The Orville appreciation thread - IE, the actual new Star Trek
- Iniciador del tema Guts Gets Some
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- Registrado
- 29 de Ene, 2022
I sort of agree that the lack of Moclan response was weak, but on the other hand they at least tried to give an explanation about why there wasn't one and tying into Isaac and the Kalon was kind of clever.
- Registrado
- 20 de Oct, 2019
Good episode. Interesting and with engaging characters.
So upfront I enjoyed this and it was well done. It takes more words to talk about the themes and politics but that shouldn't overshadow this simpler statement to express.
So Seth has a thing he likes doing which is taking a contentious political divide and mixing up a few elements so neither side of that divide can fully see itself reflected in one faction/position in the story but at the same time recognizes elements. I believe he does this with the very best of intentions, he does it well and there are no overt strawmen held up just to be demolished. With the previous episode he had voter fraud allegations, a coup and abortion politics. And it was all elegantly mixed together so that the elements could be discussed without the episode itself being partisan. This week he did the same with trans elements. And I enjoy it, even though I am partisan, because he clearly isn't putting this stuff in just so he can virtue signal and denounce people. He's clearly trying to establish dialogue and engage multiple viewpoints. Which is great. Like with Ms. Marvel which features a primarily Pakistani cast, heavy muslim elements and is great fun - it brings people in and makes people willing to listen because it's not all "white male bad". How can I put this - it's not motivated by hate but by finding common ground and seeing each other's point of view. And I applaud it.
Now that said, I have my own response to what's in there but I wouldn't change a thing in his episode. The way he mixes things up in this episode to prevent it being simple partisanship is that the girl actually was a girl until they physically altered him. Essentially he puts the "I have a real gender identity that isn't reflected in my physical body" camp on the side of bioessentialism. Both of the parents are relatable. Klyden is an ass as always but you can understand his point of view. And his fury at someone physically barring him from getting to his own son - what father wouldn't be in a blood rage at a stranger overpowering you so he could perform surgery on your child? I'd have come back with a weapon! We all would!
But, there are differences between the story here and what would play out in the real world and in this case it matters. It's not like the previous episode where the political issues would be no different in our world and the fact that it's sci-fi doesn't change that. Here the fact that it's sci-fi does. Topa reaches her conclusion that there is something "wrong" with her by herself without outside influence. If in the real world a child did that, we'd want to support that child as much as possible. Sure, without sci-fi tech we'd probably be trying to help the child come to terms with his or her body rather than letting them magically swap sex, but there wouldn't be outside influences we were concerned about. In the real world we see children encouraged to be trans, groomed online, trans made into a political thing, be influenced by drugs companies and authors and media pundits and teachers. This episode is a great story about people and I like it. But as a commentary about the current trans debate it's strangely immaterial because what we're concerned about primarily is that children are being led into something by outside forces. They're not coming to it by themselves like Topa in this episode. Nor is her decision based around gender stereotypes. She wants to be a commander - there's zero implication in this show that commander is seen as a male or female position. Nor is there anything to suggest her sex confines her orientation or even how she dressed. An adult male Moclan in a dress would probably look pretty funny to us but people in this setting would mostly shrug and be fine. For Topa, her feeling that she is female is rooted in her actual biology. That's not so in our world where a young girl at school gets told she has a "boy brain" if she wants to be a mechanic (actual example and pretty illustrative). Or a boy who is a bit effeminate or awkward finds he can get validation by declaring himself a girl. And it's certainly not like an adult male autogynophile type who turns himself into some exaggerated sexualised stereotype of femininity.
And because her desire to reconcile her physical body with her gender identity isn't rooted in gender stereotypes, isn't the result of outside influence promoting it to her; and because there's good reason to suppose that changing her body rather than helping her just become comfortable with herself actually IS the right direction for her (as opposed to years of puberty blockers, destructive surgery, etc.), then it misses most of the big aspects of the trans debate that people like myself are concerned about.
In short, few of us who get called "transphobes" really care if a guy wears a dress and we certainly don't care if a girl wants to do a stereotypically male career (so long as she's good at it - same criteria as for guys). We care that kids are groomed, we care that they are put on medical pathways that influence their decision and often physically harm them. And of course about dudes creeping on women in changing rooms or wrecking women's sports (Fallon Fox fuck you!).
So great story, great characters, very engaging. Wouldn't change anything about it. But if it's meant to examine the trans debate then it doesn't do that like some of the other Current Year stories do because unlike them the SciFi / Setting aspects meaningfully change the debate. But then not exploring those aspects might be why it's a good episode. You can't spin grooming or infertility as just a different point of view.
So Seth has a thing he likes doing which is taking a contentious political divide and mixing up a few elements so neither side of that divide can fully see itself reflected in one faction/position in the story but at the same time recognizes elements. I believe he does this with the very best of intentions, he does it well and there are no overt strawmen held up just to be demolished. With the previous episode he had voter fraud allegations, a coup and abortion politics. And it was all elegantly mixed together so that the elements could be discussed without the episode itself being partisan. This week he did the same with trans elements. And I enjoy it, even though I am partisan, because he clearly isn't putting this stuff in just so he can virtue signal and denounce people. He's clearly trying to establish dialogue and engage multiple viewpoints. Which is great. Like with Ms. Marvel which features a primarily Pakistani cast, heavy muslim elements and is great fun - it brings people in and makes people willing to listen because it's not all "white male bad". How can I put this - it's not motivated by hate but by finding common ground and seeing each other's point of view. And I applaud it.
Now that said, I have my own response to what's in there but I wouldn't change a thing in his episode. The way he mixes things up in this episode to prevent it being simple partisanship is that the girl actually was a girl until they physically altered him. Essentially he puts the "I have a real gender identity that isn't reflected in my physical body" camp on the side of bioessentialism. Both of the parents are relatable. Klyden is an ass as always but you can understand his point of view. And his fury at someone physically barring him from getting to his own son - what father wouldn't be in a blood rage at a stranger overpowering you so he could perform surgery on your child? I'd have come back with a weapon! We all would!
But, there are differences between the story here and what would play out in the real world and in this case it matters. It's not like the previous episode where the political issues would be no different in our world and the fact that it's sci-fi doesn't change that. Here the fact that it's sci-fi does. Topa reaches her conclusion that there is something "wrong" with her by herself without outside influence. If in the real world a child did that, we'd want to support that child as much as possible. Sure, without sci-fi tech we'd probably be trying to help the child come to terms with his or her body rather than letting them magically swap sex, but there wouldn't be outside influences we were concerned about. In the real world we see children encouraged to be trans, groomed online, trans made into a political thing, be influenced by drugs companies and authors and media pundits and teachers. This episode is a great story about people and I like it. But as a commentary about the current trans debate it's strangely immaterial because what we're concerned about primarily is that children are being led into something by outside forces. They're not coming to it by themselves like Topa in this episode. Nor is her decision based around gender stereotypes. She wants to be a commander - there's zero implication in this show that commander is seen as a male or female position. Nor is there anything to suggest her sex confines her orientation or even how she dressed. An adult male Moclan in a dress would probably look pretty funny to us but people in this setting would mostly shrug and be fine. For Topa, her feeling that she is female is rooted in her actual biology. That's not so in our world where a young girl at school gets told she has a "boy brain" if she wants to be a mechanic (actual example and pretty illustrative). Or a boy who is a bit effeminate or awkward finds he can get validation by declaring himself a girl. And it's certainly not like an adult male autogynophile type who turns himself into some exaggerated sexualised stereotype of femininity.
And because her desire to reconcile her physical body with her gender identity isn't rooted in gender stereotypes, isn't the result of outside influence promoting it to her; and because there's good reason to suppose that changing her body rather than helping her just become comfortable with herself actually IS the right direction for her (as opposed to years of puberty blockers, destructive surgery, etc.), then it misses most of the big aspects of the trans debate that people like myself are concerned about.
In short, few of us who get called "transphobes" really care if a guy wears a dress and we certainly don't care if a girl wants to do a stereotypically male career (so long as she's good at it - same criteria as for guys). We care that kids are groomed, we care that they are put on medical pathways that influence their decision and often physically harm them. And of course about dudes creeping on women in changing rooms or wrecking women's sports (Fallon Fox fuck you!).
So great story, great characters, very engaging. Wouldn't change anything about it. But if it's meant to examine the trans debate then it doesn't do that like some of the other Current Year stories do because unlike them the SciFi / Setting aspects meaningfully change the debate. But then not exploring those aspects might be why it's a good episode. You can't spin grooming or infertility as just a different point of view.
- Registrado
- 12 de Abr, 2021
This is a neat episode. A lot of people are already going all-in on the tranny stuff. And, there certainly are shades of this, but it's got a lot of shades of what happens to kids born with an "intersex" condition in real life. It's kind of wild what happens in some of those cases. Especially because intersex is a very varying definition to some doctors. "Dick too small? Better mangle that into a neovagina at an unripe age. Clit too big? Let's just turn that innie into an outie." Sure, some kids are flat-out hermaphrodites, and it does get complicated there, but it's an odd little quirk of the burger medical system that gets kinda overlooked. Much like the debate in this episode, the whole "they're just a child" gets overlooked a lot when some doctor makes an invasive surgery when the child is too young anyways. Since, 9/10 times, the kid ultimately does realize something's.... Off once they start hitting puberty or otherwise developing.
A very fascinating episode. Much like last week's episode with the Krill, I really like how that there's some nuance to both sides of the argument and while it is a bit schmaltzy, it never feels like it's specifically trying to alienate one side of the debate. It's nice to see something that isn't just a total strawman. I'm increasingly impressed by the shit in quality this season.
And it was nice to see my favorite TNG archetype appear. The "dickbag admiral who's not quite evil, but still an absolute cunt."
A very fascinating episode. Much like last week's episode with the Krill, I really like how that there's some nuance to both sides of the argument and while it is a bit schmaltzy, it never feels like it's specifically trying to alienate one side of the debate. It's nice to see something that isn't just a total strawman. I'm increasingly impressed by the shit in quality this season.
And it was nice to see my favorite TNG archetype appear. The "dickbag admiral who's not quite evil, but still an absolute cunt."
- Registrado
- 20 de Oct, 2019
Not contradicting anything you say but just commenting on this. The one intersex friend I had (Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome / AIS if relevant) absolutely hated the trans lobby and was pretty vocal about being co-opted by the "gender is a spectrum" brigade. I'll just quote her directly: "Intersex people have a sex. It just hasn't expressed correctly for medical reasons". I think this attitude is fairly common as I saw a statement about "WE ARE NOT TRANS" on a support website for AIS some years ago.
The absolute last thing most intersex people would want is for their condition to be used as a reason to promote transitioning to kids.
- Registrado
- 26 de Dic, 2019
Personally, I would have a episode where Bortus likes girls, and regrows the sweet moustache AND starts smoking again. Maybe he can use the simulator and live out some kind of motorcycle tough guy fantasy and get hooked on it. I want this.
- Registrado
- 12 de Abr, 2021
100% percent agree. I went to a conference about it in college, and I think a lot of the rainbow-haired folks were surprised at how vehemently NOT trans they were. Like, literally the polar opposite of their mindset.
- Registrado
- 30 de Abr, 2016
They don't have a firm time limit anymore now that they're on Hulu, and tbh we probably could've used a scene of Klyden justifying himself to Topa more than him and Bortus rehashing the same argument they already had in the episode where Topa's procedure happened in the first place
- Registrado
- 12 de Abr, 2021
The episodes are already running at like a full hour now instead of 45 minutes. So, they're already somewhat taking advantage of it. They're just not as varied as, say, Stranger Things where every episode has a wildly different runtime.
- Registrado
- 13 de Sep, 2018
The episodes being longer is the best thing that could happen to the show, it allows the writers to fully develop the stories they want to tell.
Another great episode, written and directed by Seth. Tough subject again and treated wonderfully. I'm speechless, to be honest.
When the episode ended with Topa smiling and the ship going into quantum, I still had a big smile too. This is what Trek used to do, this is what good sci-fi used to do.
Another great episode, written and directed by Seth. Tough subject again and treated wonderfully. I'm speechless, to be honest.
When the episode ended with Topa smiling and the ship going into quantum, I still had a big smile too. This is what Trek used to do, this is what good sci-fi used to do.
- Registrado
- 16 de Mar, 2019
Agree with everyone saying this was another good episode.
Kelly was particularly good in this, the conflict between trying to help Topa and respecting her parent's wishes was done well. Issac's reasoning for doing the procedure was also good. The actor playing Topa was excellent, just right, no hamming it up or that awful "precocious child" trope, it was done perfectly. I'm glad old school Trek is back. 8)
- Registrado
- 12 de Mar, 2021
No one likes Klyden
Cant wait for the Moclan propaganda they use against the Kaylon. The Kaylon are going to turn your children female. Fight to stop this corruption of our culture
- Registrado
- 2 de Ene, 2018
I thought Kelly was a bit too....passionate in this episode, but it was still very good.
Klyden was also born female IIRC, so I'm pretty sure Klyden has gone through a similar internal battle, but came to terms with it through faith and culture.
Klyden was also born female IIRC, so I'm pretty sure Klyden has gone through a similar internal battle, but came to terms with it through faith and culture.
I think the whole point is that Klyden DIDN'T come to terms with it at all and is using faith and culture as a coping mechanism to avoid thinking about it and confronting his own unhappiness in a vain attempt to not feel even worse.
He openly says that he is in constant despair due to what he was born as and would have preferred the unhappy feeling of incompleteness that Topa is going through to said despair. He is clearly deeply unhappy with himself regardless though and like all coping mechanisms its a continually growing cycle of despair and unhappiness that has him make decisions that only make him even more unhappy.
He leaves at the end less because he is wholly against Topa becoming a women and moreso because he doesn't want to be constantly reminded with what could have been had he remained female, happy and complete. He is quite simply unable to keep using his coping method that he has lived with all his life if he is directly confronted with direct evidence that it doesn't work. Hence why he wished Topa was never born to challenge his coping mechanism in the first place.
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- Registrado
- 15 de Jul, 2016
What would this episode be like if it was on Star trek discovery
- Registrado
- 30 de Abr, 2016
The entire command staff would burst into tears and emotionally support each other with hammy speeches after the Admiral told them "no, you can't transition the teenage child of our politically necessary allies".
Also Klyden would probably die an ignoble death for contrived reasons.
Also also they wouldn't have bothered with having everyone gather in the shuttle bay to watch Bortus sing to give the crew plausible deniability, because Discovery writers don't think their scenarios through to such an extent.
- Registrado
- 15 de Jul, 2016
What about the power of math?
khaine
kiwifarms.net
- Registrado
- 31 de Ene, 2021
Yeah, I was dissapointed they didn't reveal that kylden was born a woman. I think it would have made his point of view more understandable to Topa. Agreed it would have added to the emotional depth of him leaving.
Captain Autism69
kiwifarms.net
- Registrado
- 29 de Dic, 2021
The difference between The Orville and Nu-Trek is essentially that Nu-Trek is telling you what you must think, whereas the Orville has a message that's ambiguious enough that it allows discussion such as the above, and for people to draw different conclusions. And I would totally rekt the cute blonde on the bridge.
- Registrado
- 30 de Abr, 2016
God bless Seth's Roddenberry-esque insistence on putting the women he's dating/used to date on the show.
Though I'm certain if there is a season 4 she will mysteriously be written out a la Halston Sage