Undertale / Deltarune / Toby Fox Discussion

[Mrsneksnekson]

Remember, it’s been five days and Kris and Susie got 0% of that school project done.

Alphys is chapter 7 final boss and the mechanic to spare her will be writing the report and uploading it to deltarune.com

 

[Hideous K]

This is how people troon out.

Anyone remember what happen to Cosmo? he got so owned from a Nintendo championship that he became trans as a result.

... Or he developed a strong hatred for carpetmunchers and is going to do the rugpull of the century on Suselle shippers for revenge...

I hope that this is true, I would forgive Toby if he does the biggest twist of them all that would lead the Suselle shippers into a meltdown.

 

[meager]

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Ya'll couldn't behave!

I can’t believe they’re harassing Toby Fox with chairs. Not the fucking chairs!

 

[ShitLurker]

Like just to rip the bandaid off, it's a soft "end" in Chapter 5 because it flat out tells you to wait for Chapter 7 before it continues. As for whether or not you should play it, yes. Absolutely. There's certain parts that I played through that genuinely made my jaw drop. It's so good that I don't really care about any of the BS that happened in Chapter 5, fags and trannies and whatever else included, that I am still all like 99% certain that he'll make the wait worth it.

Jesus FUCK! What a cocktease! It was more compelling in 5 minutes than the whole of normal chapter 5, too bad it lasted about 10 total. I was hoping to go ballistic into town, but seems we are in double suicide territory? Though it won't be that clear cut. I got that vibe in the normal route as well, but guess Noelle wants to really join the 41 club without pooning out. Welp, guess I can start reading the thread proper again and get the memes.

Also, question for class, any expectation on if Chapter 6 and 7 release together or is it already an announced factor that they will be released separately?

 

[NSJAP]

I love how this is not even an ironic crack theory, but a real implication.

0:25

 

[electrician's apprentice]

The secret boss no one invited

0:03

 

[Incorrigible Bigotry]

This chapter has been catching a lot of flak (justifiably so) but you gotta admit it was fucking kino when the vocals cut in during the fight with Flowery.

 

[NSJAP]

 

[Gay Sex Enjoyer]

None may intrude on he who wrote the prophecy

 

[Irrational Exuberance]

None may intrude on he who wrote the prophecy

...at least when there's a sock on the door. I mean come on, man.

 

[Gay Sex Enjoyer]

...at least when there's a sock on the door. I mean come on, man.

Winging his ding

 

[Milkmaid Man]

Noelle is NOT trans

Oh, thank God.

 

[Symbol of the Chud]

especially since all other communities are too focused on trooning about how heckin' wholesomeorino the dyke relationship is.

This is easily some of the worst examples of a faggot playerbase just fundamentally ignoring literally every aspect of every character involved in a relationship I've ever seen for the most part. People playing through any unironically torturing Kris with shit like 'Noelle and you will work out' or having Noelle and Susie do all the Festival activities. Then it's ignoring the fact that Susie very clearly has no real love for Noelle at all. Her confession was "Yeah so like... I uh.... like you how you like me." because of her fucking heartbeat? Then you've finally got Noelle, who has her entire existence recontextualised by the Weird Route. She has a subconscious attraction for Susie because she sees Susie as different and dangerous. She's also somebody new to hometown. Unfamiliar. Interesting. (Not taking into account the possibility that the love is likely also being influenced by the prophecy.)
Look how quickly Noelle goes from wondering why Kris is acting weirdly as of late to fully accepting the power he helped her get, and in the aborted routes, misses that power.

I would stipulate that maybe Susie's dark worlds are fucked, because she doesn't have a soul according to Toby, on account of being a lesbian

As funny as this would be, it's unlikely. Kris literally makes all of his Dark Worlds without a soul either, and he's fine. Dark World creation functions off of Determination, anyway.

I mean with the susie-is-evil theory that would explain why Ralsei and other characters don't give much of a fuck about it, but it doesn't explain why Susie stopped caring even though she clearly did care before.

Going with the Prophecy Mindrape idea, it's also possible that the knight was never meant to summon a Titan in Chapter 4, and in doing so, nearly fucked everything up. (Gerson needed to come the fuck back to life in order for the heroes to win, and Ralsei was going full Doomer mode). Nobody is mentioning the Titan because that wasn't actually supposed to happen at all.

I honestly wonder if Kris legitimately mind-raped Susie into forgetting

I don't think Kris has that sort of power, and he's too much of a simp for Susie to do that anyway, from what we've seen.

I do agree that Susie and Kris seem way too close after literally one day of becoming friends, but I think thats probably just a legitimate flaw in Toby's writing instead of something thats going to be recontextualised later

See, here's where the Evil Susie Replacing Noelle theory can do some heavy lifting. Kris for some reason has a gay little crush for his bully sure (Why do both Kris and Noelle like the idea of abusive partners???), but spending what, a few hours in the Dark World shouldn't really be enough for Susie to think she's really that close to Kris at all. But if Susie is taking Noelle's role as The Second Hero, then it makes sense. If the first few Darkworlds were Kris and Noelle saving the world, then it's a rekindling of their childhood friendship, and a reason for them to start opening up to each other again.

There are only supposed to be three heroes at all, "At last, there was the girl" with Rudebuster doesn't actually say that this new girl is meant to be a hero at all, and we already know from Gerson she's the Dragon.
Anyway, side note about Noelle but there's a quote from Rudy in Chapter 1 that says she's afraid of Santa Claus, and then in Chapter 2 one of her in-fight interactions has her click on a link for "hot female santas". Noelle is just naturally attracted to things that terrify her for some fucking reason (Like all those women who send love letters to serial killers, in Chapter 6 I expect she'll dump Susie in favor of the Hometown Butcher)

Oh, thank God.

I will now remind you of that unused graphic in Noelle's early Cyberworld bedroom with pills scattered over the tables.

Naturally, Trannies reactions were something like "Oh my ZOG! Xhe's taking heckin estrogenic tablerinos, just like me! NOELLE TRANS!?!?!"
But now, with more context received about Noelle, they're probably just there because Noelle really fucking wants to die.

 

[Sunset Ethernia]

Oh god, oh fuck, I think Susie might have called in the hit on Onion-san.
So, here's what Onion-san says at the end of the first encounter.
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Then you show up the next day with Susie in tow?
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Susie then walks offscreen. This... feels like weird behaviour from Susie, why not at least like, try making a new friend?
Onion-san reveals the song underneath the lake and leaves and then Susie comes back.
Then the next day you visit the lake, Onion-san is missing, and Susie tells you not to bother waiting around (If you hadn't befriended Onion-san, she instead tries some rock skipping, no rush.)
Then obviously NormalNPC shows up if you leave and come back.
Then the next day, Onion-san is being cooked up at the Festival.

I know she's working for THEM. She's a GONER! I... I just can't prove it! Suzy you piece of shit!
Susie sees Onion-san and the next fucking day Onion-san is dead at the hands of gasterglowies.

 

[Kitty Cat Man]

Amalgam knight theory is fucking retarded and probably comes from niggers who haven't played the game.
The knight is obviously someone in a suit made of shadow crystals. Shadow crystals are made of abandoned dreams.

Who has the most abandoned dreams? It's either dess, because she's dead or in the game's code or whatever, or the Vessel you created because the second voice(probably Dess) cucked it out of existence
So imo, it's either Dess and her motive is "start the roaring to assert her existence" or it's just Gaster piloting the vessel we were supposed to pilot and playing this shit like a vidya. He's going for the bad ending because it's fun and he knows these Quirk Chunguses aren't real

 

[You Can't Un'Ape The Doe]

Then you've finally got Noelle, who has her entire existence recontextualised by the Weird Route. She has a subconscious attraction for Susie because she sees Susie as different and dangerous. She's also somebody new to hometown.

I really hope Toby goes the full mile with the weird route recontextualising Noelle. Obviously it's not meant to be exactly healthy, but I do think Noelle feeling like an NPC and generally being miserable should be 100% true instead of like 50% true and 50% her having a psychotic break. I think Susie x Noelle shouldn't just be "Noelle's attracted to the idea of breaking free and she needs to love Susie for other reasons too or whatever, so their relationship can work" but instead "Noelle is attracted to the idea of breaking free. She projects that onto Susie who can't actually provide that and who she doesn't even really like, so their relationship is doomed" (also ideally Susie prophecy shit enforcing it too)

The only contention is that Toby probably doesn't want to particularly validate the "raping Noelle" route, but he did also remove the rape symbolism, and it's also much more interesting for WR noelle to be a genuine reflection of what Noelle wants (like 80% of her genuine personality, 20% psychotic break) as opposed to it mostly being her having a psychotic break with a little bit of trauma.

Nobody is mentioning the Titan because that wasn't actually supposed to happen at all.

I suppose we'll have to see to what extent prophecy fuckery messes with people's minds, but even with that in mind, Susie ignoring the prophecy is pretty suspicious too, is it not? And it can't just be rationalised with the Titan thing because it doesn't seem like theres anything in the prophecy that would try to erase the character's knowledge of the prophecy. I am genuinely hoping Kris mind-raped Susie somehow at the end of chapter 4, because what else would he have been doing? That said, that wouldn't explain why she's still chill in the "aborted" (as in not proceeding in the lake) weird route since Kris seemingly didn't do anything like that at the end of chapter 4...However the aborted weird route has the whole universe reset thing so that also explains it.

I don't think Kris has that sort of power, and he's too much of a simp for Susie to do that anyway, from what we've seen.

To be fair he could have gotten the Knight, Asriel (given he seemingly has something to do with Kris and the dark fountain gang's plans if Kris trying to cockblock us from info about him is anything to go off), or someone else to help, and I think he would be willing to do it if he saw it as helping Susie, but you're probably right that he didn't.

But if Susie is taking Noelle's role as The Second Hero, then it makes sense.

I think that starts to stretch credulity for me because if everyone is being mind-raped, including Kris, then how will Toby go about the eventual conflict? I doubt he'd just make everyone revert to their previous state of disliking Susie, nor would it make too much sense if they still liked her so much. Granted with the latter I still think something could be done with that, but I don't see toby writing a story where everyone just accepts they were mind-raped by Susie (or rather I think it'd come off poorly unless it's done very well, and at that point if everyone still ends up forgiving Susie then why have the whole prophecy fuckery thing in the first place if everyone is still going to suck her cock?)

I like the idea of Kris being the only person who had genuine affection for Susie in the first place anyway. It would make the eventual conflict more meaningful because he'd be the only one whos genuine in his feelings. You could also have characters realise they're being mind-raped, but instead of losing affection for her they still retain it (including Kris), but then I think that opens up critiques from people just saying "SUSIE MIND-RAPED EVERYONE INTO LIKING HER." Granted, T*mblrgroids may deem anything offensive, and also I care more about how it's handled vs how 'tards want to interpret it.

As a side note, all the prophecy fuckery stuff is only half of the Deltarune puzzle anyway, since it doesn't even really begin to address the whole Dess and roaring knight stuff. I hope the prophecy meta-narrative fuckery susie-evil stuff will be in the forefront (as in it'll be relevant to chapter 7 regardless of the route) but it's also possible that it'd be a sidepiece to the story, or you need to do specific stuff to encounter it. In my mind the best way to handle it would be chapter 6 is all about the current prophecy stuff and all that, and then either the entirety of chapter 7 or the second half of chapter 7 is about Susie becoming the enemy because of her meta-narrative fuckery coming to light.

Chapter 2 one of her in-fight interactions has her click on a link for "hot female santas".

The deer was always a lesbian...D*ltasissies...it's over...

 

[You Can't Un'Ape The Doe]

Amalgam knight theory is fucking retarded and probably comes from niggers who haven't played the game.

At least if it's true it would mean both Kris and Noelle learned to hate Susie and find joy in making her suffer.

 

[Rungle]

i wonder what onion-san tastes like tbh

 

[Symbol of the Chud]

The deer was always a lesbian...D*ltasissies...it's over...

Hometown has fallen.
All monsters must die.

I like the idea of Kris being the only person who had genuine affection for Susie in the first place anyway.

This is a possible interpretation, because Kris for some reason really really seems to want to fuck the purple dragon, even in the ARGs. The unbreakable prophecy that refuses to change even in the warped glass of a shattered dream is definitely fucking with some stuff, it doesn't seem like it wants Kris to fall for Susie. Kris actually has a reason for liking Susie at least, what with the two of them both being natural outcasts, Susie as the dangerous looking bully who people are scared of, and Kris as the literal only member of his species in the entire town.

i wonder what onion-san tastes like tbh

Nigga tastes like onions.

The only contention is that Toby probably doesn't want to particularly validate the "raping Noelle" route,

Chapter 5 made it quite clear that the only one getting raped in that scene was Kris.

 

[You Can't Un'Ape The Doe]

Chapter 5 made it quite clear that the only one getting raped in that scene was Kris.

I think it's a bit of both, somewhat of a duel rape if you will. Rather impressive really.
I think Kris bashing the soul is also mostly meant to be from the harm we cause to Noelle, as opposed to Kris just personally feeling uncomfortable. Also Kris probably hates himself to some degree, given his whole complex about being a human surrounded by monsters (so he doesn't quite fit in), plus he probably blames himself for us raping Noelle because he's keeping the soul (even if he probably needs us to do shit related to the prophecy and allat), so I think the trash-can crashout thing is meant to be him venting his guilt over everything we've forced him to do + his own self-hatred.

I'm curious to consider the permutations of the susie-metanarrative/prophecy-fuckery theory stuff

A: Everyone is forced to like Susie, including Kris

B: Everyone is forced to like Susie except Kris who is genuine

C: No one was forced to like Susie but she's still manipulating the prophecy

And also the different variations within these sets like
1. WR Noelle is meant to be a genuine reflection of her true personality. Whilst not healthy it is legitimately freeing in some respects (this is probably the most nuanced/interesting approach, which has the added benefits of really pissing off the cunts at Tumblr, and people would probably also start to call Toby a rape apologist)
2. WR Noelle is meant to be about a 50/50 split on personality vs psychotic break. Whilst she wants to break free and allat, the way the player did it was not good for her, and the natural conclusion from this is that the better way to deal with her issues would be for her to be with Susie (This would be horrible because Suselle)
3. WR Noelle is meant to be mostly a psychotic break. She has issues but they're secondary for her and she's mostly happy. Noelle is largely just trying to rationalise to herself the fact the evil fucking BIGOT player raped her. I think this works but again the first option is the most interesting.

What other likely variations do you think there are for how the story will end, given the susie prophecy fuckery theory is true?