True Detective

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There were some funny lines in last night's episode. It's interesting how much emphasis the show puts on the 90s portion of the case given how little we know of it so far. I definitely think the second half of the season is going to really pick up the pace.

And I was worried, but Pizzolatto did a bang-up job directing, too. I was really pleasantly surprised.

This show is so damn good. I'll be assmad if my theory is wrong, though.

Also...

I think they've given us enough clues that Hayes probably killed someone, and I'm thinking it was another cop based on details from this and earlier episodes. We know from his delusion in this episode that he killed a lot of Vietcong in the war, and one of those "ghosts" (fuck, that scene was so well done) was not Vietnamese. And he said he left something in the woods and never told anyone...

And did anyone else get the feeling Hayes's son, in the 2015 timeline, is fucking the blonde host woman? As soon as Hayes mentioned her to him I got suspicious. And then she had two wine glasses in her room when he visited.
 
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I have graduated from "I will be butthurt" to "I will be mad on the internet" if
this season isn't directly connected to the first season.
Again, there are such an overwhelming number of parallels that the writers have to be doing it deliberately.

The fifth episode was Pizzolatto's second directorial job this season, and it was as well done as his first. The man might be difficult to work with, but he's very talented.

Can't wait to see what happens in the next three episodes.
 
I was really disappointed in the last episode, I thought they focused too much on Hays and his wife. Normally this wouldn't be an issue, but we didn't learn anything new about any of the characters from the dinner scene, or even the subsequent scene back home. She's very interested in advancing her career with the case, Hays doesn't want to talk about it/resents her for it, they make up and fuck. How many times, and in how many decades do we need to see them do this? Only to go into another senile moment that reveals nothing more than the last, and only brings up the same questions as before.

Also the shoot out was... Interesting... Who was that cop that just wastes a civilian clearly recovering from an explosion? Note after this he doesn't even point his gun at the house, he's still shooting civilians. Why do the hicks open fire on two suit-and-tie policemen when they're there to attack a homeless-looking native american dude? I understand "the confusion of the shootout" but honestly it was so ridiculous that it really took me out of it.

The few story beats we get about the murder/disappearance are good, but this episode definitely felt like another slow episode in a season that's been considerably slower than the previous two. Just check the previous "episode 5's" from the first two seasons. They're way further in the case, and we even know more about the characters. We're more than 50% through the season and West doesn't have nearly as much characterization as Marty or Frank got.

I like this show a lot, but the pacing of this season is a bummer.
 
I was really disappointed in the last episode, I thought they focused too much on Hays and his wife.
I like this show a lot, but the pacing of this season is a bummer.
the only thing im interested in seeing with regard to Haye's wife is finding out why he started respecting her writing after seemingly writing it off as her ambulance chasing well into the marriage. It's weird that he never read her book until 2015. Or maybe he just forgot he did.
 
the only thing im interested in seeing with regard to Haye's wife is finding out why he started respecting her writing after seemingly writing it off as her ambulance chasing well into the marriage. It's weird that he never read her book until 2015. Or maybe he just forgot he did.

We can only speculate as to why. But it should be pointed out (and maybe this is obvious) that most—not all, but most—of Hayes's anger/irritation towards his wife's writing in timeline #2 has nothing to do with her or her book. Neither are his bitterness, paranoia, and preoccupation with racial issues in the same timeline about that stuff, either. Almost all of it is about how the unsolved case is affecting him and about his resulting drinking. He promised the father he would figure it out, and he not only couldn't save the boy, he hasn't been able to solve much else about it (and partially due to internal law enforcement interference, which he can't explain or control). He's a hunter, and his prey is getting away. He's a marksman, but he can't even find a target. He's a traditional man who can't fulfill his masculine duties to keep people safe. He's used to being in control but can't control much of what's happening around him. That's killing him and his relationships.

Given all that, of course his wife treating the case like it's a fun way to play detective and enrich herself pisses him off. But it's not really about that or her. Similarly, any black man in his position (predominately white department in a largely white place) would be fighting against worries that his race is affecting everything in his life, but it's not really about that either.

As for not reading the book until later, that doesn't strike me as strange at all. Speculation: if his wife dies suddenly, this book he didn't want to read (especially not after it was published and became successful) that's all about the case he couldn't solve might, ironically, be his only remaining way to connect with her. He said in one of the recent episodes in timeline #2 that he wasn't really reading it because he "kept seeing [his] name" in the book. What did he mean by that? That seeing his name took him out of the narrative, maybe reminded him this was a money-making venture "exploiting" a real life tragedy? Or that it reminded him of his failure to live to to his responsibilities and he couldn't stand it? Regardless of the answer, in 2015 this shameful failure that's shaped his life is now a huge part of what's defined the memories from a life he's losing. It's painful to deal with the case, but it's more painful to let it go and to lose himself (and all his life's meaning) completely. So he opens the book.

I was really disappointed in the last episode, I thought they focused too much on Hays and his wife. Normally this wouldn't be an issue, but we didn't learn anything new about any of the characters from the dinner scene, or even the subsequent scene back home. She's very interested in advancing her career with the case, Hays doesn't want to talk about it/resents her for it, they make up and fuck. How many times, and in how many decades do we need to see them do this? Only to go into another senile moment that reveals nothing more than the last, and only brings up the same questions as before.

Also the shoot out was... Interesting... Who was that cop that just wastes a civilian clearly recovering from an explosion? Note after this he doesn't even point his gun at the house, he's still shooting civilians. Why do the hicks open fire on two suit-and-tie policemen when they're there to attack a homeless-looking native american dude? I understand "the confusion of the shootout" but honestly it was so ridiculous that it really took me out of it.

The few story beats we get about the murder/disappearance are good, but this episode definitely felt like another slow episode in a season that's been considerably slower than the previous two. Just check the previous "episode 5's" from the first two seasons. They're way further in the case, and we even know more about the characters. We're more than 50% through the season and West doesn't have nearly as much characterization as Marty or Frank got.

I like this show a lot, but the pacing of this season is a bummer.

Do not agree on much of your first paragraph (or that West hasn't had much character development) but it would take forever to refute it. I would have to rewatch the episode again at minimum.

The shootout was pure chaos which is why I was basically okay with how it turned out. The sped cop who started shooting the rednecks was so strange that it felt believable to me. I bet shit like that happens all too often in tense situations. And if the rednecks weren't already ready to break every law imaginable by coming to a dude's house with firearms to kill him, they then were then given a "good reason" to start shooting at the other cops ... which is, of course, the plot reason why the dead cop freaked out, so Hayes's partner could get shot in the fallout. It's a little messy, but I'm not sure it's bad writing. Maybe it would be more accurate to blame Pizzolatto's direction of the scene.

I will agree with you the last episode suffered from pacing issues, though. I'm okay with the slow buildup we've had so far and all the great character study shit, but the last episode perhaps felt too similar in tone to the one before. They really need to start moving on the case itself for the remaining episodes.

Good thing is that seems to be what the ending of the episode promises. I think we're going to see more movement in all three timelines now, and I welcome it.
 
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Yeah. It's not the fact that people are crying foul that bugs me, it's the intensity of it. Alongside weird "criticisms" like "where are the strong female characters?" which prove the complainers didn't even watch the show.

Basically, the criticism, legit and otherwise, accumulated and created a level of momentum that became self-sustaining. Now I often read nonsense comments about Pizzolatto being a terrible misogynist or whatever, and I just stop reading/listening.
Yep, I saw some of this myself.

People find something people don't like as much as the old version. Then dig into what the new version has, and zoom in on any social justice adjacent issues you can find. OK, season 2 had a female "main character". Perfect! You didn't like the season because there was as strong woman!

Personally, I hated season 2 for a lot of different reasons.
1. The theme. WTF was that theme? Some hipster dude half assedly singing some shitty song?
2. The characters were completely unlikable. Horrible pieces of shit. From cop-dad beating the shit out of some dude, to vince vaughn being some has been mafia type dude, to weird lady busting up perfectly legit porn businesses because she doesn't like sex, to the stupid gay military dude who could potentially have been the one good character.
3. The plot was absurdly muddled.
4. Did I mention the incredibly unclear plot?
5. Because it sucked, it attracted all the people insisting if you don't like it it's because you're a bigot or something.
6. All the dumb fucking thinkpieces about how it was ackshually really good and clear and you just are too dumb to understand why it's the best thing ever (You don't see that many of these kinds of articles about actually good stuff)
 
Yep, I saw some of this myself.

People find something people don't like as much as the old version. Then dig into what the new version has, and zoom in on any social justice adjacent issues you can find. OK, season 2 had a female "main character". Perfect! You didn't like the season because there was as strong woman!

Personally, I hated season 2 for a lot of different reasons.
1. The theme. WTF was that theme? Some hipster dude half assedly singing some shitty song?
2. The characters were completely unlikable. Horrible pieces of shit. From cop-dad beating the shit out of some dude, to vince vaughn being some has been mafia type dude, to weird lady busting up perfectly legit porn businesses because she doesn't like sex, to the stupid gay military dude who could potentially have been the one good character.
3. The plot was absurdly muddled.
4. Did I mention the incredibly unclear plot?
5. Because it sucked, it attracted all the people insisting if you don't like it it's because you're a bigot or something.
6. All the dumb fucking thinkpieces about how it was ackshually really good and clear and you just are too dumb to understand why it's the best thing ever (You don't see that many of these kinds of articles about actually good stuff)

People wrote shit like that defending season 2? I have only ever heard people trash it.
 
I was almost ready to get mad at this show for being this late into the season and yet continuing the slow burn... before that ending. Wow.

Shit is heating up. And if a certain revelation is coming, it has to come next week.

Episodes 4 and 5 were a chore to get through (mainly because 5 is just a repeat of Hayes having marital issues), but if the season can keep up the energy shown in this last episode then this could shape up to be a great season after all.

Not only did this episode feel like more of a payoff episode than the shootout, but it's pacing is phenomenal. The jumps in time help keep the episode fresh from scene to scene, but keep the sense of mystery alive as we get an actual shot of piecing a lot of clues together. I applaud this episode, but I feel like all of this could have come one episode sooner.

I think the thing that sets this most recent episode apart is the use of the time jumps, WHILST solving the actual fucking crime. For the first half of this season the focus has been on Hayes and his inability to deal with the past, but without the learning anything interesting about the case. I think it's fair to say that until the end of episode 5 this had been a pretty standard murder/missing person case. Now that the crime is picking up, suddenly the time skips are focusing on giving us information about the investigation and the people affected rather than Hayes arguing in front of his kids. Julie's father in this season is played by a great actor and his story has honestly been one of the more interesting and character-driven arcs that we've seen this whole season.

This episode was definitely the redeemer I needed to keep watching.
 
I absolutely loathed Season 2. It was pure trash from start to finish, irredeemable, pretentious fucking garbage with a creator who had his head so far up his ass. The dialogue was written by thesaurus, the story a bad rip-off of China town with simpletons. Every character was miserable and ret.arded. I had 0 hope for season 3.

But Jesus, he redeemed himself somehow. I don't know if he had a come to Jesus moment or a talking to or did a lot of soul searching but he went back to basics with this season. Also I'm glad he kept the very vague hints of supernatural elements, especially regarding time and space, when old Wayne sees himself in the past, he sometimes influences it in small ways (like the door opening by itself when he was in the past) and small details such as young Wayne feeling he's being watched by someone (old Wayne). Its very subtle. Its not as good as Season 1, but its pretty good. He went back to basics.

Its actually surprising, but I've rarely seen a comeback like this. The reversal of quality is night and day. They might have reigned him in a bit or he had his ego cut by a sizable amount.

EDIT:

I also think we got a major hint where the next season will be in the penultimate episode:

In episode 7, its revealed there is 100% link between Season 1 and Season 3. The interviewer mentioned similar incidents in Louisiana and Nebraska. We know what happened in Louisiana, but Nebraska is completely new.

So I have a feeling Season 4 will take place in Nebraska, with Season 2 being its own thing. So he's linking the anthology through the cultist plot instead of doing something different each time. Which is, kinda what people wanted.

So our timeline goes back to the 1970s, 1990s, 2012 and 2015. She mentions Louisiana first, meaning it was later, while Nebraska happened earlier. So my prediction for season 4 is the same time-jump narrative, with the 'modern' portion taking place between 2012 and 2015.
 
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I also think we got a major hint where the next season will be in the penultimate episode:

I think the event mentioned in Nebraska is supposed to refer to a real world alleged child prostitution ring in the 80s, which if I recall correctly got mentioned in one of the earlier episodes in the season as well. I don't believe the show will go so far as to have a season take place during those events, although clearly season 1 and 3 have both taken some influence from them and similar conspiracy theories. Who knows, though, Pizzolatto says he has a crazy idea for season 4. Given that we've seen a picture of Roland with Bill Clinton and the government cult plots, maybe we'll even get a Pizzagate season or something.

The Last Podcast on the Left has an episode on the Franklin conspiracy, part of a three part series on Satanic cults in government. Worth a listen if you're interested in that sort of thing.

This has definitely been a really solid season. I was initially skeptical of the similarity to season 1, and it still feels fairly similar, but at the same time I can't hate it because everything has been so enjoyable. The acting in particular has been phenomenal. My understanding is that the final episode will be longer than the others. I'm definitely looking forward to it, although I'm kind of sad this season is over so quickly.
 
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I have been a fan of this show since the beginning. I've defended season 2 until I'm blue in the face but this season is full of filler.

We have one episode left, and the crime has not moved beyond "It's a pedophile ring that's being covered up." We know. We've known since like episode 3 when they mention the fancy car. It has been so painful to watch them learn nothing beyond this for the entirety of the season. Interesting aspects of the crime like the "pink rooms" take us no where. When a woman tries to spell everything out to Hayes in the interview, he walks away, when they get a chance to interrogate someone actually connected to the crime, they kill him. We as an audience have learned so little about the actual case that's it's beyond frustrating.

Specifically episodes 4 and 5 have the most filler I've ever seen from the series. How many times do we need to watch Hayes and his wife argue? We already know Hayes doesn't like her working on the book, we learn nothing new about the characters from the fight after dinner. Because we saw all the same plot points in the previous episode. They fight, sometimes in front of their kids, they fuck, we learn nothing about the case. These two episodes are where the show fall way behind. But good thing that Hayes' wife learns a lot about the case. Like that it's a pedophile ring being covered up. Oh wait we knew that.

The shootout was the biggest clusterfuck I've ever seen! Cops shooting people randomly after they are CLEARLY RECOVERING FROM AN EXPLOSION, then to have the Hicks shoot at two suit and tie policemen when they were there to harass and intimidate (and probably kill) a raggidy native American guy? Everyone was shooting at everyone for pretty much no reason. I understand that there can be a lot of chaos in a shootout, but Season 2 episode 4 does that way better, as the third seasons shootout is so ridiculous that it's almost comical. But good thing the shootout taught us a lot about the crime. Like the fact that its a pedophile ring, being covered up. I hope you are noticing a pattern where big events happen, we learn nothing specific about the case, and then the big revelation is that "it's pedophiles!"

Even the twist of how it's connected to season 1. What does that tell us? That it's pedophiles? And it's being covered up? No way!

There have been a lot of interesting plot points this season. But they go no where. This is not good writing. This is actually pretty bad. Time jumps mean nothing. We watch West and Hayes make up for something we didn't see happen. Don't think that has an impact on how that reunion feels, only to have it refer to one of the most pointless interrogation scenes in the whole fucking season?? Think back to season 1's reunion between Marty and Rust, and how that reunion felt when Rust opens his little storage unit. Additionally, they could have shown us Harris's murder waaaaaay earlier. It would have been far more interesting to have the audience think the pair did something awful, making the pink rooms scene even more of a shock.

Instead Nic P. would rather time jumps arbitrarily to show us Hayes and his wife argue from decade to decade. We have learned nothing beyond "it's pedophiles". And we have one episode left.
 
I was kind of hoping that the show would build on the supernatural theme of the first season considering that Wayne has dementia, and Rust had a career-spanning drug abuse problem so there was fertile ground left fallow. So far they've done nothing with that beyond the fictional D&D book (in what, the first episode?) and the VC ghosts.

It doesn't help that we have no villain to the par of Errol, and with just 1 more episode left I doubt there will be much time to get invested into Hoyt.
 
Haha! I knew it!

This season has been a slow burn, but it's all been character development, and I don't agree that it's been retreading the same ground. Not as good as season one, but it's been great. I just don't want it to end after the next episode.
 
Ok so I just watched the last episode and

Oh my fuck can you talk about an anti-climax.

Holy shit. You build up all this mystery and then just get this shitty exposition dump. "Yeah, the wife was crazy and paid off the mom to have the daughter locked up in a basement to raise her in place of her daughter. Then one night I just let her run away. She ran off to a convent and then may or may not have died. But this explanation is so uninteresting it could have been summed up in a shitty episode of Law and Order rather than an 8 hour mini-series.

Like, seriously? Eight episodes of mystery for a fucking exposition dump that isn't at all compelling? They separated themselves for a total of 34 years over this fucking shit?

You need some serious weight for all that shit that we had to wade through. The entire fucking season was a red-herring. Let me re-iterate, this was some rando in Arkansas that owned a CHICKEN FARM. There was no magic ring of people hunting her. If she left the state she was fine. There are so many plot holes with this that it blows my fucking mind.

And you're telling me, a junkie with a record or a pro NEVER got picked up ONCE and had her prints on file? Yeah okay Pizzaman. Jesus, what a waste of talent and writing. Again. Either he was writing it and realized he was going too close to season one and veered away at the last second or he just wanted to fuck with the audience who just wanted more of Season 1 type stuff as revenge for the Season 2 hatred.

The major, major problem with this Season of True Detective is that it could be wrapped up in a 2 hour movie once you know the mystery. The problem is there is an unnecessary six hours between it. Basically you could see how this could have been massively cut down to make an effective film. As a series, it basically wastes your time with a thousand red herrings.

There's really no emotional 'punch' at the end either. We know the guy has dementia. And are we REALLY invested all that much if this girl really lived or died? I think that's the major problem. You don't get this sense of foreboding dread. And the conspiracy nonsense was...well, just nonsense. The season 1 connection amounted to an Easter egg, which is nice. But really, you shouldn't be reminding us of a better show if this is how you're going to end it. On pure exposition. The main problem, as I see it, is that the mystery was never really cohesive in the first place because it was too busy misdirecting the audience. The main villain is introduced in the last episode and a half and really doesn't have the power to pull off this cover-up or do any of the things that he does.

True Detective Season 3 is a bad mystery novel that starts out strong but just falls apart because the conclusion doesn't really justify the investment of time you put into it. Pizzaman seems like he has a really, really hard time of giving audiences what they want. I know you write for yourself, but that last episode felt like a 'fuck you lol'. I mean, for everything that came before it...it just felt like he was wasting my time. Your big reveal was TERRIBLE. My god.

In the end, he really seems to dislike the success of Season 1, its themes and is struggling very hard to get away from it. Just make a horror, Lovercraftian, vaguely supernatural on the edges cop show anthology series full of fucked up shit. That's what people fucking want. Its unique, its creative.

I just don't get blowing away all that promise and acting with one episode left. Other than he fucking choked, dislikes his audience or was afraid it was too much like season 1.

Its hard for me to make a recommendation without spoiling it. It was far better than Season 2. But mostly, the season just wastes your time. I'd recommend watching Episode 1, the episode with the fire-fight, then 7 and 8. Then you've basically got it. Skip EVERYTHING with his family. Its unimportant and just adds to the run time. It has nothing to do with the plot unlike in the first season. Its Spinning Its Wheels: The Series.

I re-watched Season 1 of True Detective. Nothing he did here holds a candle to it. Pizzaman cannot work alone. He just can't. He needs an editor and he needs someone to reign his ego in because its just not working.

Instead Nic P. would rather time jumps arbitrarily to show us Hayes and his wife argue from decade to decade. We have learned nothing beyond "it's pedophiles".

Quoting for posterity
 
If you like the two leads - Hays and Roland - I guess watching through the whole season wouldn't be a waste. The mystery, though, is a complete dud. It never really goes anywhere and just sorta fizzles out. Pizzolatto obviously wanted to recapture the fan engagement of the first season where people were seeing clues in everything and making tons of theories, so this season's filled to the brim with red herrings that go nowhere. That they wrap it up with an actual info dump is just... I can't sum up how moronic that was. Having a character literally sit down and explain everything is the sort of writing I'm sure even high school student fan fiction writers know to avoid.

Unfortunately there's already Last Jedi-esque, pseudo-intellectual articles talking about how genius it was that the show subverted our expectations.
 
This was an extremely well-written season. (Effectively managing three timelines we're jumping between like that is incredibly hard to do.) It's very close to the first in terms of quality, and lightyears beyond the second season (which I also like in spite of it's flaws). I really enjoyed it all despite being taken off guard by the ending. I think Pizzolatto was consciously writing an ending to the show he started, "closing the loop" in case the show is not renewed, and doing it on his terms. I respect that.

Though I don't blame anyone for being disappointed that the show didn't end with a shootout. The writers intentionally put us in that position by making constant, implicit calls back to season one with parallel scenes, events, and characters, so we all expected the ending to be replicated. I am not going to lie and say I wasn't waiting for the other shoe to drop throughout the final episode, for one tiny little thing to be revealed that made us realize something much worse was at work behind the scenes. For Chekhov's Gun to fire, in other words.

However, I don't think what Pizzolatto and Milch did was a mistake, either. By saying that season 3's universe is the same as season 1's, Pizzolatto is saying that true human evil is real and is as awful as you can imagine but that not every part of that universe is as dark as it might be. A lot of terrible shit happened in season 3... Child abuse. Kidnapping. Brainwashing. Multiple murders. Hell, a father lost his children (one of whom was killed), descended into alcoholic despair for a decade, and died without finding his living daughter (who popped up again only to denounce and disown him to everyone) because his wife sold her to someone else and never told him. That's dark shit... but because it never reached the levels of ritualized child sexual abuse and child murder (and because those people doing that stuff are still out there doing it, somewhere in that universe, and because this story wasn't ultimately about that), we're disappointed.

I'm not going to moralize about a bunch of people complaining the car wreck they're watching wasn't grisly enough. I felt that way about season 2. ("This is just about a bunch of criminals trafficking voluntary, legal prostitutes and killing people over corrupt land deals?!") But to be honest, I would have lost some respect for Pizzolatto as a writer if he had just delivered the True Detective version of The Force Awakens. "What you loved, just remixed!" It's a credit to him as an artist that he didn't do that, even if he kind of made us think he was.

I know there are people who don't want to hear this, but one of the differences between art and product is the artist doesn't always give you what you demand, instead delivering what they want. A prime example of that is David Lynch and the third season of Twin Peaks. Everyone involved just made the show they wanted to make and told the story they wanted to tell. It was barely a follow-up to the first two seasons of Twin Peaks. (They didn't really have the option to do a direct sequel because so much time had passed and so many actors died or lost their minds, but they could have done something more direct than what they did.) It wasn't what a lot of the fans wanted, and it made a lot of them angry. But it was what the artist delivered. And it was great. Challenging, but great.

Was this season as successful or as impactful as the first? No. But it was really well done, and I don't think the way it was finished was... "dishonest," I suppose. I do feel a little manipulated, but I'm not angry with the result, either. I liked the ending. And I definitely want more of whatever Pizzolatto wants to give us, assuming the show gets picked up again.

Misc stuff... it would be interesting to learn about the writing of this season and to see whether HBO demanded connections to the first season. I could see these same scripts happening either way, but it might explain some context behind the creation. I do think this season, while well-directed, suffered like season two by the lack of a single director's style. I wonder how much that might have changed the impact of the same scripts and actors. I also agree the "interrogation" at the end came across almost as an info dump. Not as terrible as season 2's boring "let's explain the illegal land deal" scenes, though.
 
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