Leaving Neverland - heehee

[Saffronette]

Look stan for MJ however much you want, but having a harem of preteen boys is creepy. Having mountains of porn and booze easily accessible to said harem of preteen boys is dangerous. Covering your infant's face with a blanket and dangling him from the balcony for attention is outright why did no one call CPS moment.

I myself lived in an era where I was given x amount of money to buy cigs, booze, porn rags etc as an errand for a parent/adult. Then suddenly this was not cool, and I can acknowledge that while nothing bad happened to me running these errands, these are fucked up things that should not have happened.

MJ is far from the only "historical figure" getting a revisionist spotlight. The only reason this seems so big is because people like you are making waves about it.

However manipulative and appealing to emotion the documentary was, it was not a good one, and quite obviously not factchecked. Once the manufactured shock and ew gross factor wears off, nobody is going to care.

Also if you want to talk about Weinstein, make a separate thread or go to the #MeToo thread. You insist that anyone whose attention is being held by MJ will forget completely about Weinstein. I say they are separate issues and people can hold more than one interest at a time.

Also for the people who keep insisting Jackson's estate suing HBO is on a technicality, ALL legal cases are on technicalities, and in defamation, you sue the publisher (the entity spreading the info) not just any rando who has bad opinions about you. It is why chuckefuck politicians sue Twitter, 4chan and so on.

It's not about being a stan, I just did my research on the subject and gave credible info if needed. He didn't have a harem of kids nor was he completely alone with them. Their families would be with them and at Neverland there was tons of staff. More info about those cases here.

As for the porn and booze part, it's crazy how people still misunderstand that 2005 case. People tried to use that as evidence against him, but the staff at Neverland told them what really happened. So the Arvizo boys sneaked into places where MJ wasn't present and they found a suitcase in his bedroom that had some porn mags in it. They also stole the key to wine cellar and tried to take bottles; he never gave it to them.

As for him covering his kids faces, his reasoning for it was safety because people would threaten to kill them. It was only for few years though. As for that incident with dangling his 3rd child, it was a poor decision on his part. Although it's not something you call CPS over since that only happened once and never again.

And to say that only fans are making waves about it is a little strange. It's a lot media still trying to beat a dead horse. This time people are using #metoo as a reason why we should believe everything in the documentary and act as if they're experts on child abuse. Which why I said it's weird that there's so much media attention on that and not on Weinstein.

As for the estate suing HBO, I don't agree with it. Apparently the estate warned them not to air the documentary previously and they didn't comply. If anything they should have gone after Dan Reed. Suing the two men who accused MJ wouldn't make sense since they lost their case in 2013 and still probably owe the estate money.

 

[Dysnomia]

I heard that so many stations and other media took MJ off their playlist. But I am sitting in Dunkin Donuts and B101.1 in Philly is playing his music. I remember back when the Cosby train started rolling heavy a lot of networks removed his shows. But one of the black TV networks (TV One?) did not and played the Cosby show for awhile. Then it was yanked.

I think it is silly to try to remove MJ from pop culture. This isn't ancient Egypt. You can't just scratch the names off of the walls anymore and render someone erased from history. Good grief people.

 

[Corbin Dallas Multipass]

You know, I feel like this thread has pretty well wrapped up the discussion almost completely, with all bases covered.

Except one. There is still one remaining burning question I must know.

What is @Saffronette 's opinion? If only this user would have been so kind as to state their opinion on this issue, preferably at least 5 times per page. Alas, we'll probably never know.

But Jacko did it though, obviously. You're fooling nobody shill.

 

[Popoto]

It's not about being a stan, I just did my research on the subject and gave credible info if needed. He didn't have a harem of kids nor was he completely alone with them. Their families would be with them and at Neverland there was tons of staff. More info about those cases here.

As for the porn and booze part, it's crazy how people still misunderstand that 2005 case. People tried to use that as evidence against him, but the staff at Neverland told them what really happened. So the Arvizo boys sneaked into places where MJ wasn't present and they found a suitcase in his bedroom that had some porn mags in it. They also stole the key to wine cellar and tried to take bottles; he never gave it to them.

As for him covering his kids faces, his reasoning for it was safety because people would threaten to kill them. It was only for few years though. As for that incident with dangling his 3rd child, it was a poor decision on his part. Although it's not something you call CPS over since that only happened once and never again.

And to say that only fans are making waves about it is a little strange. It's a lot media still trying to beat a dead horse. This time people are using #metoo as a reason why we should believe everything in the documentary and act as if they're experts on child abuse. Which why I said it's weird that there's so much media attention on that and not on Weinstein.

As for the estate suing HBO, I don't agree with it. Apparently the estate warned them not to air the documentary previously and they didn't comply. If anything they should have gone after Dan Reed. Suing the two men who accused MJ wouldn't make sense since they lost their case in 2013 and still probably owe the estate money.

If you think what MJ did with kids, his and others, is normal and acceptable and the environment at Neverland is a-ok "because the parents pimping the kids out and the staff who sign NDAs were there", please never ever even come near a child.

Even discounting the porn and booze, up till 2003 there was a fucking grown ass chimpanzee prone to attacking humans there.

 

[Saffronette]

If you think what MJ did with kids, his and others, is normal and acceptable and the environment at Neverland is a-ok "because the parents pimping the kids out and the staff who sign NDAs were there", please never ever even come near a child.

Even discounting the porn and booze, up till 2003 there was a fucking grown ass chimpanzee prone to attacking humans there.

Was it normal? No. Mostly because he was a socially awkward manchild who didn't grow up normally. But despite all that he didn't have the capacity to hurt children and was found not guilty. As for the parents, the ones who accused him always wanted something from him. Like money, houses, cars, etc.

Forgive me for powerleveling, but I was abused as a child. It wasn't any strange neighbor down the road, it was my own parents. For some reason people think abuse will make you abusive to others, but I don't agree with that.

So to say I shouldn't be around children over an honest opinion is baffling to me. I work with kids on occasion and one thing you do have to look for is signs of abuse. You'd be surprised at how many parents would give excuses as to why their child deserves to be beaten.

What bothers me is that how people trivialize horrible abuse that happens to children everyday and use that to falsely accuse innocent people. It makes it easier for real predators to slip under the radar and continue to harm others. So if anything I'm against people lying about abuse for personal gain.

 

[murgatroid]

I think people don't realize how easy it is for some people to lie. There is no hard evidence of abuse other than their word. And these same two people convincingly said before they were never abused under oath. Shows how great their ability to lie is. MJ's estate is brought up in the OP but there is also a huge profit motive for both men.

In their interviews it sounded like they were both more bothered by losing Michaels attention and not being in the spotlight than they were by the actual abuse. They both sound like they are bitter that they are nobodies and are riding the wave of the #metoo movement which blindly accepts any accusation as fact/#brave and gives them some newfound attention. I think kf users should be more aware than most how attracted some people are to getting attention.

I'm mostly being devils advocate. Personally I think it's impossible to really know unless I see some more convincing evidence. However, if it walks like a duck...

Also, for levity

 

[Starscreams Cape]

Was it normal? No. Mostly because he was a socially awkward manchild who didn't grow up normally. But despite all that he didn't have the capacity to hurt children...

You didn't know this guy. How can you claim that? The not guilty thing is a bit of a grey area. Jussie Smollet was so "not guilty" that they didn't even charge him. Am I supposed to pretend that I don't know what I know about him and his bullshit story? Or OJ Simpson?

My rule of thumb - when it comes to normal people, generally speaking "not guilty" means they are not guilty of the crime.

When it comes to celebrities, "not guilty" may or may not mean being not guilty of the crime.

 

[cuddle striker]

If you think what MJ did with kids, his and others, is normal and acceptable and the environment at Neverland is a-ok "because the parents pimping the kids out and the staff who sign NDAs were there", please never ever even come near a child.

Even discounting the porn and booze, up till 2003 there was a fucking grown ass chimpanzee prone to attacking humans there.

my god I forgot about the fucking chimp.

that memory, it changes everything.

 

[Saffronette]

You didn't know this guy. How can you claim that? The not guilty thing is a bit of a grey area. Jussie Smollet was so "not guilty" that they didn't even charge him. Am I supposed to pretend that I don't know what I know about him and his bullshit story? Or OJ Simpson?

My rule of thumb - when it comes to normal people, generally speaking "not guilty" means they are not guilty of the crime.

When it comes to celebrities, "not guilty" may or may not mean being not guilty of the crime.

I didn't say that I knew him, I was going off years of evidence and videos that are publicly available to everyone that proved that he wasn't guilty. Like I said before the people who accused him did it for monetary gain and it still applies to what's going on now.

Safechuck's story is falling apart because he claimed that he was abused in a train station that didn't even exist until 1994. On top of that you still have Dan Reed saying that his "abuse" supposedly ended when he was 16-17. It's ridiculous that people aren't questioning their motives or credibility.

'Leaving Neverland' Reportedly Incorrect on Key Detail

A Michael Jackson biographer is poking holes in one of the accuser's stories.

www.complex.com

 

[murgatroid]

Was I the only person who thought Safechuck was 1000% gay up until the moment they revealed he had a wife? I bet his repressed homosexuality could be responsible for what his wife says are his psychological problems.

 

[Shokew]

I barely made it through part 1 of that 2-part so-called rape documentary and I still feel MJ's musical stylings and originality are what we need more of IRL when it comes to music, not less.

Also, it's clear this was done for monetary gain by those claiming MJ touched him like that. I can't believe I fell for such a ruse as this. I'll aim to not let it happen again anytime soon, either.

 

[ColorfulCassowary]

If you think what MJ did with kids, his and others, is normal and acceptable and the environment at Neverland is a-ok "because the parents pimping the kids out and the staff who sign NDAs were there", please never ever even come near a child.

Even discounting the porn and booze, up till 2003 there was a fucking grown ass chimpanzee prone to attacking humans there.

I wanna hear more about this chimpanzee.

 

[Clockwork_PurBle]

This thread still going at it?

 

[Saffronette]

I wanna hear more about this chimpanzee.

Bubbles? He was with MJ a lot during the 80s. He had a fair amount of exotic pets like pythons and llamas. As for Bubbles, he was taken to a sanctuary when he became an adult and is still alive to this day.

 

[Popoto]

I wanna hear more about this chimpanzee.

Bubbles was an ex-lab chimp originally living at the Jackson family home. He was in Neverland between 1988 and 2004. Since he never was exposed to a chimpanzee mother, and MJ being the dipshit he was, Bubbles became poorly socialized by both chimp and human standards, with no fear/deference toward humans. He bit, kicked and scratched staff and snuck into all sorts of things like candy bars and booze.

Yes, the booze was so poorly kept in Neverland that a fucking chimpanzee could get into it.

The one saving grace of Bubbles is that he was trained to use a toilet, so he didn't go around shitting in his hand and flinging it at people.

Bubbles' time at Neverland came to an end essentially because Michael got attacked by Bubbles. He was initially fobbed off to a private sanctuary, then that folded up and he was shuffled to a more generic ex movie animal sanctuary.

Every once in a while one of the lesser Jacksons visit the sanctuary he is housed at. Bubbles, being the poorly socialized shithead he is, does not give a single fuck but they still coo about how Bubbles "recognizes" and "pines after" lesser Jacksons. You get the feeling the sanctuary is making this shit up in order to get some sort of support payments for Bubbles' upkeep - after all, any memories of a lesser Jackson would have been from 30+ years ago.

Honestly, the two moneygrubbing cunts talking so much about the rape and not a word of fucking Bubbles literally chimping out in Neverland should tell you everything about the fact-checking integrity of Leaving Neverland. Neverland, even Jackson's bedroom suite floor or Jackson's ensuite bathroom, was never a place you could hide away with someone. It was chaos everywhere.

Even the Wikipedia article on Bubbles is extremely derisive, despite watering down all the salacious parts as Wikis tend to do.

 

[Dysnomia]

Bubbles was an ex-lab chimp originally living at the Jackson family home. He was in Neverland between 1988 and 2004. Since he never was exposed to a chimpanzee mother, and MJ being the dipshit he was, Bubbles became poorly socialized by both chimp and human standards, with no fear/deference toward humans. He bit, kicked and scratched staff and snuck into all sorts of things like candy bars and booze.

Yes, the booze was so poorly kept in Neverland that a fucking chimpanzee could get into it.

The one saving grace of Bubbles is that he was trained to use a toilet, so he didn't go around shitting in his hand and flinging it at people.

Bubbles' time at Neverland came to an end essentially because Michael got attacked by Bubbles. He was initially fobbed off to a private sanctuary, then that folded up and he was shuffled to a more generic ex movie animal sanctuary.

Every once in a while one of the lesser Jacksons visit the sanctuary he is housed at. Bubbles, being the poorly socialized shithead he is, does not give a single fuck but they still coo about how Bubbles "recognizes" and "pines after" lesser Jacksons. You get the feeling the sanctuary is making this shit up in order to get some sort of support payments for Bubbles' upkeep - after all, any memories of a lesser Jackson would have been from 30+ years ago.

Honestly, the two moneygrubbing cunts talking so much about the rape and not a word of fucking Bubbles literally chimping out in Neverland should tell you everything about the fact-checking integrity of Leaving Neverland. Neverland, even Jackson's bedroom suite floor or Jackson's ensuite bathroom, was never a place you could hide away with someone. It was chaos everywhere.

Even the Wikipedia article on Bubbles is extremely derisive, despite watering down all the salacious parts as Wikis tend to do.

He had Bubbles for longer than I thought he did.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bubbles_(chimpanzee)

At Jackson's 2005 trial, jurors learned from a videotaped interview with Jackson that his chimpanzees would help him with housekeeping chores. "They run around, help me clean the room. They help me dust, clean the window," Jackson stated. Jackson's housekeepers testified that they disapproved of the chimpanzee behavior. One housekeeper told of how she had to clean feces hurled at the bedroom wall. Another described a chimpanzee tearing off his diaper before crawling into Jackson's bed.

Some people forget thast our closest relatives are still animals. Sure you can put a sweater on them but they are not people and can't be expected to act like them.

MJ had several other chimpanzees and I assume they were all eventually farmed out to sanctuaries. He treated Bubbles like a spoiled child and got a bad return. After all, it's not like he had to clean up the mess. He had servants.

In the 2003 documentary Living with Michael Jackson, Jackson told journalist Martin Bashir that Bubbles had become pugnacious.[32] He was moved to an animal sanctuary over fears he might attack Jackson's newborn son, Prince Michael II.[nb 1][34]Jackson bought two more baby chimpanzees, Max and Action Jackson; the public believed these chimpanzees were also Bubbles.[1] Bubbles' removal was a source of regret for Jackson, who stated that chimpanzees could live for up to 60 years. During the interview, Bashir was also told of how Jackson had planned to hold a "celebrity animal party" for Bubbles. Cheeta, the chimpanzee from Tarzan, Benji and Lassie were to be invited.[35]
Bubbles was relocated to Bob Dunn's ranch in Sylmar, California.[4][36] "Bubbles is an adult chimp and a wild animal," Dunn stated at the time. "We don't let him out to play."[36] According to CNN, Jackson and his children visited Bubbles, and also played with the other animals at the ranch.[36] "[Jackson] still acts like a kid around them", Dunn said.[36] The Washington Times, however, claimed Jackson did not visit Bubbles, despite Jackson's representative having stated that he would like to meet him again.[37] Shortly afterward, in December 2003, it was claimed that Bubbles had attempted suicide.[nb 2][42][43]He was supposedly taken to a hospital in time to be saved.

So apparently Bubbles tried to an hero.

I have heard of animal suicides. But if there is any truth to this, most likely he was so wild from lack of training and socialization that he hurt himself or had self harm issues from that poor keeping.

So I have heard that in international versions of Leaving Neverland some parts have been cut because they were found to be false. Does anyone know what was cut and why? People just say scenes were cut for falsities. But they never mention specifics.

 

[RG 448]

You know, I feel like this thread has pretty well wrapped up the discussion almost completely, with all bases covered.

I’m upset that this has done nothing to bring us closer to understanding how he faked his death and where he’s been hiding all this time.

 

[Popoto]

So I have heard that in international versions of Leaving Neverland some parts have been cut because they were found to be false. Does anyone know what was cut and why? People just say scenes were cut for falsities. But they never mention specifics.

I know for a fact that when it aired in Australia, the "secret disney wedding" part was taken out, and so were the claims of some of the stuff they allegedly got from Michael to bribe them into sex (they claimed it was the jacket/item/whatever). The rest were more like, cut choppily to adjust for commercial breaks, and they did that really annoying "will we find out if x or y" narration actually eating up content.

 

[AnOminous]

I’m upset that this has done nothing to bring us closer to understanding how he faked his death and where he’s been hiding all this time.

He's with Elvis on a small planet orbiting Aldebaran. Everyone knows that.

 

[Bambi Sammich]

I feel like a jackass for crawling into this thread now since it seems like its on the verge of dying. But I want to ask you guys about Aaron Carter. He says Jackson did something inappropriate to him but we're going to have to wait til his book comes out to see what that was.

Anyone think what Aaron will say will be valid? Or is this a disgusting attempt at shilling his book? At first I thought Aaron is probably lying because at the start of this LN business he made a video wailing on Wade Robson. But over time I've begun to think that maybe, just maybe, people really do have repressed skeletons and are simply too scared to come forward. Maybe? I'm on the side of Jackson being innocent by the way but I don't want to be a cruel silencer of the truth if there is any truth to these allegations.