Debate user The_Cowcel about incels.

[AMHOLIO]

My advice is that you should get disability because you're too autistic to function.

My advice is for him to stop posting on Kiwi Farms if he's accomplishing fuck all by aruging with others.

 

[General Patton]

My advice is for him to stop posting on Kiwi Farms if he's accomplishing fuck all by aruging with others.

It's not helping him. In all honesty, it's too much autism.

 

[Zev Bellringer]

Do you fucking know what it's like to spend most of your life obsessing over a goal

Maybe stop doing that, then. Get different goals.

 

[draggs]

What is there for me to learn? I know how to drive, I'm just bad at it, besides that I had no choice in the vehicle I drive. I'm not hampered by a lack of knowledge, but a lack of ability.

Being "bad" at driving to the nature and degree you are has three possible causes:

1. Lack of experience
2. Bad habits: NOT PAYING ATTENTION. PUT YOUR PHONE DOWN, DON'T SLACK-JAWED STARE AT YOUR RADIO/OTHER CONTROLS, KEEP YOUR EYES ON THE ROAD RETARD
3. Physical factors: (Much) lower than average hand-eye coordination, spatial awareness, depth perception, etc. Which can also be caused by lack of experience

Just like your social life, your bad driving is almost certainly caused by a combination of these three factors. Which will only change with proper amounts of time devoted to correct efforts

 

[Friend of Dorothy Parker]

It's not helping him. In all honesty, it's too much autism.

Fair point. You'd think from 5 years on this site I'd know that autism, depending on variety, often contains an impenetrable, fixed stubbornness. But I have a non-autistic stubbornness that has a deep rose-colored tint.

 

[draggs]

But that's not even what incels are, we are trying to ACHIEVE societal norms all the while society is preventing us from reaching said goals.

What is so special about you that society, whatever that is, decided, however that happened, to prevent you from reaching your goals? What about the 99.9999% of other people that society didn't decide to prevent from reaching their goals of having relationships, both platonic and romantic?

But if life is miserable and work is suffering then why even live? If we are suffering for reasons that are outside of our control and in the control of others then why should we be the only ones to die?

Some of you are cool, don't go to school tomorrow energy

The ability to get a woman it crucial to the ability to be fulfilled in life and without it we are socially crippled and looked down on everywhere we go, we can't even hide that we're incels because our desperation consumes everything else about us. We are tortured for the crime of being sexually unwanted by women who have nothing forcing them to settle. Women can't relate because even when they are single they aren't cut out of the gene pool because there's always a man willing to fuck them, the same can't be said for an incel who has spent most of his life focused on getting a woman and who has been alienated from his friends and family due to that desperation.

Here's a little tip: no one is looking down on you. No one is torturing you. BECAUSE THEY DON'T KNOW AND DON'T CARE. You are perpetually stuck in high school, and even there MOST PEOPLE DO NOT CARE IF TOMMY FROM ART CLASS IS A VIRGIN

You're blaming your anti-social behavior on anti-social results. Cart is before the horse again. If you act like an unpleasant weirdo because you've never got pussy and people don't like you after experiencing your unpleasant weird behavior, they don't dislike you because you've never got pussy. You don't have to be an unpleasant weirdo because you've never got pussy. Ever consider that? Learn ways to pleasantly behave, and then behave pleasantly regardless of how you feel inside. Fake it til you make it really works here because changing the way you behave isn't about changing you inside by itself, it's about garnering positive reaction from others. That positive reaction is what changes you inside

It's also worth noting the differences in the types of jobs men and women work, men work in fields with uncomfortable conditions, high work loads, and risks of injury and death, women get easy jobs where they basically just have to look pretty and do easy shit in an airconditioned buiding all the while making as much or more than men risking our lives which means that these sluts have no reason to settle for anything but the men they think they deserve because women aren't desperate for sex because they know they can get it if they just lower their standards.

Women like men who work hard at difficult jobs. Such men are usually in shape even if the job is not physically difficult per se, such men have a determination and force of character that women find attractive. I know you have never had a difficult (physically or otherwise) job you have worked hard the way you complain about them

We're only "creepy" because we're sexually unwanted and can't get a woman. It's nothing to do with our behavior, our behavior is caused by sexual selection. Do you fucking know what it's like to spend most of your life obsessing over a goal that everyone around you seems to have achieved effortlessly yet which you can make no progress in? Do you know what it's like to be abandoned by all of your friends and cast out by your family just because you've had the audacity to beg for help and advice achieving this goal that everyone one of them had succeeded effortlessly? No you haven't.

So long as you put the cart before the horse you will never succeed. Try putting the horse in front to haul your cart for once

Being successful with the opposite sex is not effortless, or even easy, for anyone. You know how many 10/10 Chads and Stacys have had 100% fairy tale relationships filled with nothing but butterflies and endless orgasms? How many have had endless casual sex that satisfied their every emotional need for companionship? Had no fights with their boyfriend or girlfriend or husband or wife, no self-doubt, no funks, no bad days (or weeks or months or even years), no self-loathing ever? Zero people have had that life. Everyone who is not an incel has had crushes on people who did not reciprocate, has had relationships that were almost nothing but one fight after another, has had relationships that crashed and burned, has had relationships that simply didn't work out, has been down on themselves. They bore down and took care of their business anyway. You don't. If you never will, just kill yourself

 

[General Patton]

Fair point. You'd think from 5 years on this site I'd know that autism, depending on variety, often contains an impenetrable, fixed stubbornness. But I have a non-autistic stubbornness that has a deep rose-colored tint.

The longer I stay on here, the more I realize that certain people here are way too autistic to the point that I wonder how they even function daily.

 

[AMHOLIO]

The longer I stay on here, the more I realize that certain people here are way too autistic to the point that I wonder how they even function daily.

At this point, I think it's clear that he doesn't. He's hardwired himself in and blinds himself to the world around him because it is less painful in the short term for him than changing his behavior. He can perform basic tasks of self care

@ the Cowcel: get better. If you do end up wanting to end it all, do not take anyone else with you. You will be bullied for being so whiny and pathetic you had to take your self hatred out on others like a total mongoloid. Your IQ is "high", but your social skills and intrapersonal skills especially are at a near 0. A group home with other autistic people would be your best bet, and after a certain point, maybe you should face the fact that you don't deserve a woman. No one deserves a partner for any reason. You are chosen based on mutual interests and build trust and respect. Maybe you just don't have the qualities needed for a relationship, period, and need to stop trying.

 

[The_Cowcel]

How not to hit fucking stationary cars, obviously. For example, stay off your damn phone; learn to judge the size of a parking spot; park where there is plenty of room. Just little things like that. Ffs.

The phone incident was almost a decade ago(and it happened because I was trying to figure out how to hang up instead of taking the call, I had just got my first cell phone at the time), I usually try to avoid places with crowded parking lots but in the cases I mentioned the parking lots were pretty full and I wouldn't have even gone out to these places if not for being told to. I try to minimize risks where ever possible

I encourage you to go back through this entire thread and write down (c&p, whatever) every single suggestion you have received to do things wholly within your control. Then see which of them you have actually done, when, and for how long. In detail.

I'll do that, but how am I even meant to know how long spent trying is enough and how do I tell which options are more likely to work out when nothing I've done has given me any indications of success?

The point of getting real and quantifying what you claim already to have done and failed at doing is that it removes the emotion (hopelessness, other Werther-y despair, etc.) from the equation. Just hard facts. Dealing with actual facts cuts off your easy escape of waving your hand and stating (and maybe even believing) generalities not based in fact or effort. And doing exactly that (no fact-based hand-wavkng) is your twistedly comforting cop-out. If you can't look at the hard truth rather than the assumed truth or stories you tell yourself, then all of your protests are convenient lies, to others and to yourself.

My arguments aren't entirely without fact though, nothing I've tried has ever worked for meeting women. I'm not sure how looking back on my past failures is meant to remove the emotions from the equations.
I've reread most of the thread and most of the genuine advice is relating to my mental state and lack of personality both of which I don't really know how to fix, I'm going to therapy but it's such a slow process and has never helped me in the past. I am going to the gym on average three or four times per week and tend to work out for 30 minutes at a time

You are not unique in having and reflexively employing these distortions. M9st people do, to varying degrees. You, to a very high degree. There are a ton of resources out there to help with this. Best done with a coach or therapist but not necessary at all. You just need to drop your own fixed assumptions and listen.

I'll try, but it's hard when reality actually does line up with these alleged distortions, my life since childhood has consisted of almost exclusively negative experiences and a lack of interest. People keep telling me to look back on my life but I can't really remember a time when things were different.

You're directionless because you choose to be - you want one thing to an unhealthy, obsessive degree, which makes you ridiculous (read Werther; the character is ridiculous), have zero reasonable concept on how to get to it or any healthy place, and you don't have good goals.

Sure, but that one thing I want is something most others seem to just luck into without nearly the amount of effort and thought I put into it. I've tried to ask others how I would get to that goal but typically it just results in being told to give up, to do things that I'm already doing or to do something that I just can't whether due to lacking the prerequisites(usually a social life or interests) or just being too nervous to act on the direction I have been given.

See above on doing an honest lookback.

And if you reject independence, guess what you will never/ forever be?

I don't even mind being dependent, I don't think I have the energy or motivation to live an independent life, I hate being left alone, I have no direction, my only goal is something that seems constantly out of reach and I have little motivation to do anything beyond the bare minimum.

I've done an honest look back and all of my attempts at independence lead nowhere and even then I was usually only going out because I was told to by someone else.

The time is not ripe for you to be thinking about or formulating theories on these things, then. Again, your mental focus and energy is being placed on the wrong things.

Well then what should I be thinking about? I'm clueless when it comes to interacting with women and the typical flow of interaction.

My advice is that you should get disability because you're too autistic to function.

Already on it, it's a horrible way to live though, the pay isn't enough to be able to survive on if not for having family letting me rent a room for below market rates and the savings limit means that I can't build up a safety net for myself and there's a constant need to find a way to stay below the limit

Here's a little tip: no one is looking down on you. No one is torturing you. BECAUSE THEY DON'T KNOW AND DON'T CARE. You are perpetually stuck in high school, and even there MOST PEOPLE DO NOT CARE IF TOMMY FROM ART CLASS IS A VIRGIN

I'm being constantly tortured mentally by the inability to get the one thing I'm stuck obsessing over, and people do know I'm a virgin because my desperation for a woman is evident in every part of my world view and outlook on life.

You're blaming your anti-social behavior on anti-social results. Cart is before the horse again. If you act like an unpleasant weirdo because you've never got pussy and people don't like you after experiencing your unpleasant weird behavior, they don't dislike you because you've never got pussy. You don't have to be an unpleasant weirdo because you've never got pussy. Ever consider that? Learn ways to pleasantly behave, and then behave pleasantly regardless of how you feel inside. Fake it til you make it really works here because changing the way you behave isn't about changing you inside by itself, it's about garnering positive reaction from others. That positive reaction is what changes you inside

I already try that but it's never got me anywhere with regards to women or having a social life. Just being pleasant isn't enough to be likable when I have no personality besides just trying to be tolerated. Besides that I still struggle to find situations that could lead to any sort of relationship developing, my social interactions are rare and always very brief and I don't know how to change that.

Being successful with the opposite sex is not effortless, or even easy, for anyone. You know how many 10/10 Chads and Stacys have had 100% fairy tale relationships filled with nothing but butterflies and endless orgasms? How many have had endless casual sex that satisfied their every emotional need for companionship? Had no fights with their boyfriend or girlfriend or husband or wife, no self-doubt, no funks, no bad days (or weeks or months or even years), no self-loathing ever? Zero people have had that life. Everyone who is not an incel has had crushes on people who did not reciprocate, has had relationships that were almost nothing but one fight after another, has had relationships that crashed and burned, has had relationships that simply didn't work out, has been down on themselves. They bore down and took care of their business anyway. You don't. If you never will, just kill yourself

You know what all of those scenarios have in common? The presence of a relationship which is successful compared to my total lack of relationship experience. I would gladly take a shitty relationship over none at all because at least that would be a new experience.

 

[Butterschmalz]

Imagine living in a society that is 50% fuckin whores and OF hoes and 50% incels? What you gonna do? How you wanna fix it? By working on yourself? Insisting on having sex? Who created that kind of society?
Anyway the tension is unbearable. Fuckin love it.

 

[MazonLabs Recruitment Rep]

The best smirking revenge against people like Cowcel isn't torturing, killing, ect..., it's actually letting them get into a relationship and witnessing the moment where it clicks in their brains that sex doesn't solve anything except your need to nut, and relationships are actually messy and complicated things.

 

[draggs]

I'm being constantly tortured mentally by the inability to get the one thing I'm stuck obsessing over, and people do know I'm a virgin because my desperation for a woman is evident in every part of my world view and outlook on life.

Tortured mentally by yourself. No one knows what your world view and outlook on life is unless you tell them or your behavior allows them to make inferences. Change your behavior. Talk to people about sportsball or music or what fucking ever, anything that is not your misery at being foreveralone. I don't care that you don't care about those other things. Do it anyway. It's not as difficult as you make it out to be. No joke, you can get away with responding "Yeah" at least half the time. The rest, you can litrully make something up, not an essay, not a paragraph, a single sentence (or two) that sounds relevant and plausible and agreeable, and guess what? People will respond positively because you have shown you are paying attention to them, that you care about what they have to say. People like to hear themselves talk, people like to think other people are listening. Give them what they want. You think this is impossible. It's ridiculously easy. You are convinced that anyone talking to you is being fake, so you think they're thinking the same when you talk to them. Not the case

I already try that but it's never got me anywhere with regards to women or having a social life. Just being pleasant isn't enough to be likable when I have no personality besides just trying to be tolerated. Besides that I still struggle to find situations that could lead to any sort of relationship developing, my social interactions are rare and always very brief and I don't know how to change that.

When your preconceived notion for any soshul interaction is that the best you can achieve is being tolerated, you've already set yourself up for failure. You're also setting yourself up for not properly responding to any treatment from someone else beyond bare toleration, to anyone showing you any kind of affection. You need professional medical treatment, you are clinically depressed to the max. As are most incels, depressed to the point where you will also make excuses for why you won't try treatment. Go to your doctor and take your damn pills. Go talk to a therapist. And not one who will just ask you how your week went blah blah blah, one who will teach you techniques to calm yourself down physically, and techniques to control your thoughts. Then fucking do them

You know what all of those scenarios have in common? The presence of a relationship which is successful compared to my total lack of relationship experience. I would gladly take a shitty relationship over none at all because at least that would be a new experience.

Good! Then go out and get in a god damn relationship already

 

[AMHOLIO]

Imagine living in a society that is 50% fuckin whores and OF hoes

Does that mean your mom has an onlyfans?

 

[Friend of Dorothy Parker]

I wouldn't have even gone out to these places if not for being told to.

My God, man-child, take some responsibility.

I'll do that, but how am I even meant to know how long spent trying is enough and how do I tell which options are more likely to work out when nothing I've done has given me any indications of success?

Get the data first, then come back.

I'm not sure how looking back on my past failures is meant to remove the emotions from the equations.

The point is focusing on data, not emotions, as a first step, so you can objectively assess things (or listen to those who are in a better position to evaluate that data...then listen to them).

I love emotion, but emotional overlays like you're giving only protect and obscure (or alternatively, paint a more dire or distorted picture than reality). Data tells its own tale. You look at the two together, and you may gain some real insight.

I've reread most of the thread and most of the genuine advice is relating to my mental state and lack of personality both of which I don't really know how to fix, I'm going to therapy but it's such a slow process and has never helped me in the past. I am going to the gym on average three or four times per week and tend to work out for 30 minu

Do the exercise. Don't peruse or summarize or anything else. First: data.

I've tried to ask others how I would get to that goal but typically it just results in being told to give up, to do things that I'm already doing or to do something that I just can't whether due to lacking the prerequisites(usually a social life or interests) or just being too nervous to act on the direction I have been given.

What else do you think there is? I am challenging whether you've truly given the needed level of "try" in every single area. I also challenge your ability to discern between shitposting and real advice. I also challenge the "impossibility" of things - which tbh is based on your own subjective and fixed views [never a reliable source; if it were reliable, you wouldn't be struggling].

I also suggest that "I'm too nervous" is a starting point that you are confusing for an end-point. IT'S NOT ALWAYS GOING TO BE EASY. And there are no guarantees, ever. If you accept those and some other truths, you'll potentially be in a better place to create some actual improvement in your life.

I don't even mind being dependent, I don't think I have the energy or motivation to live an independent life, I hate being left alone, I have no direction, my only goal is something that seems constantly out of reach and I have little motivation to do anything beyond the bare minimum.

I've done an honest look back and all of my attempts at independence lead nowhere and even then I was usually only going out because I was told to by someone else.

Well, this is an obstructive belief for your future betterment. If you are not capable of being fully independent, that's one thing (and possibly workable). But if you are theoretically capable but you just languidly or lazily don't want to bother or it's "too hard," or excuse #65397, then you might as well pack up any hopes of life changing. In that case, make peace with current situation now, and retire being distracted by want for something better. Because unless and until you are ready not to be lazy and passive, you're just wishing on a star (and making yourself miserable as a result).

Well then what should I be thinking about? I'm clueless when it comes to interacting with women and the typical flow of interaction.

I have said it multiple times - not girls and not games/ internet, to start. What you need to focus on is opening your mind to the reality that you have not figured things out correctly, and that your first order of business needs to be reforming your thought framework. No more obsession that gets in the way of progress, no blaming others, no self-pity, no certainty you've figured out yourself, women, or life. You need to replace the things currently providing your negative input or encouraging passivity with things that demand the opposite from you.

Critically, you need to stop focusing on some idealized end-goal and instead focus on intermediate steps of making yourself stronger, constitutionally, than you are now. You also need to focus on learning not to insist on guaranteed outcomes for something to be deemed by you to be worthwhile. What I'm talking about is letting go of ego/superego and being fully receptive to a complete change in thought/ framewirk/ understanding of the world.

And you will resist, but I ask: how is your current approach working for you? (Rhetorical.).

being constantly tortured mentally by the inability to get the one thing I'm stuck obsessing over, and people do know I'm a virgin because my desperation for a woman is evident in every part of my world view and outlook on life.

So stop talking about it, geez. No one in your life wants to hear it, first of all; and second of all, why would you lead with a self-perceived weakness you don't want people to mention or focus on?

And listen, I have a never-launched cousin. Very smart, objectively attractive and bearing all the physical aspects that some men presume women care about above all else (6'1", fit, full head of hair at 50, not even a hint of Norwood in the building). He also has some esoteric and cool interests and activities, though they're mostly solitary pursuits. At 50, he lives with his parents. In many regards, he feels trapped and miserable, which is wrenching to know - though tbh, he also does not care for his aging parents as he should or contribute to the household as an ambulatory grown man should. I love him, and I don't pry much, bc I know he has a painful life in certain ways (though blissfully will never face homelessness, the lack of a full pantry, or people to buy him clothes occasionally (he doesn't care much about clothes, but things wear out) or cover his car insurance or tailor meals to his preferences).

But I will tell you this: the LAST thing I think about when I think fondly - or worriedly - about him is whether he has had sex, or the relative possibility that he has not. As a person who is not he, IDGAF about his sexual habits or experience. It has zero bearing on my appreciation of, high esteem for, or love for him. Neither do his loving parents or anyone else. His sex/ lack of sex is so far down the list of things to pay attention to or care about, it doesn't even register a faint ping. NO1CURR, so give your acquaintances a break and stop making them think about it. All they're seeing as a problem is a guy with an obsession and dedication to stubbornness and neediness, not a guy whose virginity is itself a problem.

I still struggle to find situations that could lead to any sort of relationship developing, my social interactions are rare and always very brief and I don't know how to change that.

Step 1: stop pulling out all reasons you can't do x or be in some situation, and stop relying on them as your security blanket.

 

[draggs]

I have said it multiple times - not girls and not games/ internet, to start. What you need to focus on is opening your mind to the reality that you have not figured things out correctly, and that your first order of business needs to be reforming your thought framework. No more obsession that gets in the way of progress, no blaming others, no self-pity, no certainty you've figured out yourself, women, or life. You need to replace the things currently providing your negative input or encouraging passivity with things that demand the opposite from you.

Critically, you need to stop focusing on some idealized end-goal and instead focus on intermediate steps of making yourself stronger, constitutionally, than you are now. You also need to focus on learning not to insist on guaranteed outcomes for something to be deemed by you to be worthwhile. What I'm talking about is letting go of ego/superego and being fully receptive to a complete change in thought/ framewirk/ understanding of the world.

What he needs to focus on is the good old not putting pussy on a pedestal. If he approaches every interaction with a woman (a woman he would be interested in sexually) as some kind of do or die situation where the doing is getting laid and the dying is not, he's never going to accomplish anything. Mr. @The_Cowcel, you need to realize you can have fun with women without any sexual component to it. That is a necessary realization to you chilling the fuck out. Yes, the sexual component is real and necessary, but at this point, it is not necessary for you, it is awkshully counterproductive. You need to learn how to interact positively with women without sex running wild through your mind, until you build yourself up mentally and emotionally to where you can start trying to handle that component as well. Because right now, and your entire life since sex started meaning something to you, it has been too big for you. It's overwhelming to you. Set it aside for a while and try to simply make frens, both male and female. All the parts of being someone's fren also apply to being in a romantic relationship with someone. Learn how to make and keep frens first. Remove the pressure (that you put on yourself) of never doing what you say everyone else does effortlessly, the pressure that trips you up. Remove it from the equation for now. And this is why you need professional medical treatment too, it can help you with all of these things way more than anyone here lecturing you through a screen can

 

[Hotmilk]

Something very frustrating here is how cyclical and stagnant the incel mind is.

Very few things changed in his mind between the first and last page.