Debate user The_Cowcel about incels.

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And here's a meet cute with the same song, dorky or self-contained-seeming guy finds a cute but seemingly awkward girl. (No, have never seen the movie so idk)
They break up and he takes it badly. If an incel saw it, they'd blame Summer, even though the point of the film is that the problem is Joe Go's character, which even he has said in interviews.

Anyway, seriously man. It's not hard to talk to women.
 
Última edición:
Then stop being creepy.
Apparently my creepy behavior is a result of me trying to not by creepy by not spilling the spaghetti about how desperate and horny I am so I don't know how to not be creepy, all actions I take to try not to be instead work against me
It's a situation where two characters who will be romantically involved later meet each other in circumstances that are, well, cute.
huh, I always thought a "meet cute" was some sort of organized event I wasn't privy to.
Yes, it's been working wonders for me.
How is knowledge meant to help if I'm just sitting around while time passes? I've never been taught how to interact with women and my usual approach is one of complete passivity.
LMAOOOOO OH MY GOD MY SIDES. "I CAN'T GET LAID LIKE CHRIS CHAN BECAUSE HE WAS A CELEBRITY. HOLY SHIT MOFO. YOU ACTUALLY SAID THAT. WHAT A FUCKING RETARD. HOLY SHIT.....
Am I wrong? He was exposed to millions of girls and there was a fame incentive for having sex with him, I don't have any of that going for me. Pointing to Chrischan's sexual success is like pointing to the sexual success of Danny DeVito
LMAO, neither is any of my other single friends but they do just fine. It's just you nigga.
If they do fine then why are they single? Sounds to me like they aren't doing well at all.
You're just autistic and retarded and boring.
I know, but I don't see any way to be anything else.
We're back to learning to like things for their own sake. It manifests when you take an interest in something. Say you take up tennis. You watch a lot, you get out and learn it and play some. Then you can carry a conversation about tennis bc you know a bit about it. You don't school or lecture people about it - you listen, you comment, they do the same. Voilà, a conversation.

And your second sentence is defeatist and self- fulfilling.
Your scenario doesn't explain how I would get to the point of talking about tennis though. That's a very critical element and it's a step that I don't understand or have any point of reference for. If I got into tennis or any other sport I would at most be discussing it on a discord chat or something, nothing face to face.
You should be seeking to get to know a person and connect with them. If that is not of interest, then yes, you will sound creepy announcing you would like to sex them or have a relationship with avfemale sex unit.
I guess, but I don't really know how to do that, and I don't know how I would attempt to connect with a woman without seeming creepier than if I were to approach with direct sexual intent, there is so much messaging against sexual deception and the like that I'm left baffled on what I am even meant to do to get sexually close to a woman.
I am really sorry about this and really do feel bad for you - this is a very isolating situation to inhabit. So I understand why you've spun up theories about women if you've been drinking deep from the online spring of dysfunctional analyses by people in a similar situation. But I don't think absorbing those people's theories are doing you any favors.
IRL observation doesn't do anything to make me feel less hopeless, It's a struggle to even find female peers and I'm mortified of taking my chances with a girl anywhere that doesn't do ID verification for fear that she may be underage.
Anyway, seriously man. It's not hard to talk to women.
How is it not? It's a struggle to even find them and every interaction feels like it could send me to prison.
 
How is it not? It's a struggle to even find them and every interaction feels like it could send me to prison.
You know what- all you do is complain and you do nothing to fix it. All of this is your fault. If you actually took all the advice instead of whining like a fag on the internet, maybe you'd accomplish something.

Because doing nothing sure has worked for you so far. You're making excuses and doing nothing to fix it.

Apparently my creepy behavior is a result of me trying to not by creepy by not spilling the spaghetti about how desperate and horny I am so I don't know how to not be creepy, all actions I take to try not to be instead work against me

....You're weird.
 
Apparently my creepy behavior is a result of me trying to not by creepy by not spilling the spaghetti about how desperate and horny I am so I don't know how to not be creepy, all actions I take to try not to be instead work against me
Don't pursue women for lust? Don't write these pitiful dissertations on how your life sucks? Maybe take a shower and find meaningful shit to do for yourself to start.
 
Don't pursue women for lust? Don't write these pitiful dissertations on how your life sucks? Maybe take a shower and find meaningful shit to do for yourself to start.
If I'm not pursuing women for lust then why would I even go out? Most of my actions and interactions with the outside world are motivated by the lustful desire to get a woman.
You know what- all you do is complain and you do nothing to fix it. All of this is your fault. If you actually took all the advice instead of whining like a fag on the internet, maybe you'd accomplish something.

Because doing nothing sure has worked for you so far. You're making excuses and doing nothing to fix it.
I am constantly working to improve my situation, things take time though and much of the advice I'm receiving is contradictory and lacking in nuance and specificity.
Seriously man. Why does this site attract so many of these rejects?
Because it's one of the only places we can laugh at those more pathetic than ourselves.
 
"Don't worry about having relationship right now", LOL. LMAO, when has that ever helped anybody? The guys who are obsessed with relationships will never listen to this advice because they already develop a fixation and complex with it. This will never help them. If anything, advice like this makes everything WORSE and, in my experience, does drive men to violent and psychosis behavior when they constantly hear this advice over and over. It's probably the worst you could ever give someone like this. Yeah, tell the guy who's life revolves X that X is bad for him. I'm sure he'll listen to you and anything you have to say afterwards. Fucking classic. :story:
Don't tell alcoholics that they should go to rehab and get sober, they've already invested too much of their life into alcohol and telling them to stop drinking just makes them violent

Being exceptionally bad at every game I play regardless of time invested, That alone is easily a half dozen examples if divided by genre. In terms of real life hobbies there's not much that I've put serious time into because everything is just so expensive, I can't trace to save my life. These aren't hobbies but I have never been able to keep up with the pace of note taking at school and whenever I've tried I always just end up with a third to half of the notes being complete, many of them being wrong and because I was so focused on writing notes I could never pay attention to the lecture so trying to take notes always left me behind in school, also I don't think I've driven more than a total of 20,000 miles but I've already hit four cars in that brief period of time. I'm just bad at everything so I hate trying.
Man I'm starting to think a group home with a structured daily schedule of activities and limited internet access would suit you best
 
By the way. No, the advice isn't bad. The advice is good, if OP bothered to actually take it and do it.

The guy should be lucky that anyone even gave advice considering he's still done nothing but complain.

Man I'm starting to think a group home with a structured daily schedule of activities and limited internet access would suit you best
Too autistic to live. That's why I keep saying that. These fuckers are too autistic to talk to people let alone figure out that their behavior is weird.
 
Don't tell alcoholics that they should go to rehab and get sober, they've already invested too much of their life into alcohol and telling them to stop drinking just makes them violent
Alcoholics are at least able to get what they want, I've never had even a small taste of what I've been striving for.
Man I'm starting to think a group home with a structured daily schedule of activities and limited internet access would suit you best
That sounds like hell. I think getting a woman would suit me best.
By the way. No, the advice isn't bad. The advice is good, if OP bothered to actually take it and do it.

The guy should be lucky that anyone even gave advice considering he's still done nothing but complain.
I am taking the advice to the best of my ability but it's such a struggle even getting to the point where any of it is actionable. I struggle to even find women to approach and even when I do I'm paralyzed by fear of the consequences for expressing my sexual intent.
Too autistic to live. That's why I keep saying that. These fuckers are too autistic to talk to people let alone figure out that their behavior is weird.
What behavior? I have almost no interactions with women.
 
also I don't think I've driven more than a total of 20,000 miles but I've already hit four cars in that brief period of time. I'm just bad at everything so I hate trying.
Are you fucking trolling us
Has this been an elaborate ruse cruise this whole time

And aw on the driving. Were the scenarios similar each time?
I'm hoping he answers because I need to know.

Man I'm starting to think a group home with a structured daily schedule of activities and limited internet access would suit you best
That sounds like hell. I think getting a woman would suit me best.
You could find a woman in a group home. Or if you can't find a woman because women all said no, you can find fun in a group home.
 
Are you fucking trolling us
Has this been an elaborate ruse cruise this whole time
TBF, one was while I was fucking with my phone trying to reject a call, I hit two at once when I was parking in an overcrowded small parking lot, and hit the fourth because I was told to try going to a local bar that had a shitty parking lot as well so it was only three accidents and most of them would have been avoided if not for me taking the advice of people telling me to go out and do things. I'm fucking awful at parking at least in the truck that I drive, I almost never park between the lines and when I do it's usually because I got out and saw how bad of a job I did parking and decided to readjust.

All of the cars I hit while parking were stationary.
Can you take an IQ test and post the results?
Took one in school for some sort of retard benefits or whatever. I scored low 130s IIRC.
 
That sounds like hell. I think getting a woman would suit me best.
What behavior? I have almost no interactions with women.
>has no interactions with women
>100% certain that "getting a woman" will fix him

????
Are you fucking trolling us
Has this been an elaborate ruse cruise this whole time
In fairness to Cowcel, that's pretty common for autistics. I think he's Level 2 autistic in terms of functioning. He's not a shrieking tard but he isn't one of the spergs who just comes across as a quirky nerd either. It sucks for people like him because they fall into a no-man's land where people expect him to be normal because he can talk and hold down a job (I think he's in trade school?) and don't give him the grace they would for somebody who was more obviously challenged.
You could find a woman in a group home. Or if you can't find a woman because women all said no, you can find fun in a group home.
Group homes are sex segregated for obvious reasons. But the people in them typically participate in day programs where they interact with other disabled individuals of the opposite sex. People with intellectual/developmental disabilities have lower inhibitions and are just as horny as normies, so this would unironically be his best chance to get some pussy. I don't think he's disabled enough to qualify though.
 
TBF, one was while I was fucking with my phone trying to reject a call, I hit two at once when I was parking in an overcrowded small parking lot, and hit the fourth because I was told to try going to a local bar that had a shitty parking lot as well so it was only three accidents and most of them would have been avoided if not for me taking the advice of people telling me to go out and do things. I'm fucking awful at parking at least in the truck that I drive, I almost never park between the lines and when I do it's usually because I got out and saw how bad of a job I did parking and decided to readjust.

All of the cars I hit while parking were stationary.

Took one in school for some sort of retard benefits or whatever. I scored low 130s IIRC.

So it's advice/ advice-givers/ making an effort that are effectively at fault, not that you drive a thing bigger than you know how to park and repeatedly refuse to learn to do better.

This is absurd, and it encapsulates your world-view and approach. And it is a critical reason you will never succeed in your Love Lust Quest unless and until you do a 180. You think backward, and though you (claim to) blame yourself as a hopeless mess, you really blame the world for things within your control.

Stop being so limp. (This is not a sexual joke.) "I've never been taught." "I just stay at home.""Even if I did something I'd just talk to Discorders about it, nothing face-to-face." Get up, get out, and do something, independently. Own it. You put more energy into dismissing good ideas (and step-by-step instructions) and concocting reasons to flip back and forth between "I'm a doomed loser" and "everyone and everything has forsaken me" (anything to claim abject and intractable misery) than taking action on anything.

A couple of other notes:
  • Being cold-approached for sex is exceptionally off-putting.
  • Also, your paranoia about being arrested for underage girls or false rape is very stupid and indicates a severe lack of conception of proportion or reality vs internet exaggeration. .
  • Less importantly, "millions" of women were never aware of Chris Chan, and the most notable woman he "got" was his mother - and even then only after she had lost half her marbles, which is exploitation not achievement*. The lesson of Chris and women, aside from that horrific scenario, is that he was a weird and stubborn person who ran into all kinds of trouble due to his stubbornly creepy approaches to finding a boyfriend-free girl.
*Meanwhile he couldn't be bothered with Fiona. She dodged a bullet there.​

The following excerpts - lightly edited in the excerpts provided*, and emphasis only lightly added bc the whole book is chock-full of the same languidity yet high, self-absorbed melodrama articulated itt and countless times on the site- are relevant. And I know ain't no one reading alla that, but I found it amusing to put together, particularly how perfectly Werther's thinking echoes and plays out here.

* yes, I did just re-read the whole thing, nice way to spend an hour, tbh, both for itself and for the mini-project of this comment. @The_Cowcel, you could spend three hours of time reading the whole book and do better for your brain than games and discord and wringing your hands or ignoring advice for 30. But to be clear, the lesson is Don't Be a Young Werther.

[Setting: Goethe is a young man who falls for Charlotte, who is engaged and then married to Albert. Werther also has a job/role adjacent to minor nobility, being a young man of some social stature himself. The novel is primarily his set of letters to his friend, Wilhelm, wherein he describes his increasing distraction and obsession, which grows to the point of causing him social injury, in addition to constant and accelerating hysteria and wild melancholy. The letters extend over two calendar years, and I've kept the excerpted ones in order - so starting with the September ones, we're in a different calendar year than the first two excepted letters.]

August 3O.​

Unhappy being that I am! Why do I thus deceive myself? What is to come of all this wild, aimless, endless passion? I cannot pray except to her. My imagination sees nothing but her: all surrounding objects are of no account, except as they relate to her. In this dreamy state I enjoy many happy hours, till at length I feel compelled to tear myself away from her. Ah, Wilhelm, to what does not my heart often compel me! When I have spent several hours in her company, till I feel completely absorbed by her figure, her grace, the divine expression of her thoughts, my mind becomes gradually excited to the highest excess, my sight grows dim, my hearing confused, my breathing oppressed as if by the hand of a murderer, and my beating heart seeks to obtain relief for my aching senses. I am sometimes unconscious whether I really exist. If in such moments I find no sympathy, and Charlotte does not allow me to enjoy the melancholy consolation of bathing her hand with my tears, I feel compelled to tear myself from her, when I either wander through the country, climb some precipitous cliff, or force a path through the trackless thicket, where I am lacerated and torn by thorns and briers; and thence I find relief. Sometimes I lie stretched on the ground, overcome with fatigue and dying with thirst; sometimes, late in the night, when the moon shines above me, I recline against an aged tree in some sequestered forest, to rest my weary limbs, when, exhausted and worn, I sleep till break of day. O Wilhelm! the hermit’s cell, his sackcloth, and girdle of thorns would be luxury and indulgence compared with what I suffer. Adieu! I see no end to this wretchedness except the grave.

December 24.​

As I anticipated, the ambassador occasions me infinite annoyance. He is the most punctilious blockhead under heaven. He does everything step by step, with the trifling minuteness of an old woman; and he is a man whom it is impossible to please, [...] he cannot comprehend our meaning. It is deplorable to be connected with such a fellow.

[...]

And you are to blame for all this, you who persuaded me to bend my neck to this yoke by preaching a life of activity to me. If the man who plants vegetables, and carries his corn to town on market-days, is not more usefully employed than I am, then let me work ten years longer at the galleys to which I am now chained.

Oh, the brilliant wretchedness, the weariness, that one is doomed to witness among the silly people whom we meet in society here! The ambition of rank! How they watch, how they toil, to gain precedence! What poor and contemptible passions are displayed in their utter nakedness! [...]I cannot understand how human beings can so debase themselves.

Every day I observe more and more the folly of judging of others by ourselves; and I have so much trouble with myseif, and my own heart is in such constant agitation, that I am well content to let others pursue their own course, if they only allow me the same privilege.

What provokes me most is the unhappy extent to which distinctions of rank are carried. I know perfectly well how necessary are inequalities of condition, and I am sensible of the advantages I myself derive therefrom; but I would not have these institutions prove a barrier to the small chance of happiness which I may enjoy on this earth.

[...]

September 3.​

I sometimes cannot understand how she can love another, how she dares love another, when I love nothing in this world so completely, so devotedly, as I love her, when I know only her, and have no other possession.

September 5.​

Charlotte had written a letter to her husband in the country, where he was detained by business. It commenced, “My dearest love, return as soon as possible: I await you with a thousand raptures." A friend who arrived, brought word, that, for certain reasons, he could not return immediately. Charlotte’s letter was not forwarded, and the same evening it fell into my hands. I read it, and smiled. She asked the reason. “What a heavenly treasure is imagination:" I exclaimed; “I fancied for a moment that this was written to me." She paused, and seemed displeased. I was silent.

September 12.​

[...]
I turned my face away. She should not act thus. She ought not to excite my imagination with such displays of heavenly innocence and happiness, nor awaken my heart from its slumbers, in which it dreams of the worthlessness of life! And why not? Because she knows how much I love her.

October 19.​

Alas! the void the fearful void, which I feel in my bosom! Sometimes I think, if I could only once but once, press her to my heart, this dreadful void would be filled.

October 27.​

I could tear open my bosom with vexation to think how little we are capable of influencing the feelings of each other. No one can communicate to me those sensations of love, joy, rapture, and delight which I do not naturally possess; and, though my heart may glow with the most lively affection, I cannot make the happiness of one in whom the same warmth is not inherent.

November 3.​

Witness, Heaven, how often I lie down in my bed with a wish, and even a hope, that I may never awaken again. And in the morning, when I open my eyes, I behold the sun once more, and am wretched. If I were whimsical, I might blame the weather, or an acquaintance, or some personal disappointment, for my discontented mind; and then this insupportable load of trouble would not rest entirely upon myself. But, alas! I feel it too sadly. I am alone the cause of my own woe, am I not? Truly, my own bosom contains the source of all my sorrow, as it previously contained the source of all my pleasure. Am I not the same being who once enjoyed an excess of happiness, who, at every step, saw paradise open before him, and whose heart was ever expanded toward the whole world? And this heart is now dead, no sentiment can revive it; my eyes are dry; and my senses, no more refreshed by the influence of soft tears, wither and consume my brain. I suffer much, for I have lost the only charm of life: that active, sacred power which created worlds around me, — it is no more. When I look from my window at the distant hills, and behold the morning sun breaking through the mists, and illuminating the country around, which is still wrapped in silence, whilst the soft stream winds gently through the willows, which have shed their leaves; when glorious nature displays all her beauties before me, and her wondrous prospects are ineffectual to extract one tear of joy from my withered heart, I feel that in such a moment I stand like a reprobate before heaven, hardened, insensible, and unmoved. Oftentimes do I then bend my knee to the earth, and implore God for the blessing of tears, as the desponding labourer in some scorching climate prays for the dews of heaven to moisten his parched corn.

But I feel that God does not grant sunshine or rain to our importunate entreaties. [...]

November 15.​

I thank you, Wilhelm, for your cordial sympathy, for your excellent advice; and I implore you to be quiet. Leave me to my sufferings. In spite of my wretchedness, I have still strength enough for endurance. [...]What is the destiny of man, but to fill up the measure of his sufferings, and to drink his allotted cup of bitterness? And if that same cup proved bitter to the God of heaven, under a human form, why should I affect a foolish pride, and call it sweet? Why should I be ashamed of shrinking at that fearful moment, when my whole being will tremble between existence and annihilation, when a remembrance of the past, like a flash of lightning, will illuminate the dark gulf of futurity, when everything shall dissolve around me, and the whole world vanish away? Is not this the voice of a creature oppressed beyond all resource, self-deficient, about to plunge into inevitable destruction, and groaning deeply at its inadequate strength, “My God! my God! why hast thou forsaken me?” And should I feel ashamed to utter the same expression? Should I not shudder at a prospect which had its fears, even for him who folds up the heavens like a garment?

November 21.​

She does not feel, she does not know, that she is preparing a poison which will destroy us both; and I drink deeply of the draught which is to prove my destruction. What mean those looks of kindness with which she often — often? no, not often, but sometimes, regards me, that complacency with which she hears the involuntary sentiments which frequently escape me, and the tender pity for my sufferings which appears in her countenance?

[...]

December 2O.​

I am grateful to your love, Wilhelm, for having repeated your advice so seasonably. Yes, you are right: it is undoubtedly better that I should depart. But I do not entirely approve your scheme of returning at once to your neighbourhood; at least, I should Iike to make a little excursion on the way, particularly as we may now expect a continued frost, and consequently good roads. I am much pleased with your intention of coming to fetch me; only delay your journey for a fortnight, and wait for another letter from me. One should gather nothing before it is ripe, and a fortnight sooner or later makes a great difference. Entreat my mother to pray for her son, and tell her I beg her pardon for all the unhappiness I have occasioned her. It has ever been my fate to give pain to those whose happiness I should have promoted. Adieu, my dearest friend. May every blessing of Heaven attend you! Farewell.

We find it difficult to express the emotions with which Charlotte’s soul was agitated during the whole of this time, whether in relation to her husband or to her unfortunate friend; although we are enabled, by our knowledge of her character, to understand their nature.

It is certain that she had formed a determination, by every means in her power to keep Werther at a distance; and, if she hesitated in her decision, it was from a sincere feeling of friendly pity, knowing how much it would cost him, indeed, that he would find it almost impossible to comply with her wishes. But various causes now urged her to be firm. Her hushand preserved a strict silence about the whole matter; and she never made it a subject of conversation, feeling bound to prove to him by her conduct that her sentiments agreed with his.

The same day, which was the Sunday before Christmas, after Werther had written the last-mentioned letter to his friend, he came in the evening to Charlotte’s house, and found her alone. [...] “You shall have a gift too, if you behave well,” said Charlotte, hiding her embarrassment under sweet smile. “And what do you call behaving well? What should I do, what can I do, my dear Charlotte?” said he. “Thursday night,” she answered, “is Christmas Eve. The children are all to be here, and my father too: there is a present for each; do you come likewise, but do not come before that time.” Werther started. “I desire you will not: it must be so,” she continued. “I ask it of you as a favour, for my own peace and tranquillity. We cannot go on in this manner any longer." He turned away his face walked hastily up and down the room, muttering indistinctly, “We cannot go on in this manner any longer!” Charlotte, seeing the violent agitation into which these words had thrown him, endeavoured to divert his thoughts by different questions, but in vain. “No, Charlotte!” he exclaimed; “I will never see you any more!" “And why so?” she answered. “We may — we must see each other again; only let it be with more discretion. Oh! why were you born with that excessive, that ungovernable passion for everything that is dear to you?” Then, taking his hand, she said, “I entreat of you to be more calm: your talents, your understanding, your genius, will furnish you with a thousand resources. Be a man, and conquer an unhappy attachment toward a creature who can do nothing but pity you.” He bit his lips, and looked at her with a gloomy countenance. She continued to hold his hand. “Grant me but a moment’s patience, Werther,” she said. “Do you not see that you are deceiving yourself, that you are seeking your own destruction? Why must you love me, me only, who belong to another? I fear, I much fear, that it is only the impossibility of possessing me which makes your desire for me so strong.” He drew back his hand, whilst he surveyed her with a wild and angry look. “’Tis well!” he exclaimed, “’tis very well! Did not Albert furnish you with this reflection? It is profound, a very profound remark.” “A reflection that any one might easily make,” she answered; “and is there not a woman in the whole world who is at liberty, and has the power to make you happy? Conquer yourself: look for such a being, and believe me when I say that you will certainly find her. I have long felt for you, and for us all: you have confined yourself too long within the limits of too narrow a circle. Conquer yourself; make an effort: a short journey will be of service to you. Seek and find an object worthy of your love; then return hither, and let us enjoy together all the happiness of the most perfect friendship.”

“This speech,” replied Werther with a cold smile, “this speech should be printed, for the benefit of all teachers. My dear Charlotte, allow me but a short time longer, and all will be well." “But however, Werther,” she added, “do not come again before Christmas.” He was about to make some answer, when Albert came in. They saluted each other coldly, and with mutual embarrassment paced up and down the room. Werther made some common remarks; Albert did the same, and their conversation soon dropped. Albert asked his wife about some household matters; and, finding that his commissions were not executed, he used some expressions which, to Werther’s ear, savoured of extreme harshness. He wished to go, but had not power to move; and in this situation he remained till eight o’clock, his uneasiness and discontent continually increasing. At length the cloth was laid for supper, and he took up his hat and stick. Albert invited him to remain; but Werther, fancying that he was merely paying a formal compliment, thanked him coldly, amd left the house.

[...]

On Monday morning, the 21st of December, he wrote to Charlotte the following letter, which was found, sealed, on his bureau after his death, and was given to her. I shall insert it in fragments; as it appears, from several circumstances, to have been written in that manner.

“It is all over, Charlotte: I am resolved to die! I make this declaration deliberately and coolly, without any romantic passion, on this morning of the day when I am to see you for the last time. At the moment you read these lines, O best of women, the cold grave will hold the inanimate remains of that restless and unhappy being who, in the last moments of his existence, knew no pleasure so great as that of conversing with you! I have passed a dreadful night or rather, let me say, a propitious one; for it has given me resolution, it has fixed my purpose. I am resolved to die. When I tore myself from you yesterday, my senses were in tumult and disorder; my heart was oppressed, hope and pleasure had fled from me for ever, and a petrifying cold had seized my wretched being. I could scarcely reach my room. I threw myself on my knees; and Heaven, for the last time, granted me the consolation of shedding tears. A thousand ideas, a thousand schemes, arose within my soul; till at length one last, fixed, final thought took possession of my heart. It was to die. I lay down to rest; and in the morning, in the quiet hour of awakening, the same determination was upon me. To die! It is not despair: it is conviction that I have filled up the measure of my sufferings, that I have reached my appointed term, and must sacrifice myself for thee. Yes, Charlotte, why should I not avow it? One of us three must die: it shall be Werther. O beloved Charlotte! this heart, excited by rage and fury, has often conceived the horrid idea of murdering your husband — you — myself! The lot is cast at length. And in the bright, quiet evenings of summer, when you sometimes wander toward the mountains, let your thoughts then turn to me: recollect how often you have watched me coming to meet you from the valley; then bend your eyes upon the churchyard which contains my grave, and, by the light of the setting sun, mark how the evening breeze waves the tall grass which grows above my tomb. I was calm when I began this letter, but the recollection of these scenes makes me weep like a child.”

[...]He walked pensively in the garden, and seemed anxious to renew all the ideas that were most painful to him.

[...]

He returned home about five o’clock, ordered his servant to keep up his fire, desired him to pack his books and linen at the bottom of the trunk, and to place his coats at the top. He then appears to have made the following addition to the letter addressed to Charlotte:

“You do not expect me. You think I will obey you, and not visit you again till Christmas Eve. O Charlotte, today or never! On Christmas Eve you will hold this paper in your hand; you will tremble, and moisten it with your tears. I will — I must! Oh, how happy I feel to be determined!”

In the meantime, Charlotte was in a pitiable state of mind. After her last conversation with Werther, she found how painful to herself it would be to decline his visits, and knew how severely he would suffer from their separation.

[...]
[he visits, despite being told not to visit until Christmas Eve with everyone else; he reads some translated poetry while in tears, kisses her; they're both in a whirl or emotion; she says never do that again ; he leaves]

He retired to bed, and slept to a late hour. The next morning his servant, upon being called to bring his coffee, found him writing. He was adding, to Charlotte, what we here annex.

“For the last, last time I open these eyes. Alas! they will behold the sun no more. It is covered by a thick, impenetrable cloud. Yes, Nature! put on mourning: your child, your friend, your lover, draws near his end! This thought, Charlotte, is without parallel; and yet it seems like a mysterious dream when I repeat — this is my last day! The last! Charlotte, no word can adequately express this thought. The last! To-day I stand erect in all my strength to-morrow, cold and stark, I shall lie extended upon the ground. To die! what is death? We do but dream in our discourse upon it. I have seen many human beings die; but, so straitened is our feeble nature, we have no clear conception of the beginning or the end of our existence. At this moment I am my own — or rather I am thine, thine, my adored! and the next we are parted, severed — perhaps for ever! No, Charlotte, no! How can I, how can you, be annihilated? We exist. What is annihilation? A mere word, an unmeaning sound that fixes no impression on the mind. Dead, Charlotte! laid in the cold earth, in the dark and narrow grave! I had a friend once who was everything to me in early youth. She died. I followed her hearse; I stood by her grave when the coffin was lowered; and when I heard the creaking of the cords as they were loosened and drawn up, when the first shovelful of earth was thrown in, and the coffin returned a hollow sound, which grew fainter and fainter till all was completely covered over, I threw myself on the ground; my heart was smitten, grieved, shattered, rent — but I neither knew what had happened, nor what was to happen to me. Death! the grave! I understand not the words. — Forgive, oh, forgive me! Yesterday — ah, that day should have been the last of my life! Thou angel! for the first time in my existence, I felt rapture glow within my inmost soul. She loves, she loves me! Still burns upon my lips the sacred fire they received from thine. New torrents of delight overwhelm my soul. Forgive me, oh, forgive!

“I knew that I was dear to you; I saw it in your first entrancing look, knew it by the first pressure of your hand; but when I was absent from you, when I saw Albert at your side, my doubts and fears returned.

“Do you remember the flowers you sent me, when, at that crowded assembly, you could neither speak nor extend your hand to me? Half the night I was on my knees before those flowers, and I regarded them as the pledges of your love; but those impressions grew fainter, and were at length effaced.

“Everything passes away; but a whole eternity could not extinguish the living flame which was yesterday kindled by your lips, and which now burns within me. She loves me! These arms have encircled her waist, these lips have trembled upon hers. She is mine! Yes, Charlotte, you are mine for ever!

“And what do they mean by saying Albert is your husband? He may be so for this world; and in this world it is a sin to love you, to wish to tear you from his embrace. Yes, it is a crime; and I suffer the punishment, but I have enjoyed the full delight of my sin. I have inhaled a balm that has revived my soul. From this hour you are mine; yes, Charlotte, you are mine!
I go before you. I go to my Father and to your Father. I will pour out my sorrows before him, and he will give me comfort till you arrive. Then will I fly to meet you. I will claim you, and remain your eternal embrace, in the presence of the Almighty.

“I do not dream, I do not rave. Drawing nearer to the grave my perceptions become clearer. We shall exist; we shall see each other again; we shall behold your mother; I shall behold her, and expose to her my inmost heart. Your mother — your image!”

About eleven o’clock Werther asked his servant if Albert had returned. He answered, “Yes;” for he had seen him pass on horseback: upon which Werther sent him the following note, unsealed:

“Be so good as to lend me your pistols for a journey. Adieu.”

Charlotte had slept little during the past night. All her apprehensions were realised in a way that she could neither foresee nor avoid. Her blood was boiling in her veins, and a thousand painful sensations rent her pure heart. Was it the ardour of Werther’s passionate embraces that she felt within her bosom? Was it anger at his daring? Was it the sad comparison of her present condition with former days of innocence, tranquillity, and self-confidence? [...]

But we must not forget one remarkable circumstance. We may observe from the character of Werther’s correspondence, that he had never affected to conceal his anxious desire to quit this world. He had often discussed the subject with Albert; and, between the latter and Charlotte, it had not unfrequently formed a topic of conversation. Albert was so opposed to the very idea of such an action, that, with a degree of irritation unusual in him, he had more than once given Werther to understand that he doubted the seriousness of his threats, and not only turned them into ridicule, but caused Charlotte to share his feelings of incredulity. Her heart was thus tranquillised when she felt disposed to view the melancholy subject in a serious point of view, though she never communicated to her husband the apprehensions she sometimes experienced.

[...]

The arrival of Werther’s servant occasioned her the greatest embarrassment. He gave Albert a note, which the latter coldly handed to his wife, saying, at the same time, “Give him the pistols. I wish him a pleasant journey,” he added, turning to the servant. These words fell upon Charlotte like a thunderstroke: she rose from her seat half-fainting, and unconscious of what she did. She walked mechanically toward the wall, took down the pistols with a trembling hand, slowly wiped the dust from them, and would have delayed longer, had not Albert hastened her movements by an impatient look. She then delivered the fatal weapons to the servant, without being able to utter a word. [...]

When the servant brought the pistols to Werther, the latter received them with transports of delight upon hearing that Charlotte had given them to him with her own hand. He ate some bread, drank some wine, sent his servant to dinner, and then sat down to write as follows:

They have been in your hands you wiped the dust from them. I kiss them a thousand times — you have touched them. Yes, Heaven favours my design, and you, Charlotte, provide me with the fatal instruments. It was my desire to receive my death from your hands, and my wish is gratified. I have made inquiries of my servant. You trembled when you gave him the pistols, but you bade me no adieu. Wretched, wretched that I am — not one farewell! How could you shut your heart against me in that hour which makes you mine for ever? Charlotte, ages cannot efface the impression — I feel you cannot hate the man who so passionately loves you!”

After dinner he called his servant, desired him to finish the packing up, destroyed many papers, and then went out to pay some trifling debts. He soon returned home, then went out again, notwithstanding the rain, walked for some time in the count’s garden, and afterward proceeded farther into the country. Toward evening he came back once more, and resumed his writing.

[...]

“Past eleven o’clock! [...]But what object is there, Charlotte, which fails to summon up your image before me? Do you not surround me on all sides? and have I not, like a child, treasured up every trifle which you have consecrated by your touch?

“Your profile, which was so dear to me, I return to you; and I pray you to preserve it. Thousands of kisses have I imprinted upon it, and a thousand times has it gladdened my heart on departing from and returning to my home.

“I have implored your father to protect my remains. At the corner of the churchyard, looking toward the fields, there are two lime-trees — there I wish to lie. Your father can, and doubtless will, do this much for his friend. Implore it of him. But perhaps pious Christians will not choose that their bodies chould be buried near the corpse of a poor, unhappy wretch like me. Then let me be laid in some remote valley, or near the highway, where the priest and Levite may bless themselves as they pass by my tomb, whilst the Samaritan will shed a tear for my fate.

“See, Charlotte, I do not shudder to take the cold and fatal cup, from which I shall drink the draught of death. Your hand presents it to me, and I do not tremble. All, all is now concluded: the wishes and the hopes of my existence are fulfilled. With cold, unflinching hand I knock at the brazen portals of Death. Oh, that I had enjoyed the bliss of dying for you! how gladly would I have sacrificed myself for you; Charlotte! And could I but restore peace and joy to your bosom, with what resolution, with what joy, would I not meet my fate! But it is the lot of only a chosen few to shed their blood for their friends, and by their death to augment, a thousand times, the happiness of those by whom they are beloved.

I wish, Charlotte, to be buried in the dress I wear at present: it has been rendered sacred by your touch. I have begged this favour of your father. My spirit soars above my sepulchre. I do not wish my pockets to be searched. The knot of pink ribbon which you wore on your bosom the first time I saw you, [...]How warmly have I been attached to you, Charlotte! Since the first hour I saw you, how impossible have I found it to leave you. This ribbon must be buried with me: it was a present from you on my birthday. How confused it all appears! Little did I then think that I should journey this road. But peace! I pray you, peace!

“They are loaded — the clock strikes twelve. I say amen. Charlotte, Charlotte! farewell, farewell!”

A neighbour saw the flash, and heard the report of the pistol; but, as everything remained quiet, he thought no more of it.

In the morning, at six o’clock, the servant went into Werther’s room with a candle. He found his master stretched upon the floor, weltering in his blood, and the pistols at his side. He called, he took him in his arms, but received no answer. Life was not yet quite extinct. The servant ran for a surgeon, and then went to fetch Albert. Charlotte heard the ringing of the bell: a cold shudder seized her. She wakened her husband, and they both rose. The servant, bathed in tears faltered forth the dreadful news. Charlotte fell senseless at Albert’s feet.

When the surgeon came to the unfortunate Werther, he was still lying on the floor; and his pulse beat, but his limbs were cold. The bullet, entering the forehead, over the right eye, had penetrated the skull. A vein was opened in his right arm: the blood came, and he still continued to breathe.

>From the blood which flowed from the chair, it could be inferred that he had committed the rash act sitting at his bureau, and that he afterward fell upon the floor. He was found lying on his back near the window. He was in full-dress costume.

The house, the neighbourhood, and the whole town were immediately in commotion. Albert arrived. They had laid Werther on the bed: his head was bound up, and the paleness of death was upon his face. His limbs were motionless; but he still breathed, at one time strongly, then weaker — his death was momently expected.

He had drunk only one glass of the wine. “Emilia Galotti” lay open upon his bureau.

I shall say nothing of Albert’s distress, or of Charlotte’s grief.

The old steward hastened to the house immediately upon hearing the news: he embraced his dying friend amid a flood of tears. His eldest boys soon followed him on foot. In speechless sorrow they threw themselves on their knees by the bedside, and kissed his hands and face. The eldest, who was his favourite, hung over him till he expired; and even then he was removed by force. At twelve o’clock Werther breathed his last. The presence of the steward, and the precautions he had adopted, prevented a disturbance; and that night, at the hour of eleven, he caused the body to be interred in the place which Werther had selected for himself.

The steward and his sons followed the corpse to the grave. Albert was unable to accompany them. Charlotte’s life was despaired of. The body was carried by labourers. No priest attended.


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So it's advice/ advice-givers/ making an effort that are effectively at fault, not that you drive a thing bigger than you know how to park and repeatedly refuse to learn to do better.
What is there for me to learn? I know how to drive, I'm just bad at it, besides that I had no choice in the vehicle I drive. I'm not hampered by a lack of knowledge, but a lack of ability.

This is absurd, and it encapsulates your world-view and approach. And it is a critical reason you will never succeed in your Love Lust Quest unless and until you do a 180. You think backward, and though you (claim to) blame yourself as a hopeless mess, you really blame the world for things within your control.
I don't see much of anything as being within my control, I can do things technically but nothing I do ever seems to result in a meaningful change to my life, all of the most impactful things that happen to me happen for reasons that have nothing to do with me. I don't feel like I'm an agent in my own life.
Stop being so limp. (This is not a sexual joke.) "I've never been taught." "I just stay at home.""Even if I did something I'd just talk to Discorders about it, nothing face-to-face." Get up, get out, and do something, independently. Own it. You put more energy into dismissing good ideas (and step-by-step instructions) and concocting reasons to flip back and forth between "I'm a doomed loser" and "everyone has forsaken me" (anything to claim abject and interact able misery) than taking action on anything.
There isn't anything I actually want to do though nor is there anything I can do that I believe would bring me closer to my goals, I'm directionless and any attempts at independence have only had negative results for me so I don't want to try when I don't see any good coming of it. I don't see myself as having any action I could take that would meaningfully improve my situation, everything I've tried has been pointless at best or actively detrimental at worst. Every outing is another chance for an accident which would fuck up my insurance rates if it got reported.
Being cold-approached for sex is exceptionally off-putting.
Well yeah, I assumed as much, which is part of the reason I haven't actually tried it yet, but I figure the topic would need to come up at some point and I have no idea how or when to bring it up, especially given that I'm not having extended conversations with anyone.
Also, your paranoia about being arrested for underage girls or false rape is very stupid and indicates a severe lack of conception of proportion or reality vs internet exaggeration.
I know, but I'm extremely risk averse and always prepare for the worst especially with regards to human interaction.
  • Less importantly, "millions" of women were never aware of Chris Chan, and the most notable woman he "got" was his mother - and even then only after she had lost half her marbles, which is exploitation not achievement*. The lesson of Chris and women, aside from that horrific scenario, is that he was a weird and stubborn person who ran into all kinds of trouble due to his stubbornly creepy approaches to finding a boyfriend-free girl.
*Meanwhile he couldn't be bothered with Fiona. She dodged a bullet there.
I doubt your claim of Chris not being known of by millions of women, but putting aside the specifics of the numbers it's undeniable he had far more women knowing of his existence than I ever will and without that he never would have found a girl crazy enough to be into him nor would there be any fame to try to leech off of him.
 
What is there for me to learn? I know how to drive, I'm just bad at it, besides that I had no choice in the vehicle I drive. I'm not hampered by a lack of knowledge, but a lack of ability.
How not to hit fucking stationary cars, obviously. For example, stay off your damn phone; learn to judge the size of a parking spot; park where there is plenty of room. Just little things like that. Ffs.

I don't see much of anything as being within my control, I can do things technically but nothing I do ever seems to result in a meaningful change to my life, all of the most impactful things that happen to me happen for reasons that have nothing to do with me. I don't feel like I'm an agent in my own life.
I encourage you to go back through this entire thread and write down (c&p, whatever) every single suggestion you have received to do things wholly within your control. Then see which of them you have actually done, when, and for how long. In detail.

For example, if someone said (they didn't, iirc; this is an example of the exercise) "get jacked to get women," and you respond with"i tried and it didn't work," then you need to detail out (for yourself) each time you "tried" - the year and month each time you started and stopped, what exactly you did to reach the "jacked" status, what activity and how much you did every single day, what resources you used, how often, how long (both daily and the whole arc of the effort).

If your response would more have been "no one made me exercise as a child or taught me how or the value of it," then you need to detail what was missing from your education or training by others that you have instead sought out independently, then what/ where/ when/ how often/ how long you undertook learning and practicing it yourself.

The point of getting real and quantifying what you claim already to have done and failed at doing is that it removes the emotion (hopelessness, other Werther-y despair, etc.) from the equation. Just hard facts. Dealing with actual facts cuts off your easy escape of waving your hand and stating (and maybe even believing) generalities not based in fact or effort. And doing exactly that (no fact-based hand-wavkng) is your twistedly comforting cop-out. If you can't look at the hard truth rather than the assumed truth or stories you tell yourself, then all of your protests are convenient lies, to others and to yourself.

And if your response would have been, "well, even if I could look like Schwarzenegger in his prime, I can't hold a conversation so I'll still be ignored," then you haven't tried. This is catastrophic thinking*. If you insist push-ups and sit-ups require cash you don't possess then you haven't tried. If you insist you actually can never jack up to Schwarzenegger levels, then you're being deliberately literal and obtuse and haven't tried.

*You display a TON of what are known as cognitive distortions, and you should find some resources that help you learn to recognize and address/ remove them. Common cognitive distortions include
  • Black-and-white (or all-or-nothing) thinking: I never have anything interesting to say.
  • Jumping to conclusions (or mind-reading): The doctor is going to tell me I have cancer.
  • Personalization: Our team lost because of me.
  • Should-ing and must-ing (using language that is self-critical that puts a lot of pressure on you): I should be losing weight.
  • Mental filter (focusing on the negative, such as the one aspect of a health change which you didn't do well): I am terrible at getting enough sleep.
  • Overgeneralization: I'll never find a partner.
  • Magnification and minimization (magnifying the negative, minimizing the positive): It was just one healthy meal.
  • Fortune-telling: My cholesterol is going to be sky-high.
  • Comparison (comparing just one part of your performance or situation to another's, which you don't really know, so that it makes you appear in a negative light): All of my coworkers are happier than me.
  • Catastrophizing (combination of fortune-telling and all-or-nothing thinking; blowing things out of proportion): This spot on my skin is probably skin cancer; I'll be dead soon.
  • Labeling: I'm just not a healthy person.
  • Disqualifying the positive: I answered that well, but it was a lucky guess.
You are not unique in having and reflexively employing these distortions. M9st people do, to varying degrees. You, to a very high degree. There are a ton of resources out there to help with this. Best done with a coach or therapist but not necessary at all. You just need to drop your own fixed assumptions and listen.

There isn't anything I actually want to do though nor is there anything I can do that I believe would bring me closer to my goals, I'm directionless
You're directionless because you choose to be - you want one thing to an unhealthy, obsessive degree, which makes you ridiculous (read Werther; the character is ridiculous), have zero reasonable concept on how to get to it or any healthy place, and you don't have good goals.

and any attempts at independence have only had negative results for me so I don't want to try when I don't see any good coming of it.
See above on doing an honest lookback.

And if you reject independence, guess what you will never/ forever be?
I don't see myself as having any action I could take that would meaningfully improve my situation,
So you admit that you refuse advice or step-by-step instruction? Finally.

everything I've tried has been pointless at best or actively detrimental at worst. Every outing is another chance for an accident which would fuck up my insurance rates if it got reported.
Your errors as described were very clear. And based on those choices, it's clear you're not a goid driver. You need to practice more (where you can't hit anyone), and you need to make common-sense decisions like staying off the phone or squeezing into too-small spaces. It wasn't the other cars' or the spaces' fault you tried to jam into something you don't have the skill to do (or that was physically impossible). If you truly cannot tell if a parking space will fit your truck, then either train yourself only to park in huge ones and away from other people, or sure, ride a bike or something. But none of it is a reasonable trigger for "so I can never go anywhere" or "that's what I get for taking advice and going somewhere/ why didn't people understand that that could happen.". You are being ridiculous.

Well yeah, I assumed as much, which is part of the reason I haven't actually tried it yet, but I figure the topic would need to come up at some point and I have no idea how or when to bring it up, especially given that I'm not having extended conversations with anyone.
The time is not ripe for you to be thinking about or formulating theories on these things, then. Again, your mental focus and energy is being placed on the wrong things. Me sitting around worrying about how I'd be having people constantly trying to scam me if they knew I was a billionaire is a waste of energy if either I am not a billionaire or I am but no one knows it. Same goes.


I doubt your claim of Chris not being known of by millions of women, but putting aside the specifics of the numbers it's undeniable he had far more women knowing of his existence than I ever will and without that he never would have found a girl crazy enough to be into him nor would there be any fame to try to leech off of him.
99.999999999999999 (repeating)% of the world has no clue who he is. He is a niche lolcow. The only time that any reasonably sizeable number of people would even have been exposed to his name is when he was arrested for raping his mother, and none of them remembered it the next day or now. And so Fiona (nothing actually happened between them) and I previously left off what's-her-face the Finnish girl, who does seem to be his girlfriend, God help her.

But even if you're right and millions and millions of girls knew of him, he still has successfully attracted 2 girls total. He also spent significant time under government control and lost everything (AND RAPED HIS MOTHER). So I'm not even sure what your point is. ...Yes, yes, 2 > 0, I know, I know. Get better heroes.
 
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