Attack libertarian/anarcho-capitalist philosophy - see if you can do it

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Getting a bit TLDR so dumbrate me if not applicable, but what’s the point?
There is no point or meaning in clarifying overarching reality, only the execution of an act.
If I can perceive that I have an axe, and I perceive that my swing shattered a skull in either a good or a bad way, that is enough.
The only thing that I care to clarify is the value of the act and anything beyond that is further away from the axe and the skull.
The point is the normative justification behind why actions are right or wrong. If you're unclear about that distinction, I'm happy to clarify

Lolberts know their ideology doesn't work in reality, so they have to confine the argument to such an extent that you have to argue against tautologies.
"Please confine your argument to the normative idea of this thread."
Which is "under perfect conditions and looking at it from the most abstract metaphysical point of view, anarcho capitalism is free of contradictions and thus works".
It's like the physics joke where everything works perfectly when it's a sphere in a vacuum.
In reality, it can't work and thinking about how things should be in a perfect world is pointless, but daydreaming and wanking over pretentious ideas is all they have.
The scope of the thread is not idealism, but normative ethics based on real-world principles (volition, property rights, conflict avoidance). The discussion is not about utopian conditions, but about ethically grounded principles and their practical implications. Ethical systems are not about ideal conditions, but about what ought to be in a world where agents have volition and scarcity is real. Don't derail the conversation by misrepresenting the thread's scope
 
normative ethics based on real-world principles (volition, property rights, conflict avoidance).
Did you address the concept of conquest? Say you have a plot of land, but you don’t use it. Somebody annexes that land, in the literal sense of occupying it, say homeless or vagrants, how would normative ethics handle that?

In America, we have “squatter’s rights” where you have to legally evict unwanted guests out of your property if they occupy it. Be it a house, business, even parking lots. I find that bullshit as there’s no recourse for property owners against aggressors that do not have permissions to be in your house.
 
Libertarianism without a strong and moral society will break into utter decadence and degeneracy that allows socialist and fascist actors to gain legitimacy.
 
Did you address the concept of conquest? Say you have a plot of land, but you don’t use it. Somebody annexes that land, in the literal sense of occupying it, say homeless or vagrants, how would normative ethics handle that?

In America, we have “squatter’s rights” where you have to legally evict unwanted guests out of your property if they occupy it. Be it a house, business, even parking lots. I find that bullshit as there’s no recourse for property owners against aggressors that do not have permissions to be in your house.
In normative terms, the distinction that matters is control and intent, not legal bureaucracy. If you are the legitimate owner of a plot of land, any later use of it without your consent is an initiation of a conflict. Mere disuse does not constitute abandonment, however. Abandonment has specific criteria. If the plot of land is truly abandoned, then it can be freely homesteaded by any new actor (trivially, because that doesn't cause conflict, because there is no competing control).
Squatter's rights are arbitrary because they reverse the burden. What they mean is treating aggression as the default and self-defense as something to "file paperwork" for. Essentially ass-backwards ethics. The rightful owner does not need anyone's permission to exclude people from their property, and the aggressor needs consent to remain.
 
With a particular emphasis on the word "minor".
In case anyone cares, here's some of my own strictly libertarian takes on topics regarding minors, compiled from things I've said on this website, let me know if anyone takes an issue with those

On child rights
The answers are grounded in the same principle that grounds all rights, namely self-ownership. A child is a human being with a developing rational faculty. [...]
Two important things must be kept in mind, namely
  1. Parents/guardians do not own the child. They are stewards and not masters. Their role is custodial until the child matures.
  2. Maturity is objective, accordingly it is neither a popularity contest nor a one-size-fits-all solution. Maturity is a biological and cognitive reality and not up to a vote or cultural preference.
So the question of when a child becomes an adult is depending on whether someone has the requisite rational ability to understand what they're agreeing to. And when it comes to contracts, sex, or long-term commitments, the matter at hand is the maturity to grasp consequences and exercise judgment across time. Children can't have that, which is why guardianship exists in the first place. Consent to sexual intercourse presupposes a level of maturity that children simply don't have. The notion that a child can "consent" to sex with an adult is fraud at best and aggression at worst.
[...] anyone may enforce the law and you're not reliant on a third party to do it[.] You can literally go out there and legally use violence to exercise self-defense on behalf of molested children.

tl;dr
Adults harming children is aggression because it violates the self-ownership of the child. Adulthood is determined by rational capacity and not legal decree or arbitrary tradition. A society perpetuating abuse does not disprove the principle, it's just an example of a society engaging in systematic crime. Objective ethics do not bend to whatever a mob of subhumans tolerates.
[replying to the hypothetical "Gypsy A wants to marry Gypsy B, the 12 year old daughter of Gypsy C. They all consent. The whole gypsy ghetto consents. The Spanish Popo don't."]
Before anyone gets their panties in a twist, consider the following.

In order to have a theory of the rights of children, it must be clear what the nature of a child is.
In the context of law and rights, I think it makes the most sense to recognize that it is not physical, but mental development which defines childhood.
For instance, paraplegics like Stephen Hawking are incapable of commanding their body to do certain tasks, but they may still be adults. Although these disabled people lack certain abilities that are standard in most humans, they do not lack the characteristic mark of action, just the ability to wield many means which others take for granted.
So the defining mark of childhood in this context is psychological, as opposed to physiological immaturity.

From this nature of childhood, we can deduce that it is not a one-time switch flip, but it is possible for a given person to move in and out of psychological maturity through the course of their life.
Consider a sleeping man, certainly this man is (temporarily) psychologically immature. This individual is not capable of negotiating for his own care and instead requires others to do so for him.
This is especially relevant in the "what-if" scenario of an unconscious man lying in the snow and freezing to death. I argue that a paramedic taking this unconscious person to a hospital is analogous to a mother carrying her toddler.

This guardianship role taken up by the paramedic/mother is scarce and must be singly held by the homesteader, under libertarian property rights theory. The reason is simple, there can be conflicts over the specifics of how the guardianship is to be performed.

Childhood, to capture the nature of a child as a psychologically immature human, can be thus defined as the state of being incapable of expressing one's own will and the guardian is the person who takes it upon themself to preserve the child until a time that they gain the ability to express their will.

Now, if, in your hypothetical scenario, the 12 year old daughter of gypsy C is someone who is sufficiently developed in order to be psychologically mature, and she consents as well. Then there is no conflict.
The consent of the Spanish popo in this matter would not matter, unless the Spanish popo moves in to act, in which case they are an aggressor, in which case everybody has the right to use force against them.

If, however, the 12 year old daughter of gypsy C is not psychologically mature and therefore not capable of giving valid consent, then what is happening there falls under abuse performed by the guardian.

What is important to note here is that the guardian is not the owner of the child, but rather the owner of the right to protect that child. Any abuse performed by the guardian onto that child implies an abandonment of that right, implying that the guardian must notify interested parties that the child is available for adoption. In other words, the right to protect that child becomes up for homesteading.
Do note that this requirement to notify potential adopters is not a positive obligation, merely a negative obligation to not forestall.

To quote a bit from Ian Hersum (2020), A Rational Theory of the Rights of Children:

Since a child’s preferences cannot be known, the proper method of raising him is impossible to determine, so his guardian is largely free to engage in any actions that he wishes to in relation to the child, as long as he does not deprive him of his innate function or form. While refusing to feed (or care for in other ways) a child cannot be understood as an act of harm, since the resources required for such care belong to the guardian and not the child, it still constitutes an abandonment of guardianship rights, but cannot carry a penalty other than one for forestalling. Rather, harm in this context can only be rendered by an active (rather than passive) behavior on the part of an adult against a child. This rules out any form of neglect.​
There must be a direct causal link between the action and the effects suffered for it to be considered harmful. [... Verifiable] psychological damage suffered by a child, which is directly attributable to an act of torment inflicted on him by an adult, deprives him of his natural mental functioning which is innately his. This also applies to physiological damage, of which verification and attribution is considerably easier. Any scarring, maiming, mutilation, or other disfigurement, which deprives a child of his innate body, and was suffered as a result of actions taken against him by an adult, likewise qualifies as damage.​

In other words, if this marriage is merely a transfer of guardianship ownership, then no conflict has happened yet.
If someone tries to consummate the marriage, then that is clearly an invasion of the child's property rights.
Anybody may move in to enforce the child's rights, including the Spanish popo.
The Kirk Murphy article you linked is horrifying not because the events had the goal of "converting" a child, but because adults imposed a behavioral regime to force conformity to an identity the child didn't choose. The shit they did was coercive, outcome-driven, and indifferent to truth. That's the same rationale why contemporary gender affirmation practices are objectionable, because they "validate queerness" mechanically, on demand, through irreversible methods, and based on treating childhood self-narration as if it were a diagnostic fact.

In both cases, the problem is treating children as some sort of substance to be molded by adult ideology. Both transing kids and conversion therapy have in common a complete failure to realize that children are neither moral free agents nor adult-owned clay. And I'm convinced that anyone who understands that point won't defend either
Many tradcons don't oppose coercion at all, they just oppose deviation. That's why they'll call gender surgeries child abuse, but find chemical castration for fags hunky dory. Their standard is not consent or integrity, their standard is obedience to a moral blueprint
A principled stance rejects both trooning out and child abuse because it recognizes that children aren't some property to be fixed, punished, or sculpted, regardless if it's being done by progressives or reactionaries
On parenting
Parents don't own children. They brought them into existence and are responsible for not aggressing against them. Neglect that results in aggression (like letting a child starve while obstructing others from helping) violates the child's rights. But no, unless the parents agree otherwise, there is no state-like "legal code". The framework is liability and restitution under property rights.
In case that wasn't clear enough: Everybody has the right to help children, everybody has the right to enforce the child's property rights as an intervening third party. Forestalling/obstruction is aggression and can be met with force.
Children, like adults, don't get property "for free", not food, not clothing, not shelter. Rights don't magically produce goods, they only define what others may not do to you. The rights of a child mean that nobody may aggress against them and nobody may block others from offering them help.
So a child does not automatically "own" food or clothing just by existing. But parents, by bringing a child into the world, create the special liability. They can't simply let the child starve while forbidding others from stepping in. That obstruction would be aggression against the child's body. If the parents refuse to provide, then they have to relinquish guardianship of the child to others who will.
Rights != guaranteed goods; rights == boundaries against aggression.
Parents don't magically owe their children goods simply by virtue of their existence. Rights are not claims upon other people's resources, they are boundaries against aggression. Children have the right to not be starved, beaten, or blocked from receiving help. If parents refuse to provide, they forfeit guardianship to others who will.
The more important question is what a parent actually is in relation to a child. A parent is not primarily an owner experimenting with techniques, a parent is a guardian of a developing agent. That means that some things are not optional. The parent has to meet the child's needs (food, shelter, safety, education in the broad sense) because otherwise the parent is not preserving the child's life. Beyond that, what gets called "responsiveness" is just discretion over wants. You may say yes, you may say no, but either way you're not violating the rights of the child.
Same with "demanding".
Spare the rod, spoil the child.
presumes discipline as punishment. But the real distinction is between punishment and consequence. A parent can set terms for how their household is run, after all it's their property and access to it is conditional. If a child makes a mess, requiring them to clean it is restitution. If they refuse, restricting privileges is enforcement of house rules. If someone calls this sadism, point out it's the same principle that governs all human interaction, you don't get to damage what isn't yours without making it right.

I'm looking at this from the perspective of a parent. [A parent should] be asking [themself] "are you meeting the needs your guardianship obliges you to? are you drawing consistent boundaries? are you letting the child grow into an agent who can respect the same rights in others?"
Everything else [regarding parenting theories and fads] is just window-dressing
The truth is that there is no central planner with the authority to dictate what a "right" number of kids is. The ideal family size is not something decided by tradition, religion, the government, or demographic charts. It's something that emerges from a product of values, resources, and the voluntary choices of individuals. And to reflect the circumstances of reality, those choices must be made freely, not out of guilt or pressure from abstract ideals, regardless of whether those ideals are "saving the planet" or "saving the nation"
[...] Big families can be beautiful, but only when each child is treated as an end in themselves, not as a prop for ideology or validation. And small families can thrive when they're built on mutual presence and love, not absentee economics.

On the central question of the poll, I would instead encourage everyone to ask themselves this: Do I want to bring a new sovereign consciousness into this world, and do I have the means to nurture it with dignity, not as a ward of some failing system?
Whatever honest answer you find to that question, if it was made without coercion, it's probably the right one. That's more than any central planner could ever claim.
On "parents rights vs child rights"
A child is a volitional being in development, psychologically immature and not yet able to fully express their own will or act on it. Guardianship is the exclusive authority to preserve the child until they can direct their own life. It is a rivalrous right, but this is neither ownership of the child or its body, nor is it a license to mold them according to some preference
That right is homesteaded by the first to actually perform the work of guardianship, typically the mother from conception onward due to continuous proximity. The guardian's sole mandate is to maintain the child's original, unconsented bodily and mental state (the condition before they are able to agree to any change) until the child can make informed decisions. Interventions are justified only to preserve or restore that state (e.g. life-saving surgery), not to make alterations for aesthetic or speculative reasons

"Best interest" cannot be defined by a court, a culture, or a political faction. It boils down to a single standard, namely actions that prevent conflict between the child's future will and what is done to them before they can speak it. "Parental rights" exist only insofar as they serve that goal. The moment a guardian actively harms the child or obstructs others from taking over preservation, they forfeit that role.

If you see it this clearly, there is no irresolvable clash between "parental rights" and "child's best interest". They are not opposing claims, but two descriptions of the same underlying structure (the right to guard, bounded by the duty not to damage what one is guarding)
On consent
[When it comes to leftists and other degenerates who die on the hill of "consent"] the problem is that consent gets utilized as a moral placeholder in a worldview that doesn't have a stable compass whatsoever. Once it's detached from ownership, "consent" is floating in space, invoking it is a signal of "legitimacy", but it has no fixed meaning anymore. That's why the same dipshits who say "the chicken didn't consent" also say "the child did consent". It's not a contradiction in their framework, because there is no framework. That kind of discourse is not grounded in ethics, it's just a performance, a pretense of principle

Consent only has normative weight when it corresponds to rightful control (property). You can only consent to the use of what you own. Without that anchor, "consent" is like a cargo cult virtue, something that's gestured at to bless whatever needs a retroactive moral cover.
Consent is a question of capacity. Just like, today, courts evaluate whether someone is competent to sign a contract or a will, the same standard would apply to sexual acts. Is the person in question capable of informed consent? Children, by definition, aren't, which is why sexual acts with them count as aggression. Essentially, people aren't the same, so a one-size-fits-all solution is ludicrous.
On whether it's okay to force a child to eat disliked food
If the child's refusal to eat food threatens the child's survival (not eating enough to live), then intervention is justified as preservation. An analogous situation would be shielding the child from falling off a cliff. However, if the child just dislikes food, yet remains healthy, then it is unjustified to coerce them into eating it. The guardian's right to intervene applies only where the will is underdeveloped and non-intervention would destroy or permanently impair that development.
On whether a child may decide unilaterally on homeschooling and similar decisions
Safe to say that a 3-year-old's cognitive maturity is not sufficient for him to meaningfully self-direct education. Guardians decide the form of instruction only to the extent necessary for preservation and preparation toward autonomy. Accordingly, "to homeschool or not to homeschool" is not an ethical question for the child yet, just a prudential matter for the guardian. The guardian's duty is to preserve or cultivate the child's capacity for future self-ownership, not to indoctrinate or exploit.
However, it is true that government schooling is by nature indoctrination, for it's safe to assume it systematically subverts or retards the child's future capacity for rational self-direction, forcing obedience and dependency rather than reason. Accordingly, you can argue that to put the child in a public school when homeschooling is possible is a conflict-creating action against the child's developing will.
On school and obedience
You and I agree with the notion that the Prussian-style education model is kinda shit
This top-down factory-like structure has shaped not just how kids learn, but also what they're taught to regard as valuable or true
It's hard to separate that from the broader context of systems designed to produce compliance, not independent thought

I'd be cautious with the idea of "reform" in the usual sense
There's a difference between changing how obedience is taught and questioning why obedience is the presumed goal in the first place
The push for standardization, central control, and curriculum monopolies (often through textbook cartels or credentialing rackets) are not like a bug or operational incident, they are deeply baked into the structure

Some of the more interesting alternatives I have seen don't just change the content or method, but rethink what education is when it's free from this kind of institutional coercion
Self-directed models, voluntary learning networks, even the idea of education as a service subject to market forces, all of these change the question from "how do we shape the child?" to "how do we respect the learner?"
On CP
Child molestation by its very nature violates the libertarian principles of non-aggression, voluntary exchange, and respect for individual rights. Children are being exploited and harmed, and children are individuals who usually cannot give meaningful informed consent. The vast majority of, if not all, libertarians outright condemn such actions
The idea that libertarianism somehow enables or supports such a behavior is not just false, it's a smear tactic with no basis in reality
Child molestation violates the core libertarian principle of non-aggression, condemning it is not just obvious, but essential.
The production of child porn requires child abuse. Accordingly, the child porn itself is evidence of aggression, and perpetuating it incentivizes further abuse. Accordingly, child porn is impermissible.
On child labor
Work itself is not aggression, the question is whether the work is voluntary, safe, and within the capacity of the child. A 15-year-old working in a family shop is not the same as a 7-year-old forced into a mine. The state has often made things worse by banning the former and driving families into the latter.
On inheritance and third-party obligations
The owner designates a successor, the successor accepts. Inheritance is a voluntary transfer of an existing title.
But [things like the "social contract" are] an imposition. You're claiming that people who never agreed to anything are automatically parties to a centuries-old "valid contract" they never signed, can't refuse, and can't renegotiate. That's basically feudal theology. Documentation and acceptance, and not DNA, are the crucial aspects.
tl;dr a child can receive a gift from his parents, but he can't be born owing allegiance to their ancestors
Always relevant
AGPs and child molesters etc. are not an argument for giving someone else a badge and a permission to rule. It's just a reminder that cowardice and confusion exist and that no system can run on the absence of virtue.
It's very very trivial that every society requires that people uphold boundaries and take responsibility. What's unique about libertarianism is that libertarians don't pretend that a monopoly on violence is going to do it for them.
Describing coercion as a natural phenomenon doesn't justify it. The universe also allows for slavery, predation, extinction, genocide, child rape, animal torture, all sorts of things. That doesn't make these things principles.
You are right that power concentrates and you're right that force exists. But none of that answers the fundamental ethical question. Who gets to use it, and when?
 
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In case anyone cares, here's some of my own strictly libertarian takes on topics regarding minors, compiled from things I've said on this website, let me know if anyone takes an issue with those

Not replying to that, but I found the sci-fi series that got it to work with an Alien Shadow Cruiser that got sold to bronze age crabpeople.


It got review bombed by SJWs and browns so that's a plus! Far right propaganda with military vets, alien tech lolbert state, and a good chuck of (sometimes rather deserved) hatred on red tape of all kinds of bureucrats. So if you ever get abducted by aliens dumber than orks and snatch their hand me down warcruiser, do NOT invite browns to your Moon Nation.

They'll just demand gibs and will ruin your utopia. Plus the Warcruiser's not even real AI can easily 24/7 spy on every human in existance, so don't give it to the unnamed (King Nigger) president that wants to take your guns away!

Later there is a hafu american girl so the later installments score better since it is no longer only icky white men.
 
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It's all so tiresome
I was just quoting back the first book's reviews. The later books, which add the all races are equal interracial romance plot and how the dumb liberals are keeping the black man down with gibsmuh are much better rated and gathered far less SJW outrage.

Funny thing is, I checked it out, and one chapter-starting Earth newsflash was Ukraine and Belorussia are joining the war to help the Russian Government take Moscow back from rebels! which is just hilarious. It also has ones about the US falling apart, Mexico and California trying to take out Texas, Britain dissolving to form an islamic country, Paris being sieged and taken during an Intifada, the latter two don't seem that far fetched still. I could even see the olympics awarding gold participation awards to all entries too. The books were from a decade ago.

And a theme of how libertarians try to wrangle an alien invasion. The alien bits are quite fun when the author manages to not talk about alien porn or the lack of it, and it morphs into Henlein/Star Trek crossover with less and less focus on Earth and politics, and lolberts getting more into the idea that they do need a limited citizen only direct democracy state to fight back against the endless aliens they piss off, who always happen to be silly. The main antagonists are a mix of all the bad traits of the Dominion from Star Trek, the Empire from Star Wars and the Imperium of Warhammer but without any of their positives and a research policy that makes the Mechanicus look reckless by comparison.
 
and lolberts getting more into the idea that they do need a limited citizen only direct democracy state to fight back against the endless aliens they piss off
That is absurdly tiresome.
Ah yes, we all must abandon literally the ONE CENTRAL POINT that libertarianism hinges on because of situation xyz.
I dunno if that makes me a puristic autist, but to me that's nothing but the most authoritarian commie gobbledigook
 
The owner designates a successor, the successor accepts. Inheritance is a voluntary transfer of an existing title.
But what you described earlier was an imposition. You're claiming that people who never agreed to anything are automatically parties to a centuries-old "valid contract" they never signed, can't refuse, and can't renegotiate. That's basically feudal theology. Documentation and acceptance, and not DNA, are the crucial aspects.
tl;dr a child can receive a gift from his parents, but he can't be born owing allegiance to their ancestors
I'm sure you're familiar of "next of kin." A family member passes, they outline a will for whatever properties or monies would go to xyz member. Would this principle apply is there IS no next of kin or nobody wants to claim ownership? Even better, no next of kin but some other family member wants to dispute the will or claim ownership?
And a theme of how libertarians try to wrangle an alien invasion. The alien bits are quite fun when the author manages to not talk about alien porn or the lack of it, and it morphs into Henlein/Star Trek crossover with less and less focus on Earth and politics,
That's science fiction. If you want to be allegorical, make it make sense.
 
I'm sure you're familiar of "next of kin."
If the owner leaves a will, that is the final expression of their property rights, it's essentially a delayed transfer of title. The designated recipient becomes the rightful successor only if they accept the transfer. Nobody has an automatic claim based on blood alone.
Would this principle apply is there IS no next of kin or nobody wants to claim ownership?
In that situation, the property becomes unowned. Similar to abandoned property, it reverts to a state where first appropriation/homesteading rules apply. The first person to take control of, use, or maintain it becomes the new owner. That is, ownership only is attached when a mind takes responsibility for a thing.
Even better, no next of kin but some other family member wants to dispute the will or claim ownership?
If the owner left a will designating someone else, that document overrides all blood-based claims, for a will expresses intent, which, unlike lineage, is respected by property norms. That means that any relative has exactly the same standing as a total stranger. They may inherit only if the owner choose them or if nobody else claims it and the estate becomes unowned.
In the case of a dispute, the will is treated like any other voluntary contract. If the will is authentic, the owner's intent is binding. To dispute it, a challenger must demonstrate fraud, coercion, or forgery. Without that, their disagreement has no normative force.

That is, absent any voluntary agreement saying otherwise, there exist no enforceable or metaphysical "blood rights" or hereditary obligations. There's only consistently applied voluntary transfer and first appropriation
 
If the owner left a will designating someone else, that document overrides all blood-based claims, for a will expresses intent, which, unlike lineage, is respected by property norms. That means that any relative has exactly the same standing as a total stranger. They may inherit only if the owner choose them or if nobody else claims it and the estate becomes unowned.
Estate. that's it. I believe the estate owner would inherit debt placed on that estate. I'm not versed on law, but I would imagine you'd have to agree to transfer ownership of an estate of fight for it in court. Say you inherit debt from a will or estate without your knowledge, could you decline that under libertarianism? If so, what would happen?
 
Estate. that's it. I believe the estate owner would inherit debt placed on that estate. I'm not versed on law, but I would imagine you'd have to agree to transfer ownership of an estate of fight for it in court. Say you inherit debt from a will or estate without your knowledge, could you decline that under libertarianism? If so, what would happen?
Under a libertarian framework, debt can never be inherited without consent. Debt is a contractual obligation and contracts only bind the parties who voluntarily agreed to them. If you did not sign the loan, use the credit, or explicitly accept liability, then the debt is not yours, regardless who died.
Contemporary legal systems treat heirs as default payers because the state wants to protect lenders by force. This is completely incompatible with libertarian property norms. Estate inheritance is not automatic debt inheritance, and debt only survives the debtor if the successor chooses to assume it. That is, the creditor's claim attaches to the estate, not to random living people. You can always decline an inheritance, so if the estate has $100k in assets and $300k in debt, you don't get "forced" into the red, for you can simply decline, and the debt remains the responsibility of the deceased's estate, not of the heirs. If the estate has insufficient assets, the creditor eats the loss (that's how risk works). And if everyone declines to inherit the estate, then just like unowned property, unclaimed assets and unclaimed debts fall out of the market. The assets can be appropriated by whoever takes possession and the debts remain uncollectable unless the lender can claim some collateral in the estate.
But there is no such thing as a situation in which a lender magically gets to force an unrelated human into servitude because someone else who owed money happened to die.
 
Quite frankly, everything that was said feels vague or like truisms.
Reality exists and is primary. Everything in reality is what it is and acts according to its nature. There exist living beings. Life itself is not a done deal, it is contingent on continued sustenance and life-sustaining measures. Among living beings are those with volition and agency, aka the capacity for goal-directed action. All purposeful action requires the use of means, among which are physical objects. Physical objects are rivalrous, such that two or more agents cannot simultaneously use the same good in incompatible ways without getting into a physical conflict with one another.
This all strikes me as truisms, unless you find the ten Platonists or Gnostics who exist. In which case they'll dispute the first sentence, and you will never win because they're schizophrenic. I understand your laying out your beliefs, but it feels pointless, and like such truisms are being used to cloak the next few jumps in logic.
Because conflict over rivalrous goods is possible, norms become necessary to enable peaceful coexistence among agents.
This is simply not true peaceful coexistence is not necessary, proof and point is all of history, and what peaceful coexistence means is vague. I won't elaborate much on since I think my next points are far stronger. Just wanted to point out a jump in logic.
The only universalizable non-contradictory rule that resolves conflict is respect for each agent's control over what they first appropriate (homesteading) or acquire by consent (production trade).
That rule, which you may have heard of as libertarian property rights theory, or libertarian property assignment rules, is the only coherent ethic. Accordingly, the only permissible social/political outcome is "anarcho-capitalism" or "libertarianism" or a free society
I feel like every government from the beginning of time could fall under this. Now you may say they stole it or conquered or captured it, and that's fair. But that would mean all land must be handed back to now forgotten owners who originally had it. Obviously this is unrealistic and not favorable and so we must assume some amnesty at some point. Which gets into the issue. When the land was conquered it was conquered or colonized by the people working under the government explicitly for the government. In a sense either being a form of violent or sometimes peaceful homesteading, which as discussed we have to forgive. Furthermore likely at some point it was acquired consensually as those who already lived on the land or were conquered would slowly establish a calmer relationships overtime, and agree to give the government control. In return for taxation they'd get protection and a legal framework. A consensual trade made long ago. In these two senses all land in a nation is the private property of the government. Now of course as the owner of the property they are allowed to charge rent, and protect it with force from theft or damage or use in a non permissible fashion. thus taxation is just rent, and police violence and force is just preventing theft or exploitation of their property. Arguably, not paying taxes is theft.

Now some may say that they didn't agree to these terms. But being born on someone's property doesn't give them rights over it. So they can just leave if they don't agree. Now if their issue is that the terms are like this everywhere, they'd essentially be arguing for property redistribution like a communist. In this sense literally every government is justified under your beliefs. It seems the only real issue is wording.

Who knows, maybe I'm wrong and there is a clever retort to all of this.

Now for the real issue.
A point I need to make very clear is the nuance between description, justification, and implementation. This thread is pertaining to normative philosophy, that means description or implementation are off-topic.
You already won, from the beginning the universe was anarchist and continues to be so. So if you're problem is philosophy then I guess your kinda just arguing for no wars. But I think like most libertarians you have bigger gripes. Your issue is you dislike the implementation. People chose to implement and continue through acceptance, inaction, or perpetuate things like governments. It's entirely an issue of culture and morals, something libertarians and Ancaps rarely discuss. In this sense they're not proposing an ideology or system, but a power vacuum. Nothing promoted by libertarians: individualism, freedom, consumerism, etc. would prevent any system controlled by them from falling back into the same issues of today. Everyone already believes in that stuff. The hope most libertarians seem to bet on is markets sorting this out but markets are not driven by themselves they are driven by people. The culture of those people will change the market.

You really should only be talking about implementation as that's really the only thing that matters. And not implementation as if you're supreme commander of some country. As this requires government power which even if obtained means your building a fantasy top down. Instead it should be from your current point at this moment to your hypothetical utopia. I think the inevitable conclusion ends up being you have to form a new community who have shared ethics, make money, and expand. Kinda like the Amish. The focus on implementation forces one to construct a belief system based in logically connecting form to function. Which gets you closer to reality both in philosophical logic and in actually making your ideas come true. This is the issue all movements today face in my opinion.
 
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Quite frankly, everything that was said feels vague or like truisms.
Well, these things are the foundation that grounds the things that follow.
[Long middle section]
You're mixing up two questions, namely how property titles originated in history and what makes any title legitimate. The philosophy I outline deals with the latter. To argue that governments homesteaded through conquest is to mistake coercion for control. The fact that violence happened doesn't make it rightful, any more than murder becomes medicine if enough time passes. What time can do is erase memory, but it can't erase contradictions.
Consent after conquest is just as incoherent. Submission under duress is not consent and longevity does not transform a coerced monopoly into legitimate property. A landlord who beats up tenants until they "agree" to pay rent is still a criminal, even if their grandchildren forget the beatings.
The "taxation as rent" point quietly assumes the thing it needs to prove, namely that a government can own people's lives and the fruits of their labor. If every individual's body and time are already the government's property, then there is no room left for voluntary exchange at all and ethics collapses into feudal possession. Essentially you're making a distinction between theft and ownership while denying it at the same time.
You already won, from the beginning the universe was anarchist and continues to be so.
Half-true, but misleading. All action is by individuals, but coercive monopolies continue to exist precisely because people are indoctrinated and conditioned to think power is right.
You really should only be talking about implementation as that's really the only thing that matters.
Implementation matters once the principle is settled. The purpose of this thread is to test whether the principle is false. And so far not one single person has successfully shown how any of the axioms, premises, or conclusions is contradictory.
 
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