Attack libertarian/anarcho-capitalist philosophy - see if you can do it

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That's a historical observation, not an argument. This thread is about whether libertarian ethics are true, not to describe where they have been implemented. "It only works in niche cases" is a description of an outcome, it does not address whether voluntary exchange and property rights are the only non-contradictory basis for human coexistence
Yeah there's never an answer for that, as that's just a strand of a philosophy that is just a personal opinion. You're more just asking for rhetoric; I gave you the closest thing to objectivity via observation of reality, in which of course you can draw your own conclusions from that and make your own observations.

Debate founded on abstraction is infinite, really only ending when somebody runs out of energy.
 
Yeah there's never an answer for that, as that's just a strand of a philosophy that is just a personal opinion. You're more just asking for rhetoric; I gave you the closest thing to objectivity via observation of reality, in which of course you can draw your own conclusions from that and make your own observations.

Debate founded on abstraction is infinite, really only ending when somebody runs out of energy.
Saying "it's all opinion" is nothing but a refusal to participate in reasoned discourse.
Notice how the claim that ethics are just personal opinion is itself an ethical claim (namely the claim that no norm is binding). Which you assert as true while denying that truth applies.
Either cease with your relativism and argue a coherent position or concede that the denial of truth cannot be true
 
reasoned discourse
This isn't reasoned discorse. Reasoned discourse was what I led with, just observing and discussing observations.

Notice how the claim that ethics are just personal opinion is itself an ethical claim (namely the claim that no norm is binding).
It isn't. I'm not telling you to feel bad, good, or the like, I'm just saying what I see.

Which you assert as true while denying that truth applies.
Again, I led with "truth" (observed reality) in discussing Singapore and general economic observations.

Either cease with your relativism and argue a coherent position or concede that the denial of truth cannot be true
I did argue a coherent position; that ancap is a niche economic system that primarily works in only specific moments.

You trying to create an abstraction of objectivity ("ancap is [this] always") is just the creation of an opinion surrounded by dense abstractions, which doesn't apply to the world; since the world is dynamic and not static. You could say "truth" is dynamic and weighted in different ways, further differentiated by context. What's objectively true one moment isn't objectively true the next.
 
This isn't reasoned discorse. Reasoned discourse was what I led with, just observing and discussing observations.


It isn't. I'm not telling you to feel bad, good, or the like, I'm just saying what I see.


Again, I led with "truth" (observed reality) in discussing Singapore and general economic observations.


I did argue a coherent position; that ancap is a niche economic system that primarily works in only specific moments.

You trying to create an abstraction of objectivity ("ancap is [this] always") is just the creation of an opinion surrounded by dense abstractions, which doesn't apply to the world; since the world is dynamic and not static. You could say "truth" is dynamic and weighted in different ways, further differentiated by context. What's objectively true one moment isn't objectively true the next.
So you're shifting from ethics to epistemology... then stay consistent within that frame
If truth is dynamic and what's true one moment isn't true the next, what you're doing is erasing the distinction between a change in facts and a change in truth-value. The facts change when Singapore policy changes, but the law of non-contradiction remains as it is. "Two agents cannot simultaneously control one rivalrous object" remains true regardless of century or culture.
The ethical claim built on that (the libertarian notion that conflict avoidance requires exclusive control and consent) depends only on that ontological fact, not on economic outcomes. If you believe that those conditions sometimes stop being true, then identify the circumstance where two agents can both control the same scarce good without conflict.
Regardless, your "dynamic truth" is contradictory. You are using a static truth (about change) to deny that any static truths exist.
 
If you want to bring something tangible to what you're arguing, then do so. Otherwise this is all just memetically dense abstractions. And you'll just keep aggressively, utlimately passive aggressively, attempting to erase everything I say, which in retrospect is the point of a thread titled "debate me" "on philosophy". Exactly what Charlie Kirk did, come to think of it.

I'll leave you to it then.
 
Última edición:
If you want to bring something tangible to what you're arguing, then do so. Otherwise this is all just memetically dense abstractions. And you'll just keep aggressively, utlimately passive aggressively, attempting to erase everything I say, which in retrospect is the point of a thread titled "debate me" "on philosophy". Exactly what Charlie Kirk did, come to think of it.

I'll leave you to it then.
You still haven't brought forth a counter-argument. All you've done is rate posts Dumb and assert things like "it's all opinion" or "truth is dynamic"
When asked to name a concrete case where two agents can control the same scarce good without conflict, you sidestepped the matter and misunderstood the scope of the thread
If you're done, good. It means there's less noise
 
I did argue a coherent position; that ancap is a niche economic system that primarily works in only specific moments.

You trying to create an abstraction of objectivity ("ancap is [this] always") is just the creation of an opinion surrounded by dense abstractions,
I can see ancap working within Scandinavian countries due to their lower population density and their self sustainability. Then again, they’d likely have a government that would allow their culture to flourish unimpeded. As in, not allowing third world migrants in.
 
How would this system deal with other actors that aren't following it?

Long ago, I have read a military-libertarian science fiction novel. I do not recall its name.

The plot was over arching, but I'll try to summarize it.



Aliens abduct a lolbert between 1990 or 2010. A farmer or something like that. Turns out the aliens are retarded, and they have either stolen or been given a ship from a much more advanced alien race.

The lolberts overtake the barely above stone age aliens and wrest control of this super advanced spaceship.

They set the computer or AI of the ship to manufacture a weaponised satellite swarm around Earth. This happens by the time the feds come knocking at some of this lolbert family, group or clan.

The lolberts demonstrate that these weaponised satellites can individiually target and kill any person on Earth. This gets the Feds to back off, as the lolberts in space would protect the lolberts on Earth. Put your mind wiper back MIB, or the space railgun or laser will drill a hole in your head from the heavens!

After this point, the lolberts have escaped Earth, and set up the libertarian heaven that OP wishes for. Everyone can work, move and only has to abide by the laws of the asteroid post scarcity habitat they are currently inhabiting.

Earth has become a slum, where impotent nation states are under full automatic surveillance and the lolberts can take people they want up to their asteroid bases, if both parties agree.

The novel afterwards turns more into military part of the sci-fi.

Eventually after two centuries, Earth settles down (whenever they gain alien tech I don't recall) and the lolberts have unlocked from that first ship space travel. They have formed a Lolbert Navy. This becomes the new "state" of the human species, arbitrating between various asteroid habitats.

The Navy is a meritocratic volunteer organisation, a lot like Star Trek but with more military for jarheads to drool at.

The galactic plot is as follows, there is an ancient Alien Empire that has lost its technological edge, or aquired and hoarded it from precursors. They do not understand how fully their tech works.

They keep other alien races under their heel by depriving them of technology and keeping them in a feudal state where they can't advance enough to be able to use the tech in any way the Master aliens don't want them to. Middle ages bandits with lasers gun, and extra arms and alien parts. That's why the lolberts could outthink the aliens, they were retarded slavers who couldn't write, only commanding the ship by speaking to it. Kind of like zoomers or Indians.

Following after it is the details on how the smart, independent, ingenious humans kick this ancient, bureucratic, monarchical empire's ass. Its not much relevant to lolberts afterwards.


So we got this 10-30 year old book where the lolberts are given a literal god-weapon by the universe and good fortune. This allows them to escape the STATE.

But they must keep the filthy Earthlings down on Earth to keep the Lolbert Asteroids pure and ethical. This needs computer-driven orbital guns that are always ready in case of USA or China trying to launch rockets. Space is off limits for GOV.

Even than, there are snippets like how they needed a Navy to keep the asteroids in line. A vague justification is given to the impartiality of the Navy because all space habitats are small and they recruit as diversely as they can to keep it pure. Plus how some asteroids are allowing wage-slavery (you should have read the rules better stupid) or how others want to pass a law that needs you to disclose your age/sex change operations, because you don't want your blue skinned, 2 meter tall space woman to be actually a 250 years old man, or how a 250 years old mind has unfair advantage in dating compared to a man in his 20s, despite them both looking the same due to age-stopping, full body altering technology.

This navy is a hierarchy that promotes on merits and officers are all contracted after their promotions are agreed upon by other high ranking officers and the officer in question.

So in the end, lolberts need to make what we could call a government, or at least a space navy federal agency. Their asteroid habitats were chosen for ideological purity and the Earthlings were undesirables constrained to their planet, a brain drain farm on a worldwide scale.

Ironic, no?
 
How would this system deal with other actors that aren't following it?
The same way any sane social order handles aggressors. Proportional defense + restitution + ex ante risk controls (bounded property, access control, contracts, bonds/insurance, blacklists, ostracization). None of them require a monopoly state.
A "navy" can exist as a voluntary defense firm/league. That is, funded by consensual means, contracts setting mission scope, possible competition from peers, and full exit rights. That by itself is not a state, it would only become a state the moment it claims compulsory jurisdiction, territorial monopoly, or taxation and forbids rivals, at which point it's an aggressor and may be dealt with as such. The line is simple in that monopoly and coercive funding are unethical.

In simple terms: If a non-adherent doesn't aggress, ignore them. If they do aggress, restrain proportionally and exact restitution. If they keep offending, raise prices/denials via insurers, tighten covenant terms, or physically exclude them.
 
The same way any sane social order handles aggressors. Proportional defense + restitution + ex ante risk controls (bounded property, access control, contracts, bonds/insurance, blacklists, ostracization). None of them require a monopoly state.
A "navy" can exist as a voluntary defense firm/league. That is, funded by consensual means, contracts setting mission scope, possible competition from peers, and full exit rights. That by itself is not a state, it would only become a state the moment it claims compulsory jurisdiction, territorial monopoly, or taxation and forbids rivals, at which point it's an aggressor and may be dealt with as such. The line is simple in that monopoly and coercive funding are unethical.

In simple terms: If a non-adherent doesn't aggress, ignore them. If they do aggress, restrain proportionally and exact restitution. If they keep offending, raise prices/denials via insurers, tighten covenant terms, or physically exclude them.

That is for fellow anarcho-libertarian folks. What happens IF there is any outside factor? A non libertarian state that is centralised and thus more efficient? Aliens?

What would such a place to do when it is attacked from the outside, or infiltrated by spies?
 
That is for fellow anarcho-libertarian folks. What happens IF there is any outside factor? A non libertarian state that is centralised and thus more efficient? Aliens?

What would such a place to do when it is attacked from the outside, or infiltrated by spies?
Please keep in mind that the scope of this thread is normative, and the question of what happens in every messy contingency is off-topic.
That said, I'll give you a concise answer.

The normative baseline is that, if an outside actor attacks, that actor is the aggressor. To respond with defensive or restitutional force is not an initiation of aggression, it's correction and protection in response to initiated aggression.
Under this context, in a libertarian order, what you can expect is voluntary and contracted defense (think private defense firms, insurance underwriters, mutual security pacts, exclusion and embargo mechanisms, consent-financed deterrent capabilities). Essentially firms that can maintain defensive arsenals and rapid-response teams under contract, operate intelligence/counterintelligence under agreed rules, enforce exclusion (blocking access to ports, denying service, confiscating stolen goods) and render restitution against proven aggressors.
Regarding efficiency, you need to keep in mind that centralized states may be efficient at projecting power because they simply have quasi-infinite access to money via coercion and taxation. That efficiency, however, is ethically irrelevant because coercive funding and monopoly are themselves aggressive. The instrumental fact of efficiency does not convert an unethical method into an ethical method. And to speak of state militaries and armies as efficient is downright delusional given the empirical evidence.
Regarding spies, think of countermeasures as contractual and technical. Things like vetting, compartmentalization, crypto, bonded contractors, watchdogs, and making espionage unprofitable (insurance penalties, blacklists, reprisals targeted at proven agents). The risk of infiltration increases operational costs and that risk is priced in by markets (insurance premiums, stronger covenants, refusal to trade).
If a rival really does conquer, then the situation is that you're under coercive control and resistance and restoration of rights remain normatively justified. The presence of a conqueror does not justify joining them. How exactly you resist is an implementation choice (sociology, strategy) and not a refutation of the ethic or normatively relevant.
The bottom line is that foreign threats and spies are empirical problems that defensive institutions can solve. And that they don't negate the normative claim that initiation of force is unjustified.
 
I did not ask about how ethical would such an attack by lets say, North Korea, Iran, USA etc would be, or if it would be ethical to fight back.

I am asking how can you actually do it in a way that doesn't involve the creation of mega firms like Boeing, Lockheed, and paramilitaries like the Blackwater?

Because all of those actors could then be needed to be watched for any subversion themselves.

A hypothetical libertarian ... collective? Cooperative? Economic Area? Lets call it Utopialand, would have to be careful and make sure these defence contractors are not doing any warlording. Because oh boy it would be a golden opportunity to warlord, even if they could somehow beat back a more unified enemy with a well built chain of command. Because without a general, all these little militias would need to somehow coordinate at every other militia. Just planning anything more major than a local response would take years of wrangling between the contractor warlords. That's before stocking up weapons for such an attack even factors in. Who would be paying, storing and maintaining wargear? Who would be paying for it?

A voluntary group funding? But then what happens if Jimmy Joe did not pay into the pot, yet he owns the land that is strategically important? Do the Utopian militias give him a freebie? Jimmy Joe is a pacifist farmer who hasn't consented to his land being used for warfare, he won't consent to paying for it later either.

King Kim can just say, fuck you, you arr paypig, pay tax, if enemy shows up it gets boom! File the altirrely!

Modern armies haven't been used so they are rusty, but Russia is now altering their hierarchy to finetune it to quick threat responses. Small things like drone and artillery strike protocols.

You can't just say that you solved the world's problems and just not elaborate on how. Ethics in that case are useless. I could do that too. I call my system Infinite Money. Everyone has infinite money and can buy infinite things. The how? That's up to you, I found out that being poor is bad, so ethically everyone should get infinity marks in their banks. It is ethically sound, the physical feasability of giving everyone a yact made out of gold and diamonds is not important.
 
You're asking me to speculate about military and logistics in a thread about normativity... Fine, I'll humor you
I am asking how can you actually do it in a way that doesn't involve the creation of mega firms like Boeing, Lockheed, and paramilitaries like the Blackwater?
Design institutions that make monopoly and unilateral command unprofitable and practically impossible. In practice, it's a combination of keeping defense production and heavy capability owned in distributed trusts (with multi-stakeholder ownership, think coalitions of insurers, communities, and vetted contractors) and not by one private firm, requiring multi-signature activation for offensive use, and separating production, storage and command (different firms with overlapping audits and bonds so that no single actor can seize control. With those kind of market forces and legal covenants, warlording is not just reputationally suicidal but immensely costly.
Who would be paying, storing and maintaining wargear? Who would be paying for it?
Payment is trivial, it's a combination of voluntary contracts, insurance markets, and conditional access rules. In other words, land-owners and residents can voluntarily join a defense covenant that grants access to shared infrastructure in exchange for payment or accepting a lien. Insurance underwriters will offer policies that require membership in vetted defense pacts, and refusing to join increases premiums or results in denied service. Storage and maintenance can be contracted with bonded vendors under audit, with insurers underwriting replacement and demanding transparency. What happens with markets is an internalization of externalities, since those who refuse to pay bear the cost (higher premiums, denied trade, inability to use shared services)
But then what happens if Jimmy Joe did not pay into the pot, yet he owns the land that is strategically important?
Property owners who refuse to join a defense covenant retain their title, but they also retain the risks and foregone benefits that come with refusing shared defense. In terms of practical responses that are ethically permissible, I can think of a couple. The most obvious one is denying services (no insurance, no access to defense-controlled ports/shipyards, no trade with covenant members). Also in scope is pre-authorized emergency rules in covenants (think: if an attack is imminent, a narrowly scoped time-limited defense action may use property, like staging from neutral land, with after-the-fact restitution obligations imposed on those who benefit) and liens or restitution orders against proven aggressors or those who accept protection benefits without paying. The crucial aspect is that any coercive step must be defensive or restitutive.
Because all of those actors could then be needed to be watched for any subversion themselves.
Exactly, which is why checks need to be embedded. Like independent auditors, cross-stakeholder boards, bonded penalties for malfeasance, and market-based deterrents (instant reputation systems, tradable bonds that lose value on misbehavior, etc.). When powerful actors are expensive to maintain without transparent accountability, warlording becomes a bad business model.
Just planning anything more major than a local response would take years of wrangling between the contractor warlords.
Which is why standing mutual defense pacts with pre-agreed protocols (rules of engagement, mobilization thresholds, funding triggers) are important. Think of them as commercial alliance contracts that activate depending on clear metrics (like verified aggression). With such pre-agreement, you avoid last minute wrangling.
You can't just say that you solved the world's problems and just not elaborate on how. Ethics in that case are useless.
Ethics say what is justified (no initiation of force) and implementation is an empirical design task. The clear answer is that defensive coercion is only justified as restoration or prevention of aggression. Accordingly, institutions that operate within that restriction include contracts, covenant, audit, insurance, distributed ownership, pre-authorized pacts, you name it.
It certainly is not the case, and I'm certainly not pretending otherwise, that defense is free or trivial. However, that fact does not justify monopolistic and coercive funding and jurisdiction. That is and remains forbidden under libertarian ethics and there is no situation that permits overriding that. Accordingly, just make warlording expensive, detectable, and reversible, by designing such voluntary defensive institutions
 
I see. So market forces would need some over ride to keep people maintaining these things.

This is an age old question. When there is no war, soldiers need to be provided for. This is what happened over all the time.

A full time soldier needs constant training. There needs to be something that keeps them funded, other than the free market.

If we allow them to atrophy, the enemy of Utopialand can forcefully conscript and invade before the defence contractors can ramp up shell making.

What would keep the military companies funded during a peacetime? The only two solutions I can think of is either a religion that encourages it, or deploying them in mock battles against each other as a sort of sport.

Kind of like gladiators or football teams, fighting each other in pre-specified areas with paintballs or something.
 
What would keep the military companies funded during a peacetime?
Anything goes as long as it's not aggressive. The most likely candidates are things like long-term subscriptions (related to defense covenants), insurance premiums that require readiness, investment returns on dual-use commercial activity (space launches, logistics, private shipping, disaster relief), pre-funded communal defense bonds that pay retention... A likely business model will be buyers signing multi-year contracts for readiness guarantees, with insurers underwriting them and punishing shirking by refusing coverage. The point is that markets can and do fund standing capabilities when the service is contract-based and liability-priced.
A full time soldier needs constant training. There needs to be something that keeps them funded, other than the free market.
What do you mean, other than the free market? Why not treat trained personnel as a professional service with recurring revenue? Perhaps mentally stuck in the status quo of state payrolls?
Think of retainer contracts for standing rapid-response teams. Think of dual employment, with contractors also selling peacetime services (security, search and rescue, infrastructure protection, VIP transport) in addition to wartime readiness. Could even go analogous to historical private fire brigades, with pensions and investment vehicles funded by subscribers. All of these things preserve constant training without taxation. You don't need taxation for long-term contracts and predictable cash flows.
If we allow them to atrophy, the enemy of Utopialand can forcefully conscript and invade before the defence contractors can ramp up shell making.
Well, just reduce the risk with prepositioning and distributed ownership. Have stockpiles and platforms held in community trusts under multi-sig control. That way, contractors can maintain them under bonded custody with trigger clauses to release materiel to covenant signatories as a response to a verified attack. And don't forget dual-use civilian assets (merchant ships, civilian drones, etc.) that can be rapidly militarized, that too shortens mobilization time.
The only two solutions I can think of is either a religion that encourages it, or deploying them in mock battles against each other as a sort of sport.
Nah, gladiatorial or ritualized warfare is kinda degrading, not to mention strategically inefficient. I reckon you can get far better results with good institutional design. Like the things I mentioned. Subscribers pay for readiness, insurers enforce performance, defense firms sell profitable peacetime services (logistics, satellites, cybersecurity) to fund readiness. Add reserve systems, like periodical citizen training (paid drills) like modern reservists, funded by community covenants and insurance credits for compliance. Plus, tradable bonds to finance materiel upkeep, with bond value collapsing on malfeasance as a market penalty for (potential) warlording.
On an operational level, I think it makes sense to think of defense in layers or tiers. With small professional contracted rapid-response teams on retainer at the lowest level, then funded reserves and prepositioned materiel owned by communal trusts above that, and surge contractors with international pooling agreements to do heavy lifting.
Either way, with that kind of stuff in place, any contractor who is tempted to become a warlord will find drastically high costs and pitifully low benefits. That is, multi-stakeholder ownership, legal encumbrances, reputational markets, insurer penalties, all those things make seizing power a financial suicide.
 
Hm, fire brigades and troops are two very different things.

Troops need constant, expensive training. The MIC is fleecing it. So you would need to make some very harsh anti-trust laws where they can't go back and lawyer their way out of contracts.

This is why procurement in the US is so expensive. But in the end, you'll be szill sitting on a lot of material goods and people who need to train in it, wear it down.

This is why you can't have your soldiers be firemen or security guards. The skillset of a tank crew is radically different to anything a civilian does.

Their gear also needs to be maintained. The personnel here aren't an issue that much, you can use car and plane crews, but you would have to expend ammunition just for training.

For example, a fighter pilot needs at least a year's training if he gets a new aircraft. That means flying that aircraft, wear and tear, all that. We saw this with the F16 and the Ukraine's pilots. These were already fighter pilots with years of training. The 1 year was what it ws said they needed to get used to the new plane.

These costs would need a lot of willing buyers for contracts.

Remember that pilots, rare earth minerals, factories don't instantly spring up when you throw money at it.

Now, I am not even saying that lolberts can't exists, but they would need to exist on Earth with everyone else's goodwill resting on them.

It would also work better the smaller the society is, there is only so many contracts a person can keep track of.

So a couple of lolbert crypto bros could theoretically run a small island they bought, with a population of a few thousand.

If they specialised in some luxury goods like art, video games, toys, they could maybe make themselves not a conquest target.

Monaco is kind of like that, they are a rich person's retreat, so everyone leaves them alone.

This also applies to democracy. The smaller it is, the more efficient it becomes.
Democracy works best if there is a single city or small county where your decisions are all about local matters.

A small village of a few thousand people can elect a mayor and it will work well.

This works less the bigger and more complex a society gets.
 
A "navy" can exist as a voluntary defense firm/league. That is, funded by consensual means, contracts setting mission scope, possible competition from peers, and full exit rights. That by itself is not a state, it would only become a state the moment it claims compulsory jurisdiction, territorial monopoly, or taxation and forbids rivals, at which point it's an aggressor and may be dealt with as such. The line is simple in that monopoly and coercive funding are unethical.
I would assume a "navy" would be at-hire contract workers to the highest bidder or whoever they would openly support. With that, if say you hire a navy on retainer, then by proxy, you are a "state" through aggression of monopolizing force against lesser actors or aggressors.
 
Getting a bit TLDR so dumbrate me if not applicable, but what’s the point?
There is no point or meaning in clarifying overarching reality, only the execution of an act.
If I can perceive that I have an axe, and I perceive that my swing shattered a skull in either a good or a bad way, that is enough.
The only thing that I care to clarify is the value of the act and anything beyond that is further away from the axe and the skull.
 
Getting a bit TLDR so dumbrate me if not applicable, but what’s the point?
There is no point or meaning in clarifying overarching reality, only the execution of an act.
Lolberts know their ideology doesn't work in reality, so they have to confine the argument to such an extent that you have to argue against tautologies.
"Please confine your argument to the normative idea of this thread."
Which is "under perfect conditions and looking at it from the most abstract metaphysical point of view, anarcho capitalism is free of contradictions and thus works".
It's like the physics joke where everything works perfectly when it's a sphere in a vacuum.
In reality, it can't work and thinking about how things should be in a perfect world is pointless, but daydreaming and wanking over pretentious ideas is all they have.
 
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