Undertale / Deltarune / Toby Fox Discussion

[AMHOLIO]

Media that sets up a specific set of expectations and then defies it in a very satisfying way a couple hours in is a goddamned rarity.

I honestly hope it ends satisfyingly: that's the hard part. There's a lot of subverting your expectations media that subvert things for no real payoff, or set up mystery boxes that never pay off. The entire mascot horror game genre is the worst case scenario of this. Every game wants/wanted video game youtube channels to give them their 15 minutes of free advertising with deep lore and theory videos to get some of that FNAF money. Fortunately, Deltarune didn't spawn from that genre either.

If I ever got into Deltarune, I'd do it after it concluded: I've been burned by shitty sequential media before. I have confidence that it will be better than the shitshow of The Amazing Digital Letdown, at least. Some people love discussing what is going to happen next or predicting things with others, and it's nice to see a game actually scratch that itch. I just don't care for that type of media myself.

 

[Symbol of the Chud]

Some more random evidence of how fucking little Susie knows about Noelle can be found in Chapter 5 with the ShikaCola (Deer Cola)

A natural drink infused with nutmeg and deer hair. Heals all party members. +80HPall

Susie says:

Noelle... should try this. [When using it on Susie]

Noelle however fucking hates it.

WHY WOULD I LIKE THIS??? IT HAS SOMEONE'S HAIR IN IT??? [When using it on Noelle; unused]

and it only heals her for +5hp.
Just yet more evidence of how shallow the relationship between the two of them actually is, even in Chapter 5, when they've had their gay little love scene. Toby better be fucking going somewhere with this.
Also Ralsei makes a fucking direct reference to Friendliness Pellets if you give him the Flavigne.

Mmm, friendly pellets. [When using it on Ralsei]

Fucking lying little goat faggot. How much does he really know?

 

[Bob Barbas]

Tbh the "Susie is actually an evil timeline manipulator" theory is lowkey reminding me of the old "Ralsei is actually an evil liar" theory from back in the day.
Maybe it's because I'm just jaded as fuck from all of the recent media that ended the same way but I have a suspicious feeling the story is going to turn out to be a lot more simplistic than anything we're saying.

I want to believe but I honestly think Chapter 5 being nothing but vagueposting still after what happened in chapter 4 has killed my hopes for this plot being any deeper.
I just know either the plot is going to be way more retarded and simplistic than anything anyone is thinking or worse nothing will be explained at all and then the retards will hail it as being DEEP and SUBVERSIVE (It isn't its basically expected nowadays but the retard seals will clap anyway after seeing it for the 500th time.) and that I just didn't get it because I didn't read between the lines man!

 

[Coolio55]

this is slightly off topic but Andrew hussie has apparently never played deltarune or undertale and does not know much about it:
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>UNDERTALE is Problem Sleuth

>DELTARUNE is Homestuck

 

[Gay Sex Enjoyer]

Tbh the "Susie is actually an evil timeline manipulator" theory is lowkey reminding me of the old "Ralsei is actually an evil liar" theory from back in the day.

Honestly with how much Ralsei is outright confirmed to be holding back in terms of how much he knows and how powerful he is, on top of him apparently knowing full well that Kris is the one working with the knight and opening the fountains AND that the player is a seperate entity that Kris and him are hiding things from, the "Ralsei is secretly evil" theories aren't even that out there any more.

Ralsei isn't outwardly malicious except towards Flowery, which is mostly a gag, but he's clearly insanely shady and constantly lies his ass off both directly and by omission regardless. Sure, he probably doesn't want to cause the roaring and kill everyone, but at the same time why would he actively hide shit from the player, the one who wants to fulfill the prophecy and save both worlds, and keep pumping up/conspiring with Kris the double agent?

 

[ruckingfetard]

this is slightly off topic but Andrew hussie has apparently never played deltarune or undertale

And yet he used an undertale reference in the ending animation to his already dead webcomic homestuck? He's such a hack.

 

[Cryogonal2]

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normalnpc = robert
kris = lando
gaster = gin rummy

 

[my penis is on fire]

The entire mascot horror game genre is the worst case scenario of this. Every game wants/wanted video game youtube channels to give them their 15 minutes of free advertising with deep lore and theory videos to get some of that FNAF money.

Bendy and the Ink Machine was arguably the worst violator of this. While it was categorically "theorybait" from the beginning, before the final chapter there was at least a sense that the story was going somewhere and all the lore breadcrumbs would pay off in the end. Come Chapter 5, not only was the ending unsatisfying, not only was absolutely nothing explained, but at the last second it went "Oh yeah the whole game is a giant time loop btw." It was a total rugpull, basically just outsourcing the writing to MatPat. Later on they tried to write an official tie-in book to unfuck the ending, but as far as I know that wasn't enough to move the needle.
Though MatPat isn't a central part of Deltarune's business model, I think BATIM represents the worst-case scenario for the game's ending. Both games were released in spaced-out chapters meaning the overall plot heavily changed over the years, and Deltarune's flirtations with 4th Wall and time travel elements, which need to be handled like Plutonium-239 in order to not instantly ruin a story, were substandard in the most recent chapter.

 

[Newcomer 42]

What about Bendy 2 that aped Bioshock?
Rals is either Flowey or Asriel or somehow both, the chances keep increasing. In before he goes evil once again.

 

[Smokin' Niggardly Fags]

pretty sure that's just Temmie's favoured OC SI character she uses from Dwellers of the Mountain Forest, Seam also has a doll of her in his shop.
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Oh. Whenever I was looking at it, I felt as if I were looking at a Reisen Fumo.

 

[Coolio55]

Bendy and the Ink Machine was arguably the worst violator of this. While it was categorically "theorybait" from the beginning, before the final chapter there was at least a sense that the story was going somewhere and all the lore breadcrumbs would pay off in the end. Come Chapter 5, not only was the ending unsatisfying, not only was absolutely nothing explained, but at the last second it went "Oh yeah the whole game is a giant time loop btw." It was a total rugpull, basically just outsourcing the writing to MatPat. Later on they tried to write an official tie-in book to unfuck the ending, but as far as I know that wasn't enough to move the needle.
Though MatPat isn't a central part of Deltarune's business model, I think BATIM represents the worst-case scenario for the game's ending. Both games were released in spaced-out chapters meaning the overall plot heavily changed over the years, and Deltarune's flirtations with 4th Wall and time travel elements, which need to be handled like Plutonium-239 in order to not instantly ruin a story, were substandard in the most recent chapter.

It also doesn't help that Cuphead came out and basically did everything unique about Bendy way better.

 

[Symbol of the Chud]

What about Bendy 2 that aped Bioshock?
Rals is either Flowey or Asriel or somehow both, the chances keep increasing. In before he goes evil once again.

It feels like it'd be a massive copout if Ralsei ends up being the same "Asriel dust on a flower" type existence as Flowey, but on the flipside, it'd be interesting if he was actually UT Flowey. UT Flowey/Asriel always had a pretty fucking tragic fate when you think about it. Despite saving all of Monsterkind and breaking the barrier, he's going to be left alone in the Underground forever, stripped of his emotions. A prince alone in the dark. (If Deltarune has something to do with UT Gaster's shit, then Flowey, being the only living thing in the underground after True Pacifist, might've eventually stumbled across whatever experiment or whatever the fuck.

Ralsei has been showing more and more "Flowey/UT Asriel" traits as of recent, too. His revelation that he has Fire Magic (which is something that UT Asriel would have). His "Idiot" aimed at Flowery. The whole "fake stats" thing. "Friendly Pellets". His ability to just show up in whatever Dark World he needs to somehow. Flowey theory would also be a reason behind why he 'can't' show up in the Light World. Because he doesn't want to lose the emotions he gets by being in a Dark World.

Problem with Ralsei is that Toby has left what he actually is undisclosed for so long that it would need to be a crazy twist like that that recontextualises the story to justify keeping it a secret for so long. If it's just "oh he's your horn headband lol" it'll be a copout.

 

[John Hazbin]

And yet he used an undertale reference in the ending animation to his already dead webcomic homestuck? He's such a hack.

he did not by the end of the comic most the shit in the webcomic was not done by him guest animators mostly did the work for example the shrek cameo was a complete insert by a guest artist etc.

 

[Smokin' Niggardly Fags]

The reveal for chapter 6 will be that the Holiday family, despite being reindeers, having a Christmas theme in their home and Christmas related names, they actually hate Christmas due to being sick of it. Gasp!

I knew that something was up!

 

[Gay Sex Enjoyer]

 

[Fabrico]

The Witness is the last game I can think of that really rugpulled me like that.

The Witness is one of the most beautiful games I've ever played, but damn was it frustrating at times.

 

[Red flag]

Theoretically, Dess could be human. I don't think there's any definitive proof yet she was a monster, and there's some weak evidence to suggest the red soul was Dess's and Kris lost his original soul somehow.

I personally really like this theory. Furthermore, if Dess is a human, she will almost certainly look like Frisk and the alleged antlers we see in the silhouette are just another headband to help a human child cope with being fostered by deer monsters, same way Kris has the horned one.

Really drives the point home why Carol has a bunch of red heart pillows in the house.

"You are always welcome here." takes on a more coherent meaning.

"Don't forget I'm with you in the dark" lyrics being sung by Dess adds to it as well.

 

[147573952589676412927]

 

[Gay Sex Enjoyer]

Noelle is stated to have had a fear of Humans hiding under her bed, which Kris took advantage of to scare the shit out of her.

If Dess was human then that wouldn't really make sense, nor would Dess's shoes in her room being fitted for hooves.

 

[Symbol of the Chud]

Noelle is stated to have had a fear of Humans hiding under her bed, which Kris took advantage of to scare the shit out of her.

If Dess was human then that wouldn't really make sense, nor would Dess's shoes in her room being fitted for hooves.

Considering that it seems to be something of a theme that Kris' little shithead behaviour is getting recontextualised the moment Noelle thinks about it again for more than 30 seconds, I wonder if he did that so that she'd get over the fear. (And seeing as she did used to have said fear, it may have actually worked, too)
In Chapter 2, Noelle gets over her fear of mice pretty quickly when she realises how harmless they actually are.
Also, telling your human friend you have a fear of humans hiding under your bed kinda feels extremely hilariously fucking racist when you think about it.
Chudette Noelle strikes again.