Undertale / Deltarune / Toby Fox Discussion

[SIMON THE PIEMAN]

I think Toby Fox is just doing the bit with having one of the characters live through time loops and then seemingly acting like a prophet. I don't have any exact proof because the story is vagueposted to hell but my money would be on Ralsei. He seems to know about things he has no real reason to know, like the names of Kris and Susie before they even introduced themselves, how the dark fountains work, what happens at "the end of the world", the titans, the roaring and so on. There's also a line in chapter 5 where he says he knows what happens when he "breaks the rules" like Flowery did. When exactly did he break the rules?
This would also make him the prime candidate to be the voice on the phone in chapter 4, as he's giving Kris precise instructions on what to do with the guitar, as if he knew that such a thing is supposed to take place. I don't think it makes sense for Carol to be the caller as she lives in the house, so why would she need Kris to handle the guitar? She could simply remove the code at any time, so it has to be someone who can't enter the house through normal means. It's only when Susie obtains the guitar that Kris contacts her, since she's the one who can take the guitar from Susie without making it suspicious.

 

[AI generated waifu]

Vagueposting for audience engagement is not how you are supposed to write stories.

I am honestly so tired of indie projects drip feeding lore for theory bait engagement these days. It's annoying and usually always leads to a disappointment of a conclusion when fans' expectations are hyped up beyond what the writers can usually deliver.

The chapter by chapter release format we now see in Mascot Horror games like Bendy, Poppy Playtime, Banban, Indigo Park, etc all milk this type of writing now, and Deltarune is just following the trend even if we're coping about Toby being better than that. Couldn't we learn from the likes of Steven Moffat and Scott Cawthon that this doesn't work long term?

 

[You Can't Un'Ape The Doe]

What were the heroes doing while Flowery was fighting the knight? Playing fucking spectator mode?!

A lot of Chapter 5's issues can be handwaved away with a recontextualisation but that and the handling of Kris+Asgore is pretty inexcusably bad and can't be fixed unless Toby actually updates/changes Chapter 5...Which he can actually do, but he probably won't

This would also make him the prime candidate to be the voice on the phone in chapter 4, as he's giving Kris precise instructions on what to do with the guitar, as if he knew that such a thing is supposed to take place.

That would explain all the times he gets Kris to close his eyes so he can talk to Kris without the player, but would not explained
-Why he is surprised at the knight/titan
-Why he seemingly doesnt know much about Kris/Susie PERSONALLY outside of prophecy shit
_Why he develops as a character if he's already been through these things
-Why Kris would go along with it

 

[ita]

Reminder.
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Oh for Christ’s sake, I don’t know if I’ve ever even noticed that before. WHAT DOES IT MEAN. FUCK YOU RADIATION

 

[AI generated waifu]

Oh for Christ’s sake, I don’t know if I’ve ever even noticed that before. WHAT DOES IT MEAN. FUCK YOU RADIATION

Susie and Noelle's spare icons are not pointed and don't look like arrows:

Kris and Ralsei's spare icons are pointed and do look like arrows:

 

[SIMON THE PIEMAN]

That would explain all the times he gets Kris to close his eyes so he can talk to Kris without the player, but would not explained
-Why he is surprised at the knight/titan
-Why he seemingly doesnt know much about Kris/Susie PERSONALLY outside of prophecy shit
_Why he develops as a character if he's already been through these things
-Why Kris would go along with it

The first three can be explained by an attempt to manipulate someone, with the primary target being you (the soul) and the secondary target being everyone else. It's not like Ralsei is not a manipulator since there's an entire scene in chapter 4 where Susie freak out about Ralsei withholding the details from the gang for so long. If Kris and Ralsei are working together behind the scenes then it makes perfect sense to deceive the soul.
In fact the only time the soul is doing something out of the ordinary (in the weird route) Ralsei seems to be absent save from the very beginning when in happens in chapter 2. The shelter also stops mattering in the weird route, so I'd also connect it to Ralsei somehow.

 

[You Can't Un'Ape The Doe]

The first three can be explained by an attempt to manipulate someone, with the primary target being you (the soul) and the secondary target being everyone else. It's not like Ralsei is not a manipulator since there's an entire scene in chapter 4 where Susie freak out about Ralsei withholding the details from the gang for so long. If Kris and Ralsei are working together behind the scenes then it makes perfect sense to deceive the soul.
In fact the only time the soul is doing something out of the ordinary (in the weird route) Ralsei seems to be absent save from the very beginning when in happens in chapter 2. The shelter also stops mattering in the weird route, so I'd also connect it to Ralsei somehow.

right but that relies on Toby fox making the uwu-faggot boy into a master manipulator. It would also effectively destroy his entire character and mean Toby would have to build his new persona in the remaining ~2 chapters.
I just don't buy that happening tbh

 

[Max Free]

We won't know for sure until something concrete about what he is is confirmed. Really, we just keep getting confirmation for what he isn't.
We know he's not secretly being carried by Kris, we know that whatever he is can't really be carried around (Otherwise he could've been carried around to 'see' the festival.

What about him being a lightner ghost? Pink showed us they can end up in darkner worlds and maintain shading and color for their face portraits. Would solve everything else, too.

 

[Aecheur]

The gender cult freaks me out

 

[You Can't Un'Ape The Doe]

What about him being a lightner ghost? Pink showed us they can end up in darkner worlds and maintain shading and color for their face portraits. Would solve everything else, too.

How is he a prince of the dark then, and whats stopping him from just joining the festival

 

[Eternal Struggler]

I still think that Toberticus made Kris be addressed as "they" to:

- Keep the Undertale tradition; Have the player be able to self-insert as Kris regardless of gender (despite Kris obviously being male in this case)
- Literal reference to Kris being two niggas (Kris and he who controls him), dehumanizes the real Kris

Toby never confirms or denies reasons for everybody addressing Kris as "they", so I choose to believe that Kris is just a teenage boy, who we see initially as something like a vessel, like how Frisk is in Undertale. But, he slowly shows that he's his own person, done by all the quirky things he does outside of our control, the way he chooses to approach decisions we make (doing them half-assedly, literally refusing to say something).

Hopefully (), we'll have a moment where we can't control/reach him, and he's in a situation where he has to reveal or say something important to Susie or Noelle, and he'll evidently be a real human bean with a personality. Example: "Sorry Susie but all the dark fountains have to go... there's nothing we can do. By the way I am extremely fucking straight."

If he keeps being addressed as "they" with no payoff, I am killing myself.

 

[Symbol of the Chud]

Buzz Buzz's speech about Giygas from the start of Earthbound if Toby Fox wrote it:

'A bee I am
'or possibly not...
'I'm from some years in the future.
'And,
'in some time, all is pretty messed up...
'that entity, who came on that day,
'send some, maybe all, to the horror of darkness that lasts an indeterminate amount of time...
'.....
'However, you must listen!
'Wherever I am from,
'there is a well-known prophecy that has been handed down from who knows how long ago.
'It says "When the chosen boy/girl/them reaches some point, he will find something.
'The passing of time will shatter that rock
'and will reveal that path."
'You see, it is my opinion that you are that boy/girl/them, Ness.
'This I probably believe...
'.....
'That entity's monstrous plans have probably been set in motion somewhere on this planet...
'If you start to confront the enemy immediately, or maybe have random pointless time wasting adventures
'you may or may not have time to counter the unknowable intentions of that entity.
'Three things are probably of the utmost importance: wisdom, determination, and friendship.
'...The prophecy from however long ago tells of three boy/girl/thems and a girl
'who defeat that entity.
'...I will die so I don't get to tell you more later.
'Go now! And do not make theories about the future.
'You probably have much work to do, Ness.

How is he a prince of the dark then, and whats stopping him from just joining the festival

Misconception, it doesn't need to be a Prince of the Dark, that's Ralsei's version.
The prophecy simply mentions a Prince alone in Deepest Dark.

 

[You Can't Un'Ape The Doe]

Toby never confirms or denies reasons for everybody addressing Kris as "they", so I choose to believe that Kris is just a teenage boy, who we see initially as something like a vessel, like how Frisk is in Undertale.

NO BUT DON'T YOU SEE! TOBY FOX IS SO ADAMANT ABOUT IT AND HE PUT DOWN THOSE FUCKING CHUD NAZI BIGOTS!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ul0wlHgLahU

LOOK SEE SOMEONE SAID "HE" AND THEN TOBY FOX LATER SAID THEY TO CORRECT THEM!!! LOOK YOU SEE I ADDED ASTERIX TO THE CAPTIONS I MADE, THAT MEANS I MUST BE RIGHT!! I'M SO RIGHT I'M GOING TO MUTE THE COMMENTS BECAUSE OF ALL THOSE TRANSPHOBIC BIGOTS!!!

The goyim are retarded, I hate to admit it.

 

[Symbol of the Chud]

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The gender cult freaks me out

Watching the insane gender cult screech that personifications of spam emails and joker playing cards are male or female when they are literally just mundane objects brought to life by what effectively amounts to imagination is extremely funny.
Toby's got these niggas screaming about how household objects are trans or whatever.

 

[Foghotten]

Toby was an idiot for calling Kris a "they": you have an entire sequence creating your own character, only for you to be told to get fucked with this saying you don't get a choice of who you're controlling. Turning Kris into a genderblob makes this entire sequence irrelevant in a roundabout way imo.

Narratively, gendering Kris (who's obviously a guy, btw) would've highlighted the fact that you are controlling him, and not your vessel. It would've also shut the genderspeds up, but alas, we live in a world of Tumblr bullshit.

 

[Max Free]

How is he a prince of the dark then, and whats stopping him from just joining the festival

What kind of prince has no authority over any of their subjects? Nobody knows what that title really means. And the reason he doesn't join the festival is the same he acts so suspicious all the time: 'Cause he has something to hide. Can't show them kids you're the ghost of Dess puppeteering Asraels rotting corpse or whatever.

Toby was an idiot for calling Kris a "they": you have an entire sequence creating your own character, only for you to be told to get fucked with this saying you don't get a choice of who you're controlling. Turning Kris into a genderblob makes this entire sequence irrelevant in a roundabout way imo.

One of the big reveals at the end is going to be that everyone refered to Kris as 'they' because they refered to Kris AND the soul at the same time. After their subsequent separation in the finale, everyone is naturally calling him a "he", and people going to fucking lose their mind.
It would fit Toby, as this kind of play on words with multiple meanings is exactly what he does constantly.

 

[Symbol of the Chud]

Oh hey look, more proof that the Dark Worlds as we see them are the product of the imagination of Kris, Noelle, Dess and Asriel, from when you look at the computer in Kris' room with Susie with you.

* HAHAHA!!! WHAT IS THIS COMPUTER WALLPAPER???
* What AGE did you and your brother draw this at!?
* Glad we didn't go to THIS Cyber World! Haha, what the hell?
* Hey, and in the corner, that's that cat thing from Castle Town!
* You know, the shop thing! The... cat... the stitch thing! Whatever.

Why is Seam on Kris' computer wallpaper?

 

[You Can't Un'Ape The Doe]

Toby was an idiot for calling Kris a "they": you have an entire sequence creating your own character, only for you to be told to get fucked with this saying you don't get a choice of who you're controlling. Turning Kris into a genderblob makes this entire sequence irrelevant in a roundabout way imo.

Narratively, gendering Kris (who's obviously a guy, btw) would've highlighted the fact that you are controlling him, and not your vessel. It would've also shut the genderspeds up, but alas, we live in a world of Tumblr bullshit.

Yeah I 100% agree. Kris is meant to be a distinct character, so the "they" stuff is either
-Toby just wanting to keep it from Undertale and not make it immediately obvious that Kris is meant to be separate from the player
-Toby wanting to do it because technically Kris is "two" people (even though no one else would know that)
-Toby wanting it to be ambiguous which makes no sense because Kris is his own person
-Or Toby genuinely believing "Non-Binary" is a thing

and the reason he doesn't join the festival is the same he acts so suspicious all the time:

Yeah I guess it could be the case

Misconception, it doesn't need to be a Prince of the Dark, that's Ralsei's version.
The prophecy simply mentions a Prince alone in Deepest Dark.

Fair point. Nonetheless, doesn't it seem fair to say that the original Prophecy (Kris, Vessel, Noelle, Susie) wouldn't have included Ralsei? As one of the three heroes, I mean.

Also when do you reckon you'll do your big schizopost on the prophecy-heroes-being-changed and susie-evil thing

 

[Slumbie]

Why is Seam on Kris' computer wallpaper?

Because Dess made Seam and gave it to Asriel.

 

[ducktales4gameboy]

The worst thing about the Kris gender debate (why is it even a debate) is that if it's ever confirmed in canon all the genderspecials will seamlessly and instantly jump over to arguing if he's trans or not.

Now there is a non-homosexual explanation for this, but you'd be pressed to find one, unless he is that much of a troll and was mocking homosexuals here.

The thing on his shirt is the green worm thing from the homestuck protag's shirt except with the colors inverted. It looks like genderbend cosplay, which can be really really gay in two different ways instead of just homosexual.