@Tor Lugosi I think a problem with Batman is the many incarnations that are vastly different, along with the general evolution of the character himself. There have been so many factors that have changed the narratives from Comic’s Codes, to media, to just general anything. I would say the first 40 years of Batman, pre-Returns is basically a different beast from the current. Most of Batman’s popularity nowadays comes from post-Returns content, and even then a good chunk of Batman’s world could be chalked up to being created outside the comics with shit like TAS having such a major influence on future works.
If we are to look at modern Batman, most of the big works that affect his current characterization fall on large comics such as The Dark Knight Returns and The Killing Joke. Batman TAS and The Arkham games also play a large hand as many seem to herald those as peak Batman, the perfected version so to speak. The Nolan Trilogy, and probably soon the Joker film have also played weird hands in shaping the character. Then we have a lot of the side comics and movies, Under The Red Hood (movie) is considered
A classic, and so was Hush for a while.
lol yeah, the 82 years worth of Batman stories are mainly comprised of him crying on his parents graves. Hell, not even *modern* Batman comics focus much on that.
I took this from TAS, here is the direct scene:
For context, Bruce is in love with a woman named Andrea, but believes he will have to give up the cowl to pursue her. This creates conflict as he believes he is not honoring his parents if he is happy.
My point with the post was to highlight this scene as showing Batman is not exactly well. He is a man who thinks that he cannot be happy. I believe this notion that Batman cannot be happy was used recently as a justification for the cop out with him not marrying Catwoman, because she believed a marriage with him would ruin the Bat.
Is this notion stupid, perhaps? It has been used for dumb ass shit, but when the “best piece of Batman media” made it a point, I doubt most writers could get rid of it. My use of it was to show that he is not a happy character or a person you should want to be.
The vast majority of the Joker's stories over his 80 or so years of existence is him coming up with a goofy plan and then Batman punching him in the face. This idea that the Joker and Batman are two-sides of the same coin is a very modern invention.
Is it? I believe this notion has been building since the 80s, which would be about half of Batman’s life span. The Dark Knight Returns has Joker retire until Batman appears again, hinging his antics solely on Batman’s existence. Then The Killing Joke was written to be about Joker trying to show people are one bad day away from him, and attempting to get Batman to “get the joke.” While not definitive, the relationship has been building to be more centered around Bats. Even TAS has Joker speak about how “crime has no punchline” if Batman is not around.
The Dark Knight is really where the notion took off from as we have Joker speaking about how Batman completes him and what-not. This was then followed up in the Arkham games with Asylum being a push to get Batman to go insane, then City straight up comparing the two to the Biblical Cain and Abel. That said, these works are 10 years or older at this point, not exactly modern, and I do feel they are an evolution of works made decades prior when Batman was getting to be more serious and somewhat psychological.
Paul Dini very obviously thinks Batman is a
morally good person, as showcased by his episodes in the DCAU.
Batman is a good person, but there has been an idea that he is not completely right for the longest time. I get your post with the Holiday special, but Dini has written tons of other material or been a part of the project. One of his stories would be Hush, which has Batman say the opposite, and Arkham City makes it very clear that Dini takes pride in the Hush story with his push for Hush to be big in a 3rd game.
He was also a large hand in the Arkham series, which has a running theme of Batman being close to his villains, ending with a line drawn to make the distinction. Asylum is Joker wanting nothing more than for Batman to give in to Arkham’s insanity. City has Hugo Strange tell the player they belong in the hell hole, as well as furthering the Joker-Batman thing with the blood-buddies story.
The Trial, which is a famous TAS episode was one of the first to tackle the Batman is not so different story, throwing him in Arkham and having the villains blame him for their creation. Of course the verdict is they are all crazy even without Bats, but again, a good theme in some of Dini’s bigger works is that of questioning Batman and whether or not he is a hero, or sane? The end is always Batman not giving in due to his perseverance and determination, but that insanity angle really adds a deeper conflict to a good chunk of narratives.
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