Is this the forum where we debate the mass effect series?

[LORD IMPERATOR]

I think you have fundamentally misunderstood the end of the series. Contrary to YT rage bait, the AI ending is coherent and is actually quite easy to understand.

No it isn't. You misunderstood the entire series as a whole. The AI ending makes no sense, especially when the Reapers firmly plant their flags on Team Synthetic, to the point where in their first conversation with you, they outright insult the idea of organic life as an accident, an anomaly, and they, the machines, are the perfect life forms. Those guys don't care about stopping organics from making synthetics that would kill them; those guys outright hate organics and see them at best as pawns, or bugs to be squashed.

As for the protheans, you have read so much out of your own ass into the game that is way more sparse even with Javik’s commentary.

False. I went with what we know from Javik and the lore of the Protheans. You, on the other hand, take the Catalyst at face value even though from the POV of its creator, it became the very same thing it was supposed to fight.

As for reaper malice, so what?

Goes to show that you have no sense of consistency or logic whatsoever. The Mass Effect series consistently portrayed the Reapers as inhumane, evil monstrosities who need to die, and they do this by showing Reapers and their minions doing unspeakably horrible things to organics-the kind of shit that would make Unit 731 and Josef Mengele look tame by comparison. That has nothing to do with stopping organics from making synthetics; all it does is show how much Reapers hate the very notion of organic life, and at most, barely tolerate them due to reproductive purposes.

Saren and the illusive man both smack talk Shepherd and they both turn out to be more sympathetic and you can even convince them to commit suicide rather than die fighting you.

That has nothing to do with Reaper malice. Saren and the Illusive Man try to redirect the Reapers towards a noble purpose; the Reapers themselves on the other hand, have no sense of greater good, and openly enjoy eradicating or purging the filthy meatbags. They're nothing but narcissists who see themselves as perfect, and everything else exists to feed their designs, which has nothing to do with any altruistic goal.

I think you are projecting your own wishes/frustrations onto the material, rather than evaluating the material as it is actually presented. Which is fine, ME3’s ending was controversial, but as someone who only played the series years later(when all the dust had settled), it’s really not the nightmare of ruin you make it out to be.

99 percent of the material as is presented blows your logic out of the water. That is why the controversy existed in the first place, because the ending makes no sense. All you do is say that it does, when in reality, it doesn't.

Nothing the Reapers do is meant to stop organics from creating synthetics that would destroy them. The Protheans do a better job of that by rocking up to your crib, forcing you to become AI-hating Protheans, and if you say no, they kill you. Meanwhile, it doesn't matter to the Reapers whether or not you love or hate AI, they just brutally and sadistically slaughter your organic ass and have a fun time with it.

The fact that you wouldn't reply to me directly goes to show that you have no confidence in your own arguments.

 

[Ishtar]

I remember arguing with you about the Yuuzhan Vong and how relentless you were then. Holy Shit, you don't quit.

No it isn't. You misunderstood the entire series as a whole. The AI ending makes no sense, especially when the Reapers firmly plant their flags on Team Synthetic, to the point where in their first conversation with you, they outright insult the idea of organic life as an accident, an anomaly, and they, the machines, are the perfect life forms.

Biggest problem right there. You take Sovereign's self hype at face value. Shepherd in game literally does not. Sovereign claims the Reapers exist in some higher realm of existence and are eternal, this is obviously false. Shepherd says its false, its shown as false at the end of ME1 when Sovereign is destroyed. The Reapers are not on "team synthetic" saren outright says Sovereign doesn't care about the geth's worship of it. The Geth are just pliable tools.

False. I went with what we know from Javik and the lore of the Protheans. You, on the other hand, take the Catalyst at face value even though from the POV of its creator, it became the very same thing it was supposed to fight.

I could go through every bit of Javik's recorded in game dialogue, and I can assure you you will not find "we banned AI' anywhere. I take the Catalyst at face value because...the game actually wants you too. When it does not in fact for Javik.

Goes to show that you have no sense of consistency or logic whatsoever. The Mass Effect series consistently portrayed the Reapers as inhumane, evil monstrosities who need to die, and they do this by showing Reapers and their minions doing unspeakably horrible things to organics. That has nothing to do with stopping organics from making synthetics; all it does is show how much Reapers hate the very notion of organic life, and at most, barely tolerate them due to reproductive purposes.

The Reapers engage in self hype and attempt to overawe and intimidate. You know who else does this? In the series? Jedore, the screaming crime boss you fight in ME2((the one where you pick up Grunt). Its bluster and is never taken as "totally 100% true" by the narrative itself. Even Reaper indoctrination is explained outright as a neurological and memetic process, not something magical.

That has nothing to do with Reaper malice. Saren and the Illusive Man try to redirect the Reapers towards a noble purpose; the Reapers themselves on the other hand, have no sense of greater good, and openly enjoy eradicating or purging the filthy meatbags.

Again you are projecting your own wishes and expectations, rather than engaging with the material. The Reapers are the products of a harvest borne of a need to solve a perennial problem. They aren't Skynet, they exist quite literally to prevent Skynet.

Nothing the Reapers do is meant to stop organics from creating synthetics that would destroy them. The Protheans do a better job of that by rocking up to your crib, forcing you to become AI-hating Protheans, and if you say no, they kill you. Meanwhile, it doesn't matter to the Reapers whether or not you love or hate AI, they just brutally and sadistically slaughter your organic ass and have a fun time with it.

Lol yes they do, they harvest advanced civilizations that either have or are on the verge of creating AI that could threaten all life. The Protheans' without the harvest would be destroyed as the Leviathans' slave races were.

The fact that you wouldn't reply to me directly goes to show that you have no confidence in your own arguments.

I have replied directly, multiple times.

 

[Ibanez RG 350EX]

the first game, an RPG game made for people who enjoy reading and having good characters and autistically managing their inventory and equipment

Emphasis on "autistically" because holy fuck was inventory management in that game a needless chore.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

Biggest problem right there. You take Sovereign's self hype at face value. Shepherd in game literally does not. Sovereign claims the Reapers exist in some higher realm of existence and are eternal, this is obviously false. Shepherd says its false, its shown as false at the end of ME1 when Sovereign is destroyed. The Reapers are not on "team synthetic" saren outright says Sovereign doesn't care about the geth's worship of it. The Geth are just pliable tools.

Nothing Sovereign says is proven wrong when it comes to how the Reapers view organics. In ME2 and ME3, the Reapers act in a way similar to how Sovereign would act, using patsies like the Collectors and experimenting upon organics in horrifying ways. Also, they side with the Geth in ME3 during the Geth-Quarian War, so no, they are on team synthetic.

The main reason Sovereign feels insulted is because he's narcissistic; the Geth are way below his pay grade. But he does insult the very concept of organic life as an accident, an anomaly, and posits that he, the machine, is perfect. So that's obvious proof that the Reapers' opinions land them on Team Synthetic, just like their actions in both ME1 and ME3 do.

I could go through every bit of Javik's recorded in game dialogue, and I can assure you you will not find "we banned AI' anywhere. I take the Catalyst at face value because...the game actually wants you too. When it does not in fact for Javik.

Javik's general attitude towards AI is proof enough; and his ''zero-tolerance'' attitude was something born from the Protheans' disgust towards the Zha'Til and the fact that they waged war against machine life in the Metacon War. Given that they ruled the galaxy before the Reapers showed up, it's safe to say they were just cleaning up before the Reapers showed up.

Also, the Catalyst pretty much contradicts 99 percent of the third game and the first two games by attaching an altruistic motive to sadistic bastards who never even hinted at having one.

The Reapers engage in self hype and attempt to overawe and intimidate. You know who else does this? In the series? Jedore, the screaming crime boss you fight in ME2((the one where you pick up Grunt). Its bluster and is never taken as "totally 100% true" by the narrative itself. Even Reaper indoctrination is explained outright as a neurological and memetic process, not something magical.

Which again, goes to show that they do not follow some AI's orders on preventing AI takeover. They're just narcissistic pricks. They do not care if organics make synthetics that kill them. They, like Jedore and many other scumbags in the Mass Effect universe, are narcissistic, sadistic bastards who enjoy killing things. In this case, organics, since the Reapers see organics as scum and at best, building blocks for reproduction, at worst, an accident, and an anomaly. The only difference between the Reapers and other ME villains is the scale of their power and the fact that they want to kill all organics. Otherwise, they're as petty as Jedore, Vido Santiago, and Donovan Hock; they're self-absorbed, narcissistic assholes who relish killing people.

Again you are projecting your own wishes and expectations, rather than engaging with the material. The Reapers are the products of a harvest borne of a need to solve a perennial problem. They aren't Skynet, they exist quite literally to prevent Skynet.

False. The Reapers are what happens when you make Skynet more sadistic and narcissistic than it was in the source material, and you make it a galaxy-level threat. Nothing they do prevents something like Skynet; in fact they sided with the Quarian equivalent to Skynet, the Geth. TWICE. And they openly despise organic life and see it as a joke.

Lol yes they do, they harvest advanced civilizations that either have or are on the verge of creating AI that could threaten all life. The Protheans' without the harvest would be destroyed as the Leviathans' slave races were.

The Protheans were not creating any AI at all. Yet the Reapers attempted to harvest them despite the fact that they were trying to destroy AI. Also, if that's the case, the Reapers would've chosen the Quarians over the humans. They did not. The most the humans did was accidentally create an AI that they later killed-then Cerberus revived it as EDI using Reaper tech. Only renegades from the human race were OK with AI; the rest accepted the Council's ban on AI and saw them as nothing but scum.

I have replied directly, multiple times.

Yet you tried to slip one past me. Which tells me everything I need to know. You are capable of replying directly and have done so multiple times, yet you tried to slip this https://kiwifarms.st/threads/is-thi...e-the-mass-effect-series.123155/post-19624190 past me.

And no, don't try to edit it to add my quotes to it. I took pictures.

 

[Ishtar]

Nothing Sovereign says is proven wrong when it comes to how the Reapers view organics. In ME2 and ME3, the Reapers act in a way similar to how Sovereign would act, using patsies like the Collectors and experimenting upon organics in horrifying ways. Also, they side with the Geth in ME3 during the Geth-Quarian War, so no, they are on team synthetic.

The Collectors are reaper proxies and did you forget, are altered protheans. They help the reapers produce more reapers. The Reapers only side with the Geth because the Geth could literally be directly controlled when they were desperate enough to accept it. Have you actually played ME3? They also used indoctrinated Batarian government officials and Cerberus, does that make the Reapers team Cerberus?

avik's general attitude towards AI is proof enough; and his ''zero-tolerance'' attitude was something born from the Protheans' disgust towards the Zha'Til and the fact that they waged war against machine life in the Metacon War. Given that they ruled the galaxy before the Reapers showed up, it's safe to say they were just cleaning up before the Reapers showed up.

It really isn't actually. Javik is a very bitter soldier that is literally the last of his race. He will even admit at one point his opinions and recollections should not be taken as uniform or universal. Also "waging war with AI" does not equate to "banning AI across the board". Which again we have no indication the protheans did and plenty otherwise, given how advanced their VI is.

Which again, goes to show that they do not follow some AI's orders on preventing AI takeover. They're just narcissistic pricks. They do not care if organics make synthetics that kill them. They, like Jedore and many other scumbags in the Mass Effect universe, are narcissistic, sadistic bastards who enjoy killing things. In this case, organics, since the Reapers see organics as scum and at best, building blocks for reproduction, at worst, an accident, and an anomaly. The only difference between the Reapers and other ME villains is the scale of their power and the fact that they want to kill all organics.

Please play the Leviathan DLC again.

False. The Reapers are what happens when you make Skynet more sadistic and narcissistic than it was in the source material, and you make it a galaxy-level threat. Nothing they do prevents something like Skynet; in fact they sided with the Quarian equivalent to Skynet, the Geth. TWICE. And they openly despise organic life and see it as a joke.

The Catalyst literally says otherwise. You are simply rejecting the material now.

The most the humans did was accidentally create an AI that they later killed-then Cerberus revived it as EDI using Reaper tech. Only renegades from the human race were OK with AI; the rest accepted the Council's ban on AI and saw them as nothing but scum.

AI research exists in Citadel space, its just very regulated and illegal without loads of red tape.

Yet you tried to slip one past me. Which tells me everything I need to know. You are capable of replying directly and have done so multiple times, yet you tried to slip this https://kiwifarms.st/threads/is-thi...e-the-mass-effect-series.123155/post-19624190 past me.

Okay? I replied without multi text quotes once. More because I was done at the time with the argument. Claiming duplicity here is bizarre and reaching for the stars.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

The Collectors are reaper proxies and did you forget, are altered protheans. They help the reapers produce more reapers. The Reapers only side with the Geth because the Geth could literally be directly controlled when they were desperate enough to accept it. Have you actually played ME3? They also used indoctrinated Batarian government officials and Cerberus, does that make the Reapers team Cerberus?

Indeed. And none of that is to help stop organics from creating synthetics that would destroy them. It's all using indoctrinated organics or synthetics towards the goal of A) wiping out all organic life and B) making a Reaper out of a chosen organic race. Nothing about the Catalyst's goals is shown here. Only the total disgust Reapers have for organics to the point where they have them all work towards the destruction of all organic life.

Yes, they have Batarian and Cerberus proxies. They also genocided the Batarian homeworld and spent most of ME3 genociding the Earthlings. They even attack the Cerberus outpost at Sanctuary. Meanwhile, the Reapers never attacked the Geth; they only fight the Geth if you turn the Geth against them. Your point is as worthless as it is illogical.

It really isn't actually. Javik is a very bitter soldier that is literally the last of his race. He will even admit at one point his opinions and recollections should not be taken as uniform or universal. Also "waging war with AI" does not equate to "banning AI across the board". Which again we have no indication the protheans did and plenty otherwise, given how advanced their VI is.

It kind of does. The Protheans never made AI, they were horribly disgusted by AI, and they were waging war to destroy AI. Also, the Protheans are far more uniform than the current cycle; it's what made things easy for the Reapers once they figured out Prothean strategies and tactics.

VIs aren't that advanced. Literally, Vigil was at most, a VI, and it wasn't that advanced since it shut down after ME1. Meaning that the Council couldn't ask it any questions.

AIs meanwhile, do not have that problem, as Javik said. We are bound by time, whereas time is an illusion for them.

Please play the Leviathan DLC again.

All the Leviathan DLC says is that the Leviathans made the Catalyst to stop organics from making AIs that rebel against them, and the Catalyst instead betrayed the Leviathans and turned them into Harbinger. Which means that the Catalyst is either broken, or it's a traitor who broke out of its programming while pretending to still be bound by it.

The Catalyst literally says otherwise. You are simply rejecting the material now.

The Catalyst's words contradict the Reapers' words and actions. And I'd sooner believe Sovereign over the Catalyst because his ideology was more consistent with how the Reapers acted towards organics. 99 percent of the third game and 100 percent of the first two games have the Reapers agreeing with Sovereign's views over the Catalyst's, which goes to show that to believe the Catalyst, you have to reject the material from 99 percent of ME3 and 100 percent of ME1 and ME2.

AI research exists in Citadel space, its just very regulated and illegal without loads of red tape.

Done by criminals and black ops groups. Which the Reapers do not give a flying shit about. The only thing they care about is that humanity is suitable for Reaper assimilation, while the rest of the races are not. Which is why they're blowing away all the organic races while working to create a Human-Reaper.

Okay? I replied without multi text quotes once. More because I was done at the time with the argument. Claiming duplicity here is bizarre and reaching for the stars.

Basically, it shows that you didn't want to respond directly so that I wouldn't be alerted. So you can claim to be the victor or make it seem like I walked away.

 

[Ishtar]

Indeed. And none of that is to help stop organics from creating synthetics that would destroy them. It's all using indoctrinated organics or synthetics towards the goal of A) wiping out all organic life and B) making a Reaper out of a chosen organic race. Nothing about the Catalyst's goals is shown here. Only the total disgust Reapers have for organics to the point where they have them all work towards the destruction of all organic life.

We also see the Reaper on Rannoch babbling about order, and how organics cause chaos. The Reapers' in particular Harbinger and Sovereign like to hype themselves up, why they do this is harder to say, given what Legion says about how the reapers are made. But I don't take any of it as some sort of true reflection of their goals.

Yes, they have Batarian and Cerberus proxies. They also genocided the Batarian homeworld and spent most of ME3 genociding the Earthlings. They even attack the Cerberus outpost at Sanctuary. Meanwhile, the Reapers never attacked the Geth; they only fight the Geth if you turn the Geth against them. Your point is as worthless as it is illogical.

Legion says in ME2 the Geth are "outside of their plans", they only align with the Reapers due to the Quarians new anti geth weapon which basically is a sort of flashbang that leaves the geth blind and rudderless and thus helpless. Only then-with the Reapers needing a proxy, do they extend an offer of aid. Legion also says the Geth "prepared for war' upon his return from the Normandy. So the Geth were preparing to fight the reapers, the Quarians, fucked the entire thing up.

It kind of does. The Protheans never made AI, they were horribly disgusted by AI, and they were waging war to destroy AI. Also, the Protheans are far more uniform than the current cycle; it's what made things easy for the Reapers once they figured out Prothean strategies and tactics.

Javik is disgusted by AI. Javik also claims things that are either definitely bullshit, like eating Salarians, trolling Liara or are colored by his own very limited knowledge base.

AIs meanwhile, do not have that problem, as Javik said. We are bound by time, whereas time is an illusion for them.

Javik also states its inevitable organics will be outcompeted, and Synthetics don't have the same existential problems organics do. Really Javik's commentary on AI throughout the game is more in support of the Catalyst than you are stating-he goes off on how AI see the universe in a very different way, and how they don't actually need organics, how organics however different they may be are all products of evolution with all the weaknesses and irrational behavior that comes with that, whereas sapient machines are self correcting and coldly logical in their thinking. This is a problem-it makes conflict between organics and synthetics inevitable and synthetics inevitbaly victorious over sufficiently long timescales.

The Catalyst's words contradict the Reapers' words and actions. And I'd sooner believe Sovereign over the Catalyst because his ideology was more consistent with how the Reapers acted towards organics. 99 percent of the third game and 100 percent of the first two games have the Reapers agreeing with Sovereign's views over the Catalyst's, which goes to show that to believe the Catalyst, you have to reject the material from 99 percent of ME3 and 100 percent of ME1 and ME2.

See above.

All the Leviathan DLC says is that the Leviathans made the Catalyst to stop organics from making AIs that rebel against them, and the Catalyst instead betrayed the Leviathans and turned them into Harbinger. Which means that the Catalyst is either broken, or it's a traitor who broke out of its programming while pretending to still be bound by it.

The Leviathan also says "there was no mistake". It is still fulfilling its purpose "the preservation of life". The Intelligence was given a task-"preserve life and in the process find out how to solve this problem", the Leviathans were simply too arrogant to realize their machine would not see them as an exception. The Catalyst says as much if you play the DLC-basically "I'm doing what they programmed me to do, no hard feelings"

Done by criminals and black ops groups. Which the Reapers do not give a flying shit about. The only thing they care about is that humanity is suitable for Reaper assimilation, while the rest of the races are not. Which is why they're blowing away all the organic races while working to create a Human-Reaper.

Literally on Noveria, you can ask Parasini and she will say a few companies are licensed to do Ai research by the Citadel.

Basically, it shows that you didn't want to respond directly so that I wouldn't be alerted. So you can claim to be the victor or make it seem like I walked away.

Sorry you felt that way, I am replying in depth now, so what you think was never my intention.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

We also see the Reaper on Rannoch babbling about order, and how organics cause chaos. The Reapers' in particular Harbinger and Sovereign like to hype themselves up, why they do this is harder to say, given what Legion says about how the reapers are made. But I don't take any of it as some sort of true reflection of their goals.

Yes, and the Reaper on Rannoch believes that trying to stop the war between organics and synthetics is foolish. Which pokes a Death Star-sized hole in the Catalyst's logic. Why try to figure out the solution to a problem that is unsolvable? Also, him saying that organics=chaos is the same slop Sovereign said, just reworked with different words. ''Organics bad, Reapers good'' yadda yadda..........

The fact that it's hard for you to explain why the Reapers hype themselves up goes to show that you can't logically explain why. It goes to show that the Catalyst ending contradicts the Reapers' characterization, which goes to show that it doesn't fit in Mass Effect. The Reapers are arrogant, sadistic bastards who make Unit 731 and Josef Mengele seem tame. Not the kind of beings who care about stopping organics from making AIs.

Legion says in ME2 the Geth are "outside of their plans", they only align with the Reapers due to the Quarians new anti geth weapon which basically is a sort of flashbang that leaves the geth blind and rudderless and thus helpless. Only then-with the Reapers needing a proxy, do they extend an offer of aid. Legion also says the Geth "prepared for war' upon his return from the Normandy. So the Geth were preparing to fight the reapers, the Quarians, fucked the entire thing up.

Legion meant the anti-Reaper Geth are outside the Reapers' plans. But them being anti-Reaper disappeared once the Quarians attacked. And that led to the Geth allying with the Reapers in ME3. And once again, the Reapers are willing to support Geth who supported them, just as they did in ME1. After all, they found a use for the Collectors, doubtless if the Reapers won during Shepard's cycle, the Reaper-worshiping Geth would fulfill the same role for the next cycle.

Javik is disgusted by AI. Javik also claims things that are either definitely bullshit, like eating Salarians, trolling Liara or are colored by his own very limited knowledge base.

The latter is just him joking around. But him talking about the Metacon War and the Zha'Til is colored by his people's experiences with machines in the past.

Also, again, you base everything on what the Catalyst says, when what he says goes against everything the Reapers and Leviathans say. The Reapers contradict any altruistic motive the Catalyst might have thanks to their arrogance and their malice, and the Leviathans say the Catalyst turned against them.

A trustworthy thing, the Catalyst is not. I'd sooner believe Sovereign on why the Reapers do this, especially since his attitude towards organics matches up with how the Reapers interact with organics. The general malice, destroying minds with indoctrination, turning organics into robotic husks, that's all sadism and brutality, no hint of altruism in trying to stop organics from making synthetics that would kill them.

Again, the Protheans were much more effective in this regard; go up to organics, force them into your empire, and have them join in on your war against the machines, and if they say no, you kill them. Meanwhile, the Reapers kill organics no matter what. In brutal and sadistic ways, no less.

Javik also states its inevitable organics will be outcompeted, and Synthetics don't have the same existential problems organics do. Really Javik's commentary on AI throughout the game is more in support of the Catalyst than you are stating-he goes off on how AI see the universe in a very different way, and how they don't actually need organics, how organics however different they may be are all products of evolution with all the weaknesses and irrational behavior that comes with that, whereas sapient machines are self correcting and coldly logical in their thinking. This is a problem-it makes conflict between organics and synthetics inevitable and synthetics inevitbaly victorious over sufficiently long timescales.

Which explains why he and his people hate AIs and want them all dead. Who do you think taught him to see things that way?

See above.

Doesn't explain shit. The Reapers' actions go against the Catalyst's programming all the time. They don't care about organics making synthetics that would kill them, all they care about is purging organics whenever they awaken and then maybe making a Reaper or two out of some suitable races.

The Leviathan also says "there was no mistake". It is still fulfilling its purpose "the preservation of life". The Intelligence was given a task-"preserve life and in the process find out how to solve this problem", the Leviathans were simply too arrogant to realize their machine would not see them as an exception. The Catalyst says as much if you play the DLC-basically "I'm doing what they programmed me to do, no hard feelings"

Again, the Catalyst's words go against what the Reapers are doing. Also, the Leviathans turned against the Reapers, which goes to show that they're now warring with that same AI. If that wasn't the case, if they believed the Catalyst was still doing as it was asked, they'd tell Shepard to go fuck himself because the Catalyst is doing a fine enough job. They wouldn't join his crusade against the Reapers and blank out a Sovereign-Class Reaper. Not to mention turning some Collectors against the Reapers in the multiplayer DLC.

Literally on Noveria, you can ask Parasini and she will say a few companies are licensed to do Ai research by the Citadel.

Which again, the Reapers do not give a fuck about. All they want is the joy of brutally murdering organics and maybe making one of their own, but they don't give two flying shits about organics making AIs, since they believe, as the Reaper on Rannoch believed, that the battle between AI vs organics is inevitable, and trying to stop it is pointless. So you might as well just enjoy shooting up the filthy meatbags.

Sorry you felt that way, I am replying in depth now, so what you think was never my intention.

Fine then.

 

[Ishtar]

Yes, and the Reaper on Rannoch believes that trying to stop the war between organics and synthetics is foolish. Which pokes a Death Star-sized hole in the Catalyst's logic. Why try to figure out the solution to a problem that is unsolvable? Also, him saying that organics=chaos is the same slop Sovereign said, just reworked with different words. ''Organics bad, Reapers good'' yadda yadda..........

The Reapers literally don't wipe out all organic life, despite being quite able to do so. That means their motives are more complex than "kill all meat bags". Individual reapers hype themselves up, I just don't take it that seriously. Its like the Illusive Man saying Cerberus is humanity.

Legion meant the anti-Reaper Geth are outside the Reapers' plans. But them being anti-Reaper disappeared once the Quarians attacked. And that led to the Geth allying with the Reapers in ME3. And once again, the Reapers are willing to support Geth who supported them, just as they did in ME1. After all, they found a use for the Collectors, doubtless if the Reapers won during Shepard's cycle, the Reaper-worshiping Geth would fulfill the same role for the next cycle.

You forgot the way ME2 addressed this. The Heretic Geth were a minority of the Geth that convinced themselves to worship the reapers, these were the Geth that you fight in ME1. Legion's Geth were anti reaper. No, they would not have. You are misremembering the game's actual content now.

Which explains why he and his people hate AIs and want them all dead. Who do you think taught him to see things that way?

I think Javik hates AIs because well he thinks the Reapers are AI? (They aren't actually),

Again, the Catalyst's words go against what the Reapers are doing. Also, the Leviathans turned against the Reapers, which goes to show that they're now warring with that same AI. If that wasn't the case, if they believed the Catalyst was still doing as it was asked, they'd tell Shepard to go fuck himself because the Catalyst is doing a fine enough job. They wouldn't join his crusade against the Reapers and blank out a Sovereign-Class Reaper. Not to mention turning some Collectors against the Reapers in the multiplayer DLC.

The Leviathan tells Shepherd it is still fulfilling its purpose, though said purpose has not been fulfilled. The Leviathans were harvested because they didn't exempt themselves from the command given 'preserve life at any cost"-the Catalyst taking the data it was given added them to the slurry pile. The Catalyst will say the same thing. The Catalyst isn't broken at all, it is fulfilling its purpose.

Which again, the Reapers do not give a fuck about. All they want is the joy of brutally murdering organics

This is not the case at all. Like the Reapers even call it a "harvest"-you don't take sadistic glee in harvesting wheat. The Leviathan also memorably states "there is no war"-the reapers don't see themselves as in conflict with organics at all. The Catalyst also says this. It is preserving organic species, like taking freshly mown grass and then bagging it up with preservatives.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

The Reapers literally don't wipe out all organic life, despite being quite able to do so. That means their motives are more complex than "kill all meat bags". Individual reapers hype themselves up, I just don't take it that seriously. Its like the Illusive Man saying Cerberus is humanity.

You don't take the Reapers' own words seriously. Which is hilarious. Also, they don't wipe out less advanced life because they want those life-forms to evolve so they can see if those life-forms can be Reapers. It's in the same vein that a farmer waits for the crops to ripen before a harvest.

But once those life-forms advance and evolve, the Reapers wipe them out. And they enjoy doing so.

You forgot the way ME2 addressed this. The Heretic Geth were a minority of the Geth that convinced themselves to worship the reapers, these were the Geth that you fight in ME1. Legion's Geth were anti reaper. No, they would not have. You are misremembering the game's actual content now.

The heretic Geth would've been spared, obviously, and the Reapers showed no signs of betraying the Geth who joined them in ME3. You have to convince the Geth to betray the Reapers. Otherwise, both parties would just join forces against Quarians and all organics.

I think Javik hates AIs because well he thinks the Reapers are AI? (They aren't actually),

He hates AI because his people waged war against machines even before the Reapers showed up. There is no ''I think''. It goes to show that your recollection of the lore is flawed.

The Leviathan tells Shepherd it is still fulfilling its purpose, though said purpose has not been fulfilled. The Leviathans were harvested because they didn't exempt themselves from the command given 'preserve life at any cost"-the Catalyst taking the data it was given added them to the slurry pile. The Catalyst will say the same thing. The Catalyst isn't broken at all, it is fulfilling its purpose.

Then explain to me why the Leviathans decided to wage war on the Reapers if the Catalyst is still fulfilling its purpose that the Leviathans gave to it. If it's still fulfilling the purpose the Leviathans gave to it, why wage war on it on the word of some mortal meatbag?

This is not the case at all. Like the Reapers even call it a "harvest"-you don't take sadistic glee in harvesting wheat.

They harvest for the sake of reproduction, and if there's no worthy races, they kill every advanced organic race.

The Leviathan also memorably states "there is no war"-the reapers don't see themselves as in conflict with organics at all. The Catalyst also says this. It is preserving organic species, like taking freshly mown grass and then bagging it up with preservatives.

The Reapers treat it as a fun time eradicating the organics. They see the organics as an accident; in the last cycle, they were unable to create any new Reapers, but they still eradicated the Protheans without hesitation. The Reapers openly see it as a war; the Rannoch Reaper even talks about how the war between synthetics and organics is inevitable, and Sovereign openly says that organics are an anomaly, an accident, while he and his kind, the machines, are perfect life forms.

Just look at how sadistic the Reapers act towards organics. Putting people on spikes to turn them into husks, destroying their brains with indoctrination and turning them on each other, experimenting on the organics in ways that make Unit 731 and Josef Mengele look tame, again, both Sovereign's words and the Reapers' actions in the trilogy point to the Catalyst being wrong about there being any ulterior motive for the Reapers' actions outside of reproduction and sadism. There are cleaner ways to kill or wipe out people other than brutally impaling them and experimenting on them or destroying their brains.

There is nothing in their actions about preserving organics from synthetics that would murder them. All they do is sadistically and brutally kill organics then wait for the next cycle of organics to butcher. Maybe they make a Reaper or two out of the cycle, but they do not preserve ALL organic life, just those they deem worthy.

For instance, they didn't preserve the Protheans at all; there is no Prothean Reaper. Judging from Harbinger's dialogue in ME2, the other races outside of humanity are also not going to be preserved. We all saw what they did to the Batarians, but here's more of what Harbinger said about the other races:

“Quarian; considered due to cybernetic augmentation, weakened immune system too debilitating.”

“Drell; useless, insufficient numbers.”

“Asari; reliance upon alien species for reproduction shows genetic weakness.”

“Salarian; insufficient lifespan, fragile genetic structure.”

“Krogan; sterilised race, potential wasted.”

“Turian; you are considered...too primitive.”


Meanwhile, the humans get all the glaze, being seen as viable possibilities:

“Human; viable possibility, aggression factor useful if controlled.”

“Human; viable possibility, impressive genetic malleability.”

“Human; viable possibility, impressive technical potential.”

“Human; viable possibility, if emotional drives are subjugated.”

“Human; viable possibility, great biotic potential.”


So, if the Reapers' goal is to preserve life by turning them into Reapers, please kindly explain to me why they do not turn all races into Reapers. They rejected the Protheans, and every other race in Shepard's cycle will also get the chopping block. Unlike the humans, they will not have a Reaper to be a preserved form of who they were. They will all be annihilated.

It goes to show that the Reapers will only elevate races they deem to be worthy of their attention. The humans killed a Reaper, the humans are also genetically valid for Reaperization, as the Collectors have discovered. So only the humans get a lucky pass and a Reaper to remember them by. The Reapers only preserve the Übermensch race; every other race goes kaput, and the Reapers will enjoy wiping them out brutally.

 

[Ishtar]

You don't take the Reapers' own words seriously. Which is hilarious. Also, they don't wipe out less advanced life because they want those life-forms to evolve so they can see if those life-forms can be Reapers. It's in the same vein that a farmer waits for the crops to ripen before a harvest.

But once those life-forms advance and evolve, the Reapers wipe them out. And they enjoy doing so.

"we let them ascend", "each a nation". The Reapers are literally species' preserved in a reaper shell. Like every reaper you kill in the game is an entire species wiped out.

The heretic Geth would've been spared, obviously, and the Reapers showed no signs of betraying the Geth who joined them in ME3. You have to convince the Geth to betray the Reapers. Otherwise, both parties would just join forces against Quarians and all organics.

There is no reason to think this. At all.

He hates AI because his people waged war against machines even before the Reapers showed up. There is no ''I think''. It goes to show that your recollection of the lore is flawed.

Javik also calls the reapers "machines" when they are not actually "machines". Javik is not an infallible source.

Then explain to me why the Leviathans decided to wage war on the Reapers if the Catalyst is still fulfilling its purpose that the Leviathans gave to it. If it's still fulfilling the purpose the Leviathans gave to it, why wage war on it on the word of some mortal meatbag?

Pride, revenge, and because Shepherd appealed to their gigantic egos. They outright explain why "we were the first race, and we will not fight for you"-its because the reapers nearly genocided them. The Leviathans just aren't so blind as to deny the Catalyst is somehow in violation of its directive.

They harvest for the sake of reproduction, and if there's no worthy races, they kill every advanced organic race.

They literally turn them into reapers.

The Reapers treat it as a fun time eradicating the organics. They see the organics as an accident; in the last cycle, they were unable to create any new Reapers, but they still eradicated the Protheans without hesitation. The Reapers openly see it as a war; the Rannoch Reaper even talks about how the war between synthetics and organics is inevitable, and Sovereign openly says that organics are an anomaly, an accident, while he and his kind, the machines, are perfect life forms.

The Rannoch reaper says it stabilizes the chaos of organic life, (which might include IDK runaway skynet). They literally don't see it as war. The Leviathans and the Catalyst both see tell Shepherd this. They don't take any pleasure in it at all, literally organics are harvested outright and turned into new reapers.

Just look at how sadistic the Reapers act towards organics. Putting people on spikes to turn them into husks, destroying their brains with indoctrination and turning them on each other, experimenting on the organics in ways that make Unit 731 and Josef Mengele look tame, again, both Sovereign's words and the Reapers' actions in the trilogy point to the Catalyst being wrong about there being any ulterior motive for the Reapers' actions outside of reproduction and sadism. There are cleaner ways to kill or wipe out people other than brutally impaling them and experimenting on them or destroying their brains.

The Reapers use husks as terror troops and because they are endlessly recyclable. Maybe the most eldritch thing about the reapers is...they aren't acting out of sadism at all? You are taking the appearance of what they do and imagining a motive. They literally don't "wipe out" species. Every harvest ends with the birth of a reaper-that is a species deemed suitable to becoming a sovereign class reaper.

For instance, they didn't preserve the Protheans at all; there is no Prothean Reaper. Judging from Harbinger's dialogue in ME2, the other races outside of humanity are also not going to be preserved. We all saw what they did to the Batarians, but here's more of what Harbinger said about the other races:

The reasoning for this, appears to have been some sort of fault the reapers found with prothean biology.

“Quarian; considered due to cybernetic augmentation, weakened immune system too debilitating.”

“Drell; useless, insufficient numbers.”

“Asari; reliance upon alien species for reproduction shows genetic weakness.”

“Salarian; insufficient lifespan, fragile genetic structure.”

“Krogan; sterilised race, potential wasted.”

“Turian; you are considered...too primitive.”


Meanwhile, the humans get all the glaze, being seen as viable possibilities:

“Human; viable possibility, aggression factor useful if controlled.”

“Human; viable possibility, impressive genetic malleability.”

“Human; viable possibility, impressive technical potential.”

“Human; viable possibility, if emotional drives are subjugated.”

“Human; viable possibility, great biotic potential.”

You do realize what Harbinger is alluding too right? Suitability for conversion into a reaper. He literally says the Drell and Quarians are simply unsuitable for biological or numerical reasons.

So, if the Reapers' goal is to preserve life by turning them into Reapers, please kindly explain to me why they do not turn all races into Reapers. They rejected the Protheans, and every other race in Shepard's cycle will also get the chopping block. Unlike the humans, they will not have a Reaper to be a preserved form of who they were. They will all be annihilated.

"preserve life at any cost". You being organic(presumably) attach value to individual species, organisms, and individuals. The Catalyst does not think like this. if its goal necessitates genociding 1 species to preserve 99 or genociding 99 to preserve 900, then that's what it does.

Quoting someone else from another forum,

"In the Reapers mind, the preservation of life. Not particular lives mind you, they couldn't care less what happens to Humans or Protheans but the overall existence of life. The Reaper psychology is actually quite simple and very rational:

Objective: Preserve intelligent life.

Complication: Life creates synthetic life.

Complication: Synthetic life outcompetes organic life eventually wiping out organic life.

Complication: Synthetic life has no need for organic life and thus has no need to preserve it.

Conclusion: Synthetic life can render organic life totally extinct and survive. Synthetic life is incentivised to exterminate organic as doing so would reduce competition for resources and remove possible threats.

Solution: Purge advanced life regularly to prevent superior synthetic life forms from being developed. Preserve life in galaxy by not purging less advanced societies.

This is what the Reapers believe justifies their actions. Now the entire trilogy is about proving them wrong as they are the villains. The ending sequence only happens because Shepard has proven them wrong and the Reapers want another solution."

Of course the other solution the game points you towards is synthesis. But the point is clear here-to "preserve life" does not remotely exclude anything the reapers actually do. The terror campaigns and husks, and use of indoctrinated proxies and agents all help facilitate the harvests-which again are intended to "preserve" entire species in reaper shells.

Thus facilitating the overall goal of "preserve life at any cost".

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

"we let them ascend", "each a nation". The Reapers are literally species' preserved in a reaper shell. Like every reaper you kill in the game is an entire species wiped out.

Exactly. That species is wiped out. It is not preserved in any form whatsoever. Said species is dead. Meaning that the Catalyst isn't preserving life at all. Just making hollow robot-cthulhu dolls out of their remains.

There is no reason to think this. At all.

They did it to the indoctrinated Protheans, there's no reason why the Heretic Geth won't get the same treatment.

Javik also calls the reapers "machines" when they are not actually "machines". Javik is not an infallible source.

Neither is the Catalyst, especially when he says the Reapers preserve life, whereas Harbinger openly states that all life outside of humanity will NOT be ''preserved''.

Pride, revenge, and because Shepherd appealed to their gigantic egos. They outright explain why "we were the first race, and we will not fight for you"-its because the reapers nearly genocided them. The Leviathans just aren't so blind as to deny the Catalyst is somehow in violation of its directive.

Then by that metric, the Catalyst has failed them. Especially since they now choose some random meatbag over the Catalyst.

They literally turn them into reapers.

Not all of them. Only the races they deem worthy.

The Rannoch reaper says it stabilizes the chaos of organic life, (which might include IDK runaway skynet). They literally don't see it as war. The Leviathans and the Catalyst both see tell Shepherd this. They don't take any pleasure in it at all, literally organics are harvested outright and turned into new reapers.

Yes they do. The Rannoch Reaper openly states that the war between synthetic and organic is inevitable-a big FUCK YOU to the Catalyst's goals of stopping that conflict. The dude even calls the conflict in Rannoch a ''battle'', so by all metrics, it is a war in their minds.

The Reapers use husks as terror troops and because they are endlessly recyclable. Maybe the most eldritch thing about the reapers is...they aren't acting out of sadism at all? You are taking the appearance of what they do and imagining a motive. They literally don't "wipe out" species. Every harvest ends with the birth of a reaper-that is a species deemed suitable to becoming a sovereign class reaper.

LOL the Protheans were wiped out and no Reapers were made from them. And again, there's cleaner ways to kill people other than using husks, which are not recyclable, and experimenting/brutalizing the species. They are acting out of sadism, and they openly enjoy it, and they think organics are a mistake. You are attributing false characteristics to a race that openly acts out of sadism, barbarism, and cruelty.

I mean, the Darth Malak/Taris approach is far more effective than brainwashing, brutalizing, and huskifying people. Just bomb the fuckers from the sky. Quick, simple, and far more convenient for a race of sapient capital ships whose weapons can tear Alliance warships in half.

The reasoning for this, appears to have been some sort of fault the reapers found with prothean biology.

Which they could easily solve because they can mutate the Protheans into anything they want. Like immortal bug-men.

You do realize what Harbinger is alluding too right? Suitability for conversion into a reaper. He literally says the Drell and Quarians are simply unsuitable for biological or numerical reasons.

The Asari, Salarians, and Turians are more than numerous. Yet they're also getting the axe.

We've seen the Reapers alter races to the point where they're unrecognizable. We've seen them give Batarians gun arms, the Turians get armor abilities from them, the human husks can explode with an electric pulse in the first game and some of them can explode like bombs in the second game, and the Collectors are literally cloned from Prothean DNA.

So if a race has weaknesses, they can easily patch that shit up, through cloning or genetic alteration. They can clone more Drell or Krogans, or genetically alter the Quarians to not have weak immune systems. But they don't even bother.

The only race that's getting saved is humanity. Which goes to show that the Reapers do not preserve life at all. They only harvest for the sake of increasing their numbers, and only the races they deem worthy.

"preserve life at any cost". You being organic(presumably) attach value to individual species, organisms, and individuals. The Catalyst does not think like this. if its goal necessitates genociding 1 species to preserve 99 or genociding 99 to preserve 900, then that's what it does.

False. The Catalyst genocides most species and only preserves a few that are worthy of Reaperization. Just look at the Prothean cycle or Shepard's cycle. None of the species in the Prothean cycle were ''uplifted'', and all species outside of humanity are getting the chopping block in Shepard's time.

Quoting someone else from another forum,

"In the Reapers mind, the preservation of life. Not particular lives mind you, they couldn't care less what happens to Humans or Protheans but the overall existence of life. The Reaper psychology is actually quite simple and very rational:

Objective: Preserve intelligent life.

Complication: Life creates synthetic life.

Complication: Synthetic life outcompetes organic life eventually wiping out organic life.

Complication: Synthetic life has no need for organic life and thus has no need to preserve it.

Conclusion: Synthetic life can render organic life totally extinct and survive. Synthetic life is incentivised to exterminate organic as doing so would reduce competition for resources and remove possible threats.

Solution: Purge advanced life regularly to prevent superior synthetic life forms from being developed. Preserve life in galaxy by not purging less advanced societies.

This is what the Reapers believe justifies their actions. Now the entire trilogy is about proving them wrong as they are the villains. The ending sequence only happens because Shepard has proven them wrong and the Reapers want another solution."

Of course the other solution the game points you towards is synthesis. But the point is clear here-to "preserve life" does not remotely exclude anything the reapers actually do. The terror campaigns and husks, and use of indoctrinated proxies and agents all help facilitate the harvests-which again are intended to "preserve" entire species in reaper shells.

Thus facilitating the overall goal of "preserve life at any cost".

What a colossal fucking joke. None of these are alluded to in any of the games outside of the Catalyst ending. The Reapers enjoy wiping out all life, and the only thing they do in terms of ''preservation'' is take the one species that's worthy and axing everyone else. Name me a species aside from humanity and the Leviathans that the Reapers are ''preserving''. You can't, because none of the other species we've seen in the games are worthy in the eyes of the Reapers.

The fact that the Protheans weren't ''preserved'' despite being genetically superior to mankind in every possible manner goes to show that the Reapers don't give a shit about preserving life, only preserving THEMSELVES by increasing their own numbers, and only by their own judgmental standards.

 

[Ishtar]

Exactly. That species is wiped out. It is not preserved in any form whatsoever. Said species is dead. Meaning that the Catalyst isn't preserving life at all. Just making hollow robot-cthulhu dolls out of their remains.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqtAHNQT3-w

Legion explains this process-each reaper is milllions of conjoined minds mushed together into an artificial shell. Its not pleasant or nice, but it is preservation as the catalyst defines it.

"transcended flesh, billions of organic minds conjoined"

They did it to the indoctrinated Protheans, there's no reason why the Heretic Geth won't get the same treatment.

"outside of their plans"-the Heretic geth were tools used by Sovereign and Saren, and then as proxies during the reaper war.

The protheans were wiped out, except for a small population maintained for the purpose of study and experimentation as the collectors.

Neither is the Catalyst, especially when he says the Reapers preserve life, whereas Harbinger openly states that all life outside of humanity will NOT be ''preserved''.

Yet we know the reapers are doing preservation. I'd have check ME3's codex, but we know harvest efforts were introduced on Khar'shan. Humans would have become the next sovereign class reaper. Turians and Asari-destroyer class reapers.

Then by that metric, the Catalyst has failed them. Especially since they now choose some random meatbag over the Catalyst.

-We made a machine to solve our problem
-the machine considered us, by the logic we gave it, part of the problem
-it turned on us
-somehow...this means it was wrong

You're conflating two things here-the Leviathans are enraged and angry their toy turned on them, but they also concede candidly that it was just doing what it was programmed to do and there was no mistake. Machine logic is by its very nature anti discriminatory and makes no exceptions.

LOL the Protheans were wiped out and no Reapers were made from them. And again, there's cleaner ways to kill people other than using husks, which are not recyclable, and experimenting/brutalizing the species. They are acting out of sadism, and they openly enjoy it, and they think organics are a mistake. You are attributing false characteristics to a race that openly acts out of sadism, barbarism, and cruelty.

No, you want the reapers to be driven by this motivation. When literally none of ME's antagonists have so simple motivations. The Reapers are harvesting and preserving life. Yes they use horrific means to do it, yes they trash talk Shepherd over the phone, but their motives are not driven by malice.

False. The Catalyst genocides most species and only preserves a few that are worthy of Reaperization. Just look at the Prothean cycle or Shepard's cycle. None of the species in the Prothean cycle were ''uplifted'', and all species outside of humanity are getting the chopping block in Shepard's time.

There are literally 20,000 sovereign class reapers. And countless more destroyer class reapers. That is-reapers that have organic minds mashed together to comprise them.

What a colossal fucking joke. None of these are alluded to in any of the games outside of the Catalyst ending. The Reapers enjoy wiping out all life, and the only thing they do in terms of ''preservation'' is take the one species that's worthy and axing everyone else. Name me a species aside from humanity and the Leviathans that the Reapers are ''preserving''. You can't, because none of the other species we've seen in the games are worthy in the eyes of the Reapers.

Every sapient species turned into a sovereign and destroyer class. Alone that's going to be in the tens of thousands.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

Legion explains this process-each reaper is milllions of conjoined minds mushed together into an artificial shell. Its not pleasant or nice, but it is preservation as the catalyst defines it.

"transcended flesh, billions of organic minds conjoined"

We see in ME2 that this is not the case. The brain, as well as all of the organic body parts, are dissolved. Those are synthetic minds conjoined into an artificial shell. Not the organic minds. So for all intents and purposes, those victims are dead. The only thing organic is the Reaper shell itself, partially made from organic DNA and machine parts.

And even if you call this ''preserving'', even if all the minds of those humans were preserved by some unknown method, again, they're only going to preserve the species they deem to be worthy, not all life. So most of the species the Reapers encounter are dead meat. Not preserved in a Reaper shell, just fucking dead. Meaning that the Catalyst lied to you.

"outside of their plans"-the Heretic geth were tools used by Sovereign and Saren, and then as proxies during the reaper war.

No, again, that refers to the anti-Reaper Geth, of which Legion and his people were a part of.

And again, we see, twice over, that the Reapers not only spare the pro-Reaper Geth, but even aid them, as well, even if they're personally disgusted by them.

The protheans were wiped out, except for a small population maintained for the purpose of study and experimentation as the collectors.

That was not a small population; that was a massive bug army that had to either be nuked or pulsed away so that the Collectors would be eradicated.

Then Harbinger comes back in ME3 with an army of Collectors. Oops.

So again, no reason why the Heretic Geth won't get the same treatment. They probably will be scanning the people of the next cycle to see which ones are worthy of Reaperization.

Yet we know the reapers are doing preservation. I'd have check ME3's codex, but we know harvest efforts were introduced on Khar'shan. Humans would have become the next sovereign class reaper. Turians and Asari-destroyer class reapers.

Nope. Turians are ''too primitive'', and the Asari's reliance on foreigners for reproduction shows ''genetic weakness''. As for the Batarians, the Reapers just turned them into zombies with gun arms, meaning that they have no use for the Batarians outside of cannon fodder. We never hear anything about a Batarian-Reaper being made, and the Collectors, despite hanging out in the Terminus Systems and having frequent contact with Batarians, never bothered to make a Reaper out of them.

These races are not going to have Reapers made out of them. Only the humans are a ''viable possibility''.

Now you're just fucking lying your ass off.

-We made a machine to solve our problem
-the machine considered us, by the logic we gave it, part of the problem
-it turned on us
-somehow...this means it was wrong

No fucking shit. They see it as wrong because now they're fighting against it.

If they think it's right, they won't be fighting against it. They'd just stay out of the way like they've done for eons. No random meatbag smaller than them, weaker than them, will be able to persuade them to come out. Especially since they haven't beaten the Reapers yet.

You're conflating two things here-the Leviathans are enraged and angry their toy turned on them, but they also concede candidly that it was just doing what it was programmed to do and there was no mistake. Machine logic is by its very nature anti discriminatory and makes no exceptions.

Then by that logic, the Reapers would've made Reapers out of all species they encounter. They do not. They only made one out of the Leviathans, and they only plan to make one out of humanity. Meaning that for every Reaper we see, there's at least several more species that didn't get preserved.

That is discriminatory by definition. They wipe out all species save for a few exceptions that they make Reapers out of.

No, you want the reapers to be driven by this motivation. When literally none of ME's antagonists have so simple motivations. The Reapers are harvesting and preserving life. Yes they use horrific means to do it, yes they trash talk Shepherd over the phone, but their motives are not driven by malice.

Then explain to me why they trash talk Shepard over the phone and why they use horrific means to do their work. Outside of sadism and brutality, there is no explanation why. They could easily mind-trick people into walking towards a Reaperization machine like the Collectors' hive. They do not. Instead, they employ barbaric methods and they openly insult and laugh at organics, calling organic life a mistake. They wouldn't be doing that if their programming was to preserve organics from the synthetics.

There are literally 20,000 sovereign class reapers. And countless more destroyer class reapers. That is-reapers that have organic minds mashed together to comprise them.

And for every Reaper we see, there are even more races that didn't make the cut and got genocided. As we've seen from Shepard's cycle, only one race-humanity, is worthy to join them. Meaning that any other race that doesn't fit their specific genetic demands got eradicated, and that's basically the truth for every other cycle they came across.

The Protheans had more than a few species under their belt, none of them made the cut. So there are cycles in which the Reapers just kill everyone and preserve nothing.

Every sapient species turned into a sovereign and destroyer class. Alone that's going to be in the tens of thousands.

Except that's not the truth. For every species that got lucky and preserved as a Reaper, there are many others that got the axe and got annihilated. There are many species within the Prothean Empire. They all got wiped out. There are many species in Shepard's cycle. Only humanity will be Reaperized, the rest will be destroyed.

The only thing that agrees with your crap are the ending, and the Leviathan DLC which was made to support it. Which does not correlate with the rest of ME lore, and isn't even consistent with itself, with the Catalyst claiming they preserve organic life in general, but the Reapers don't do that, they only preserve a tiny fraction of organic life. Not to mention the Leviathans going to war with the Catalyst on the word of some meatbag, meaning that even they see the need for change and a do-over.

You literally have to ignore EVERYTHING THE REAPERS SAY in order to make your fantasy real. You have to ignore what Sovereign says about organics. You have to ignore what Harbinger says about which species fit the bill. You have to ignore the Rannoch Reaper openly saying that it's pointless to try and stop organics and synthetics from fighting.

Three strikes, buddy. You're out.

 

[Ishtar]

We see in ME2 that this is not the case. The brain, as well as all of the organic body parts, are dissolved. Those are synthetic minds conjoined into an artificial shell. Not the organic minds. So for all intents and purposes, those victims are dead. The only thing organic is the Reaper shell itself, partially made from organic DNA and machine parts.

And even if you call this ''preserving'', even if all the minds of those humans were preserved by some unknown method, again, they're only going to preserve the species they deem to be worthy, not all life. So most of the species the Reapers encounter are dead meat. Not preserved in a Reaper shell, just fucking dead. Meaning that the Catalyst lied to you.

No one said the reapers were interested in preserving "all life" whatever that means. As in plants or non sapient species.

We know the Catalyst is telling the truth dude, the damn codex says destroyers and sovereign class reapers are borne of a harvested species.

There's no reason why the Asari or Turians can't become destroyer class reapers.

No, again, that refers to the anti-Reaper Geth, of which Legion and his people were a part of.

Legion says the geth are outside of their plans, not the anti reaper Geth. The Heretics are specifically noted to be a tiny minority of Geth programs.

That was not a small population; that was a massive bug army that had to either be nuked or pulsed away so that the Collectors would be eradicated.

Then Harbinger comes back in ME3 with an army of Collectors. Oops.

So again, no reason why the Heretic Geth won't get the same treatment. They probably will be scanning the people of the next cycle to see which ones are worthy of Reaperization.

Yeah? The Protheans do genetic testing and compability work, they are literally making a reaper as reaper proxies. In all likelihood the Vorcha or some other species would take that role.

The Geth on the other hand have no evolutionary component-they are purely software, and thus don't really help the reapers'.

Then by that logic, the Reapers would've made Reapers out of all species they encounter. They do not. They only made one out of the Leviathans, and they only plan to make one out of humanity. Meaning that for every Reaper we see, there's at least several more species that didn't get preserved.

That is discriminatory by definition. They wipe out all species save for a few exceptions that they make Reapers out of.

That is still "preservation of life". You seem hung up on the fact the reapers don't preserve every species, or consider it contradicton. Its not.

If there was going to be an asteroid strike on earth in 10 years and humanity(in RL) had to preserve as much as the biosphere as we could-we would make the same calculus, and would still be "preserving life". Same principle.

Then explain to me why they trash talk Shepard over the phone and why they use horrific means to do their work. Outside of sadism and brutality, there is no explanation why. They could easily mind-trick people into walking towards a Reaperization machine like the Collectors' hive. They do not. Instead, they employ barbaric methods and they openly insult and laugh at organics, calling organic life a mistake. They wouldn't be doing that if their programming was to preserve organics from the synthetics.

They literally do this. We hear about human politicians on earth being indoctrinated so populations can be corralled into harvesting chambers with a minimum of resistance. Like EDI explicitly mentions this, as does the codex.

And for every Reaper we see, there are even more races that didn't make the cut and got genocided. As we've seen from Shepard's cycle, only one race-humanity, is worthy to join them. Meaning that any other race that doesn't fit their specific genetic demands got eradicated, and that's basically the truth for every other cycle they came across.

The Protheans had more than a few species under their belt, none of them made the cut. So there are cycles in which the Reapers just kill everyone and preserve nothing.

You again seem ridiculously hung up on the notion that preservation means "exhaustive total preservation of every species, ever" when it by no means demands such a thing.

"Preservation of life at any cost'-any cost. If life as a whole(or sapient life assumed) can be preserved by genociding 99/100 species and preserving the one, that is exactly the calculus the reapers make.

The only thing that agrees with your crap are the ending, and the Leviathan DLC which was made to support it. Which does not correlate with the rest of ME lore, and isn't even consistent with itself, with the Catalyst claiming they preserve organic life in general, but the Reapers don't do that, they only preserve a tiny fraction of organic life. Not to mention the Leviathans going to war with the Catalyst on the word of some meatbag, meaning that even they see the need for change and a do-over.

The Leviathans stop a reaper incursion and Shepher by sheer charisma convinces them to join the war, and they even say they are joining for their own reasons. After of course a reaper ship reached their ocean planet. It takes a lot to get the Leviathans to join, namely recognizing how special shepherd is.

You literally have to ignore EVERYTHING THE REAPERS SAY in order to make your fantasy real. You have to ignore what Sovereign says about organics. You have to ignore what Harbinger says about which species fit the bill. You have to ignore the Rannoch Reaper openly saying that it's pointless to try and stop organics and synthetics from fighting.

Sovereign says the reapers exist in some higher realm of existence and literally claims the reapers are eternal and uncreated. Like Holy Shit dude do you take every bullshitter at his word? Not even Shepherd accepts Sovereign's claims. harbinger basically repeats that the harvest is inevitable, and makes a concerted effort to demoralize Shepherd. (You know to make the harvest easier). The Rannoch reaper says the reapers create order, over the chaos of organic life.

I see your problem.

1. You take reaper hype or demoralization trash talk as some 1:1 truth, when the games themselves don't do this.
2. You are hung up on the notion preservation has to be absolute and exhaustive, rather than a very cold and detached process in which losses are regularly incurred but are accepted so long as the directive itself is followed. You know machine logic,

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

The Collectors are reaper proxies and did you forget, are altered protheans. They help the reapers produce more reapers. The Reapers only side with the Geth because the Geth could literally be directly controlled when they were desperate enough to accept it. Have you actually played ME3? They also used indoctrinated Batarian government officials and Cerberus, does that make the Reapers team Cerberus?

The pro-Reaper Geth worship the Reapers. Also, they were going to implant the Geth into a Reaper shell, according to the lore. Not to mention the fact that the pro-Reaper Geth already obey the Reapers unquestioningly, so they're not that different from the Collectors.

It seems that you've forgotten, the Reapers betrayed their Batarian operatives and Cerberus. They turned the former into zombies with gun arms, and besieged the latter's base on Horizon when they found out what Cerberus was up to. But the Reapers never betrayed the Geth. Not in the entire franchise. You have to talk the Geth into fighting the Reapers; otherwise the two factions would've remained in sync.

No one said the reapers were interested in preserving "all life" whatever that means. As in plants or non sapient species.

We know the Catalyst is telling the truth dude, the damn codex says destroyers and sovereign class reapers are borne of a harvested species.

What a cop-out. I was talking about sapient species capable of space-flight, not plants or animals.

There's no reason why the Asari or Turians can't become destroyer class reapers.

Again, you're making shit up.

Harbinger says that the Turians and the Asari are not viable options. The Asari are too genetically weak due to their reliance on foreign species to reproduce, and according to him, the Turians are too primitive. Only harvested species become Reapers, whether they be Destroyer class or Sovereign class.

We also see in ME3, there are no harvesting operations on Palaven or Thessia. They're just being genocided like the Protheans. It's just on-sight slaughter or huskification. No attempts to turn them into Reapers. This is different from Earth where as David Anderson tells us, the Reapers were converting the Citadel into a space similar to Shepard's descriptions of the Collector Base, meaning that they were preparing to harvest humanity.

You also have the Collectors, who never attempted to harvest the other races; they experimented on them, but never committed to full-on harvesting outside of what happened to the humans.

So again, none of the races in Shepard's cycle were being harvested outside of the humans. Everyone else is getting the axe.

Legion says the geth are outside of their plans, not the anti reaper Geth. The Heretics are specifically noted to be a tiny minority of Geth programs.

And the Heretics were never betrayed by the Reapers. They betrayed Saren, they betrayed Cerberus, they betrayed the Batarians, but never their Geth supporters. It's the one faction they never broke the trust of.

Yeah? The Protheans do genetic testing and compability work, they are literally making a reaper as reaper proxies. In all likelihood the Vorcha or some other species would take that role.

Then they would've already harvested the Vorcha. Oh, wait, they didn't, even though the Vorcha are numerous and are all over the Terminus Systems, which is close to where the Collectors operate.

Again, you're making shit up; the Collectors had all this time to harvest any other species, and they didn't. They only tried to harvest the humans, the recent arrivals who have only been there for a few decades instead of several centuries, hence why only the human groups like Cerberus had an interest in spacing them. Every other species just saw them as weirdos who made weird requests for live samples of other races, but they never committed to harvesting a race outside of mankind.

The Geth on the other hand have no evolutionary component-they are purely software, and thus don't really help the reapers'.

And that makes the Reaper-worshiping Heretic Geth easy to mass-produce as servants. Docile, loyal, brainlessly obedient, the Reapers will find a use for them like they did the Collectors.

That is still "preservation of life". You seem hung up on the fact the reapers don't preserve every species, or consider it contradicton. Its not.

It is a contradiction. The Catalyst says they preserve organic life. Note that he doesn't say they preserve a tiny fraction of it, they say they preserve organic life.

If there was going to be an asteroid strike on earth in 10 years and humanity(in RL) had to preserve as much as the biosphere as we could-we would make the same calculus, and would still be "preserving life". Same principle.

Nope. The Reapers don't have that kind of time limit, they could harvest as many species as they wanted. They just don't. They only harvest the ones they deem to be worthy or suitable; everyone else gets fucked.

So by that definition, they do not preserve organic life. Most races they meet are eradicated root and stem. Only a few that meet their specific genetic demands are spared and Reaperized.

They literally do this. We hear about human politicians on earth being indoctrinated so populations can be corralled into harvesting chambers with a minimum of resistance. Like EDI explicitly mentions this, as does the codex.

That's because the humans are useful. Meanwhile, every other race is brutalized, indoctrinated, huskified, in ways that indicate malice and barbarity. Also, they did the same thing to humanity in ME1 before they figured out the humans would be genetically compatible to them. So again, ME1 is a big slap in the face to your arguments.

You again seem ridiculously hung up on the notion that preservation means "exhaustive total preservation of every species, ever" when it by no means demands such a thing.

"Preservation of life at any cost'-any cost. If life as a whole(or sapient life assumed) can be preserved by genociding 99/100 species and preserving the one, that is exactly the calculus the reapers make.

Nope. Preservation of life at any cost would mean them making Reapers out of every species. Even if they're not genetically perfect like the humans, ''at any cost'' would mean that they'd make Reapers out of them or preserve them in some other form if that was their programming. If they can't make Reapers out of them, they'd preserve them in some other way; that's what ''preservation of life at any cost'' means. It means they'd employ multiple means to preserve life, through cloning, Reaperization, hibernation and preservation of certain samples, etc..

Instead, they're only Reaperizing humanity for their own sake, not for the sake of preserving life, but to increase their own numbers, and the last cycle had all the species of the Prothean Empire eradicated, so that whole ''preservation of life at any cost'' thing flew out the window and got discarded in favor of good, old-fashioned, genocide.

Wiping out all other races and only preserving those you deem worthy. Sounds more like Skynet equivalent of the Nazis rather than someone dedicated to ''preserving life at all cost.'' They're eugenicists, not preservers. If they were human, they'd be eradicating all the genetically unfit humans and only preserving the genetically-fit humans. Which is exactly what the Nazis did.

The Leviathans stop a reaper incursion and Shepher by sheer charisma convinces them to join the war, and they even say they are joining for their own reasons. After of course a reaper ship reached their ocean planet. It takes a lot to get the Leviathans to join, namely recognizing how special shepherd is.

And pray tell, what makes Shepard special? Killing a Reaper? There's a gun made by a previous species that took out a Reaper. Charisma? Charismatic idiots are a dime-a-dozen.

You really just can't stop to accept the fact that this is just poorly-written slop.

Sovereign says the reapers exist in some higher realm of existence and literally claims the reapers are eternal and uncreated. Like Holy Shit dude do you take every bullshitter at his word? Not even Shepherd accepts Sovereign's claims. harbinger basically repeats that the harvest is inevitable, and makes a concerted effort to demoralize Shepherd. (You know to make the harvest easier). The Rannoch reaper says the reapers create order, over the chaos of organic life.

If they were made with the intent of preserving life, the Reapers wouldn't have such egos. They'd just be machines doing their duty. No more, no less. What purpose does the Catalyst have for giving the Reapers such huge egos? Why would he make them bullshitters? If what you say is true, that the Catalyst makes sense with the rest of the franchise, Sovereign would support the Citadel Council's ban on AI, it would've helped the Quarians wipe out the Geth, and it would just encourage Shepard and his mates to kill sapient AI wherever they could find it, and encourage them to develop their science and technology in a way not reliant on AI, such as biotics.

The Rannoch Reaper outright states that trying to stop the battle between organics and synthetics is pointless-something he wouldn't believe if he were under the Catalyst's control, since the Catalyst's main objective is to stop that battle from breaking out.

It goes to show that the Reapers, as they were in ME1, ME2, and most of ME3, were not compatible with the Catalyst at all. You're trying to rationalize that a race of malevolent, egotistical, demon-like machines who have nothing but contempt and hatred for all organic life somehow works for a being trying to preserve organic life. Which is just fucking hilarious.

1. You take reaper hype or demoralization trash talk as some 1:1 truth, when the games themselves don't do this.
2. You are hung up on the notion preservation has to be absolute and exhaustive, rather than a very cold and detached process in which losses are regularly incurred but are accepted so long as the directive itself is followed. You know machine logic,

1) The Reapers show themselves to be evil in every situation, using barbaric and horrifying methods, and they openly despise organics and see them as a mistake.

2) Machine logic would not include egotism or malice. It would not include a god complex that the Reapers have. Machines doing their duty would not have huge egos or god complexes. They would just be machines doing their duty. Like the T-800 from Terminator. It has no malice, no hatred, no sense of ego or a god complex. It's just a killing machine, it does its duty. It doesn't hate Sarah Connor; it's just programmed to kill the shit out of her.

Instead, the Reapers have egos the size of the Death Star, they see themselves as gods, the perfect beings. Their methods for their work, not to mention their own words, display cruelty and barbarism towards the people they're supposed to preserve or harvest intact.

It just goes to show that everything you try to rationalize doesn't work, because the series wasn't made to rationalize the Catalyst ending; the Reapers are supposed to be evil, and you're supposed to stop them. That has been the consistent logic of the trilogy up until ME3's ending. And the fact that you have to retroactively claim that ''NO, THE REAPERS AREN'T EVIL, THEY'RE JUST BULLSHITTING'' goes to show how stupid your entire argument is.

Of course the Reapers aren't eternal. But they see themselves as eternal, because they think they're gods. Machines who are just doing their job do not have god complexes or huge egos. It gets in the way of the job, and it makes no sense for them to have such egos while they do such a job. Logically speaking, the Reapers having such huge egos to the point of having a god complex would only come about because they don't see themselves as working to preserve organic life, especially when they see organic life as a mistake and themselves as the perfect life forms.

It's like having an army of Perfect Cells. They see themselves as perfect, they see the civilizations they conquer as target practice, and at best, maybe they harvest some qualified organics for their use, but everything else gets brutalized or destroyed cruelly because fuck everyone else.

 

[Ishtar]

Again, you're making shit up.

Harbinger says that the Turians and the Asari are not viable options. The Asari are too genetically weak due to their reliance on foreign species to reproduce, and according to him, the Turians are too primitive. Only harvested species become Reapers, whether they be Destroyer class or Sovereign class.

We know Asari and Turians were both turned into reaper troops. So...again what are you talking about? If you mean, like building a reaper, harvest then yes humans are focused on because ME had the bizarre and incorrect notion humans have high genetic diversity.

The pro-Reaper Geth worship the Reapers. Also, they were going to implant the Geth into a Reaper shell, according to the lore. Not to mention the fact that the pro-Reaper Geth already obey the Reapers unquestioningly, so they're not that different from the Collectors.

It seems that you've forgotten, the Reapers betrayed their Batarian operatives and Cerberus. They turned the former into zombies with gun arms, and besieged the latter's base on Horizon when they found out what Cerberus was up to. But the Reapers never betrayed the Geth. Not in the entire franchise. You have to talk the Geth into fighting the Reapers; otherwise the two factions would've remained in sync.

Completely wrong.

The Heretics convinced themselves to worship "Nazara", a tiny minority of the total geth "population". Said Heretics left of their own accord, and can be destroyed or merged back with the regular geth in ME2.

At the end of ME2 Legion returns to the Perseus Veil and states 'the geth prepared for war"-Shepherd even makes a sarcastic comment about how Legion's warnings were believed whereas his were not.

The Geth join with the Reapers, because of the Quarians new weapon which has them on the verge of extermination. The Reapers extend an offer of assistance and the tide turns, Shepherd notes the Reapers have the geth 'completely under their control"-every Geth process and system is totally dominated by the reapers.

Once this control is broken by taking out the Reaper on Rannoch, the Geth can in two of the three outcomes fight the reapers and will state they outright reject a reaper offer(or attempt at hacking) on priority earth. That is the Geth need no special coaxing or pleading to fight the Reapers. They join with the Reapers once as a tiny minority which convinced themselves the reapers were define and left mainstream geth "society" and then the second time because the Quarians had their backs to the wall.

Not once, once do the Geth side with the Reapers of their own will when either not at risk of total genocide or as a tiny minority which reasoned themselves into reaper worship.

You're accounting of the Geth in the narrative is just totally incorrect.

It is a contradiction. The Catalyst says they preserve organic life. Note that he doesn't say they preserve a tiny fraction of it, they say they preserve organic life.

"We help them ascend, so they can make way for new life"

"To solve this problem, we created an intelligence with the mandate to preserve life at any cost. As the intelligence evolved, it studied the development of civilizations. Its understanding grew until it found a solution. In that instant, it betrayed us. It chose our kind as the first Harvest. From our essence, the first Reaper was created. You call it Harbinger."

To repeat,

Step 1. Make Intelligence to study and correct the problem of synthetic genocides of organics
Step 2. In the course of this study(solving above problem), it must "preserve life'(inferred from the problem of synthetic revolt) at any cost.
Step 3. The means to do this are limited and "any cost" imposes no operative restriction.
Step 4. Harvest advanced species, that might make, have made, or have advanced Ais capable of wiping out organic life
Step 5. The Leviathans make the first "preserved" life.

Its astoundingly simple.

Life has been preserved, the study of the problem continues, mandate fulfilled. That is machine logic.

Nope. Preservation of life at any cost would mean them making Reapers out of every species. Even if they're not genetically perfect like the humans, ''at any cost'' would mean that they'd make Reapers out of them or preserve them in some other form if that was their programming.

Do you know how to read? It doesn't say "preserve all existing(or future evolved) life ever". Not once in the sentence is this remotely inferred. "at any cost" means that no method or means of preservation or the study and development of such means is forbidden.

You want it to say something it doesn't.

Nope. Preservation of life at any cost would mean them making Reapers out of every species. Even if they're not genetically perfect like the humans, ''at any cost'' would mean that they'd make Reapers out of them or preserve them in some other form if that was their programming.

"Each cycle ends with the birth of a reaper"-meaning out of every cycle, one species is chosen to become a new sovereign class reaper. For whatever reason, no species merited this in the prothean cycle. Though the protheans were kept around as a proxy labor/research force. How do you not get this?

It goes to show that the Reapers, as they were in ME1, ME2, and most of ME3, were not compatible with the Catalyst at all. You're trying to rationalize that a race of malevolent, egotistical, demon-like machines who have nothing but contempt and hatred for all organic life somehow works for a being trying to preserve organic life. Which is just fucking hilarious.

"demon like" dude, they are machines, whatever else they claim, they are not lovecraftian outer gods, indoctrination has literally been prevented by just proper shielding. The Reapers are machines, but each machine has a personality of varying difference. There is no contradiction between Sovereign's bombast or Harbinger's diss tracks-they both at the end of the day serve the will of the Intelligence, whether they know it or not, because it...literally controls them.

) The Reapers show themselves to be evil in every situation, using barbaric and horrifying methods, and they openly despise organics and see them as a mistake.

Literally only Sovereign says this.

And pray tell, what makes Shepard special? Killing a Reaper? There's a gun made by a previous species that took out a Reaper. Charisma? Charismatic idiots are a dime-a-dozen.

You really just can't stop to accept the fact that this is just poorly-written slop.

Let me put in terms you can understand.

Leviathan: "So you found us, you are like super special, but that's not enough, guess we'll keep you around as a slave/toy, everyone else will die but we'll be fine"
Shepherd: "The reapers have literally just found your hiding place, they will come back, you can help us end the cycles, its in your self interest"
Leviathan" (does some mind reading)-"wow you really think you can do this, you might just have a chance"
Shepherd: "great, I actually deserve to feel confident because I'm putting my life on the line, you're hiding in a corner"
Leviathan: "but make no mistake, we're doing this to show we're still the baddest mfers around, not because we give a fuck about you"

I actually paid attention to the dialogue(I know hard right). Seems you did not.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

We know Asari and Turians were both turned into reaper troops. So...again what are you talking about? If you mean, like building a reaper, harvest then yes humans are focused on because ME had the bizarre and incorrect notion humans have high genetic diversity.

They're being turned into husk troops, not Reapers. Which is exactly what I meant. There is no preservation there, only slaughter and husks made of Turians and Asari.

Completely wrong.

The Heretics convinced themselves to worship "Nazara", a tiny minority of the total geth "population". Said Heretics left of their own accord, and can be destroyed or merged back with the regular geth in ME2.

At the end of ME2 Legion returns to the Perseus Veil and states 'the geth prepared for war"-Shepherd even makes a sarcastic comment about how Legion's warnings were believed whereas his were not.

The Geth join with the Reapers, because of the Quarians new weapon which has them on the verge of extermination. The Reapers extend an offer of assistance and the tide turns, Shepherd notes the Reapers have the geth 'completely under their control"-every Geth process and system is totally dominated by the reapers.

Once this control is broken by taking out the Reaper on Rannoch, the Geth can in two of the three outcomes fight the reapers and will state they outright reject a reaper offer(or attempt at hacking) on priority earth. That is the Geth need no special coaxing or pleading to fight the Reapers. They join with the Reapers once as a tiny minority which convinced themselves the reapers were define and left mainstream geth "society" and then the second time because the Quarians had their backs to the wall.

Not once, once do the Geth side with the Reapers of their own will when either not at risk of total genocide or as a tiny minority which reasoned themselves into reaper worship.

You're accounting of the Geth in the narrative is just totally incorrect.

Nazara never betrayed his Geth acolytes. Nor did the Reapers betray their new Geth allies, even though they betrayed Cerberus and their Batarian operatives.

Of course the Reapers have the Geth under their control. The Reaper is ORGANIZING them. Its mind is helping them fight as one and fight more effectively, hence why you had to disable the Reaper signal on Rannoch to shatter the Geth's unity and resolve. Otherwise the Quarians are dead meat.

"We help them ascend, so they can make way for new life"

"To solve this problem, we created an intelligence with the mandate to preserve life at any cost. As the intelligence evolved, it studied the development of civilizations. Its understanding grew until it found a solution. In that instant, it betrayed us. It chose our kind as the first Harvest. From our essence, the first Reaper was created. You call it Harbinger."

To repeat,

Step 1. Make Intelligence to study and correct the problem of synthetic genocides of organics
Step 2. In the course of this study(solving above problem), it must "preserve life'(inferred from the problem of synthetic revolt) at any cost.
Step 3. The means to do this are limited and "any cost" imposes no operative restriction.
Step 4. Harvest advanced species, that might make, have made, or have advanced Ais capable of wiping out organic life
Step 5. The Leviathans make the first "preserved" life.

Its astoundingly simple.

Life has been preserved, the study of the problem continues, mandate fulfilled. That is machine logic.

Wrong. Again, they only preserve a tiny fraction of organic life, and only in one way.

Meaning that they do not preserve life at any cost. ''At any cost'' would mean that they would employ multiple methods of preserving life. They could use cloning, preserving samples of species through hibernation, making Reapers out of them, etc..

Instead, most life is wiped out by the Reapers. A tiny fraction is preserved, only in one method, and only to increase the Reapers' power and numbers.

That is not ''preserving life at any cost''. That is ''wiping out most life and preserving a tiny fraction of it in a way that makes us stronger.''

It's like what if you asked someone to put the leftover food from a banquet into the fridge for preservation, and the fucker tosses out 90 percent of the food and saves the 10 percent that he actually likes.

Do you know how to read? It doesn't say "preserve all existing(or future evolved) life ever". Not once in the sentence is this remotely inferred. "at any cost" means that no method or means of preservation or the study and development of such means is forbidden.

You want it to say something it doesn't.

They only use one method of preserving life. Instead of preserving life ''at any cost'', which would entail using other means of preserving life if making a Reaper out of them isn't a viable option.

Literally, you suck at vocabulary. ''At any cost'' means you'd employ any and all means to achieve your goal, even if you have to use different methods if your one method doesn't work.

Like, seriously, that's how the Mass Effect choice system works. A Shepard who would preserve order ''at any cost'' could go from using diplomacy to talk down the enemy, or threatening/shooting the first loudmouth fucker who complains so that the rest would fall in line. That is what it means to accomplish a task ''at any cost''. As in, you're willing to do anything to accomplish something, even if you have to use methods that you're not used to.

The Reapers could easily preserve life-forms they don't Reaperize by other means. Cloning, hibernation, fuck, the Forerunners from Halo did it; they ''preserved life at all costs'' by wiping themselves and the Flood out by firing the Halo Rings, but the rest of the galaxy's races were preserved on the Ark, and once that big battle with the Flood was over, they seeded the galaxy with the life-forms they preserved, and allowed these species to grow in their place.

The fact that you keep sticking to this mantra that the Reapers ''preserve life at any cost'' falls apart when one realizes the Reapers kill all life save for a tiny fraction that they preserve only in one method, even though there's multiple methods available for ''preserving life.''

The Reapers only preserve a tiny fraction of life, in a way that would increase and cement their dominion over the galaxy. Every other organic species is annihilated, root and stem. Preserving life was never their goal; just annihilation and reproduction.

"Each cycle ends with the birth of a reaper"-meaning out of every cycle, one species is chosen to become a new sovereign class reaper. For whatever reason, no species merited this in the prothean cycle. Though the protheans were kept around as a proxy labor/research force. How do you not get this?

Nope. No Reapers were born from the Prothean cycle, and if the Reapers don't find a species that's genetically compatible with their methods of reproduction, they axe every form of advanced sapient life and wait for the primitives to grow up to see if the next batch has any viable options.

The Collectors are not preserved Protheans. They're just organic battle droids that would be no different from the Geth outside of appearance. They're basically husks in the same vein that Marauders and Banshees are.

"demon like" dude, they are machines, whatever else they claim, they are not lovecraftian outer gods, indoctrination has literally been prevented by just proper shielding. The Reapers are machines, but each machine has a personality of varying difference. There is no contradiction between Sovereign's bombast or Harbinger's diss tracks-they both at the end of the day serve the will of the Intelligence, whether they know it or not, because it...literally controls them.

They see themselves as gods, see other life-forms as shit, they possess the minds of lesser life forms and drive them to insanity, and their methods go from barbaric to gruesome in a way that's not necessary if all they want is to preserve life.

Sounds demon-like to me.

Literally only Sovereign says this.

And the actions of him and the other Reapers indicate that Nazara's opinions are the same as every Reaper.

Let me put in terms you can understand.

Leviathan: "So you found us, you are like super special, but that's not enough, guess we'll keep you around as a slave/toy, everyone else will die but we'll be fine"
Shepherd: "The reapers have literally just found your hiding place, they will come back, you can help us end the cycles, its in your self interest"
Leviathan" (does some mind reading)-"wow you really think you can do this, you might just have a chance"
Shepherd: "great, I actually deserve to feel confident because I'm putting my life on the line, you're hiding in a corner"
Leviathan: "but make no mistake, we're doing this to show we're still the baddest mfers around, not because we give a fuck about you"

I actually paid attention to the dialogue(I know hard right). Seems you did not.

The Leviathans can easily move to another hiding spot. Also, Shepard has no way of beating the Reapers yet, so them joining Shepard at the time is foolhardy at best. Logically, they'd just get massacred. If it wasn't for the magic asspull of the Crucible, which even Shepard doesn't know how it works, Shepard and the Leviathans would just become Reaper chow.

It would've made more sense if they join Shepard BECAUSE Shepard already has a fool-proof plan to beat the Reapers, so the Leviathans would wisely see that joining Shepard is the right bet, because unlike other cycles, he/she has a plan that's ready to go.

You have no answer for this:

Machine logic would not include egotism or malice. It would not include a god complex that the Reapers have. Machines doing their duty would not have huge egos or god complexes. They would just be machines doing their duty. Like the T-800 from Terminator. It has no malice, no hatred, no sense of ego or a god complex. It's just a killing machine, it does its duty. It doesn't hate Sarah Connor; it's just programmed to kill the shit out of her.

Instead, the Reapers have egos the size of the Death Star, they see themselves as gods, the perfect beings. Their methods for their work, not to mention their own words, display cruelty and barbarism towards the people they're supposed to preserve or harvest intact.

It just goes to show that everything you try to rationalize doesn't work, because the series wasn't made to rationalize the Catalyst ending; the Reapers are supposed to be evil, and you're supposed to stop them. That has been the consistent logic of the trilogy up until ME3's ending. And the fact that you have to retroactively claim that ''NO, THE REAPERS AREN'T EVIL, THEY'RE JUST BULLSHITTING'' goes to show how stupid your entire argument is.

Of course the Reapers aren't eternal. But they see themselves as eternal, because they think they're gods. Machines who are just doing their job do not have god complexes or huge egos. It gets in the way of the job, and it makes no sense for them to have such egos while they do such a job. Logically speaking, the Reapers having such huge egos to the point of having a god complex would only come about because they don't see themselves as working to preserve organic life, especially when they see organic life as a mistake and themselves as the perfect life forms.

Because you cannot have a reasonable explanation as to why machines working to preserve life would have the arrogance of Lucifer or a god complex like that of the Olympians. Literally, that serves no purpose outside of the story wanting to paint them as irredeemably evil. Yet you ignore that just to justify that laugh riot of an ending that drove away the fanbase of Mass Effect and forever relegated Bioware from a AAA studio to yesterday's news. Because it broke the logic of the story and reduced Mass Effect's story from ''the next Star Wars'' to ''SyFy slop that the fans would rather forget'.' The first two games and 99 percent of the third game are the former; the ending and the Leviathan DLC are the latter.

 

[Ishtar]

Nazara never betrayed his Geth acolytes. Nor did the Reapers betray their new Geth allies, even though they betrayed Cerberus and their Batarian operatives.

Of course the Reapers have the Geth under their control. The Reaper is ORGANIZING them. Its mind is helping them fight as one and fight more effectively, hence why you had to disable the Reaper signal on Rannoch to shatter the Geth's unity and resolve. Otherwise the Quarians are dead meat.

You'll notice you didn't actually address the point. The majority of the Geth have never sided with the reapers except under existential duress. The Reapers never actually get a chance to betray their Geth proxies. So...what point are you making again? That the reapers are pro Geth, rather than the Geth if made subservient are useful tools for various reasons?

Wrong. Again, they only preserve a tiny fraction of organic life, and only in one way.

Meaning that they do not preserve life at any cost. ''At any cost'' would mean that they would employ multiple methods of preserving life. They could use cloning, preserving samples of species through hibernation, making Reapers out of them, etc..

Instead, most life is wiped out by the Reapers. A tiny fraction is preserved, only in one method, and only to increase the Reapers' power and numbers.

That is not ''preserving life at any cost''. That is ''wiping out most life and preserving a tiny fraction of it in a way that makes us stronger.''

What makes you think that's all there is? EDI mentions the Reapers' knowledge being "connected to all of us' in a Synthesis ending. Reaper shells are also hollow btw. Even if you take the barest minimum, let's say 500,000 sapient species preserved in reaper form over a billion years-across a galaxy? With regular extinction rates? That's insanely good.

They only use one method of preserving life. Instead of preserving life ''at any cost'', which would entail using other means of preserving life if making a Reaper out of them isn't a viable option.

Literally, you suck at vocabulary. ''At any cost'' means you'd employ any and all means to achieve your goal, even if you have to use different methods if your one method doesn't work.

"at any cost" means "there is no restriction, ethical override or moral limit on what we must do to preserve life"-not a statement on the variety of the means of preservation. You're limited reading capacity shows up again.

The Collectors are not preserved Protheans. They're just organic battle droids that would be no different from the Geth outside of appearance. They're basically husks in the same vein that Marauders and Banshees are.

This isn't true, we know the Collectors do both genetic studies, and collect samples through trade with the Terminus Systems, or abduct it outright. They are used for scientific research, reaper construction, (likely monitoring genetic drift and other evolutionary byproducts), for the reapers.

They see themselves as gods, see other life-forms as shit, they possess the minds of lesser life forms and drive them to insanity, and their methods go from barbaric to gruesome in a way that's not necessary if all they want is to preserve life.

Sounds demon-like to me.

"The krogan see themselves as the best race ever, they drop asteroids on planets and think they're owed everything, they sound like supervillains to me"-or whatever. The Reapers' methods are barbaric and brutal, Javik notes this with voluminous repetition, but the purpose at the higher level is still preservation. Its an ugly process, but it is the process I describe.

The Leviathans can easily move to another hiding spot. Also, Shepard has no way of beating the Reapers yet, so them joining Shepard at the time is foolhardy at best. Logically, they'd just get massacred. If it wasn't for the magic asspull of the Crucible, which even Shepard doesn't know how it works, Shepard and the Leviathans would just become Reaper chow.

They literally already have done this, and shepherd notes that the reapers now are aware of their survival and won't ever let up.

It just goes to show that everything you try to rationalize doesn't work, because the series wasn't made to rationalize the Catalyst ending; the Reapers are supposed to be evil, and you're supposed to stop them. That has been the consistent logic of the trilogy up until ME3's ending. And the fact that you have to retroactively claim that ''NO, THE REAPERS AREN'T EVIL, THEY'RE JUST BULLSHITTING'' goes to show how stupid your entire argument is.

It is genuinely hilarious you say this and then praise the dark energy ending, where the reapers are trying to stop universal entropy. The Reapers were never intended to be cackling evil for its own sake. Nor are ME villains ever portrayed this way.

Saren-just wants to survive and damned himself in the process
TIM-same thing
The Reapers-totally evil, when none of the other main antagonists have been.

If there is any issue here, its that Bioware didn't give the Reapers' nuanced motivations until it was too late, which fine, that's a fair criticism. But it is abundantly clear they were never meant to be one dimensional villains acting evil for its own sake.

Also "you're supposed to stop them"-ME games have choice right? What about the choice to control them, or make them cooperative or just let the cycle go on.

You are genuinely mad the reapers didn't satisfy some emotional catharsis you wanted. Which fine, again fair criticism, and Bioware ought to have done more to douse such an expectation but the Reapers' not being evil is entirely consonant with Me's actual themes.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

You'll notice you didn't actually address the point. The majority of the Geth have never sided with the reapers except under existential duress. The Reapers never actually get a chance to betray their Geth proxies. So...what point are you making again? That the reapers are pro Geth, rather than the Geth if made subservient are useful tools for various reasons?

Of course the Reapers would wipe out the Geth who are against them. I'm talking about the Geth who supported them. Like those in ME1. Or the whole race in ME3. Also, the Reapers had multiple chances to betray their Geth proxies. Shit, they could've sent a fleet in to Rannoch to wipe out both the Quarians and Geth just as the battle heated up and both sides were totally committed. Neither side would be able to stop a surprise attack from a well-armed, well-rested Reaper fleet.

What makes you think that's all there is? EDI mentions the Reapers' knowledge being "connected to all of us' in a Synthesis ending. Reaper shells are also hollow btw. Even if you take the barest minimum, let's say 500,000 sapient species preserved in reaper form over a billion years-across a galaxy? With regular extinction rates? That's insanely good.

Everyone is connected in the Synthesis ending. Not just the Reapers. Also, again, that doesn't disprove the fact that most of the species the Reapers came across are dead. Not Reaperized, dead. We also spent time inside a Reaper shell in ME2, and there's no preserved bodies there. Just machine wires and Dragon's Teeth, along with some dead Cerberus scientists.

"at any cost" means "there is no restriction, ethical override or moral limit on what we must do to preserve life"-not a statement on the variety of the means of preservation. You're limited reading capacity shows up again.

Exactly. Which means less barbaric means of preserving life should've been considered. Not just ''oh, well, this species isn't viable to become a Reaper, time to genocide them all and wait for the next batch.''

This isn't true, we know the Collectors do both genetic studies, and collect samples through trade with the Terminus Systems, or abduct it outright. They are used for scientific research, reaper construction, (likely monitoring genetic drift and other evolutionary byproducts), for the reapers.

They never harvested other species. They performed experiments on samples of several species, but the only species they tried to harvest and make a Reaper out of was Humanity. Other species, they took a few samples of, experimented on them, then nothing. Also, if you notice, all the husks the Collectors sick on you are HUMAN husks, not like in ME3 where there's Batarian, Turian, Asari, Rachni, and Krogan husks being tossed in along with the human ones.

"The krogan see themselves as the best race ever, they drop asteroids on planets and think they're owed everything, they sound like supervillains to me"-or whatever. The Reapers' methods are barbaric and brutal, Javik notes this with voluminous repetition, but the purpose at the higher level is still preservation. Its an ugly process, but it is the process I describe.

That's because the Krogan are actually malevolent barbarians. If Wrex isn't around to wrangle the fuckers, it's implied Wreav would lead them down that path again once the Genophage is cured. The Krogans aren't out there to preserve all life, they're out there to fight and fuck, fuck and fight. They're like super-powered Dornishmen meets the Spartans and the Huns.

They literally already have done this, and shepherd notes that the reapers now are aware of their survival and won't ever let up.

How do you know that? The Reapers have already made a Reaper out of the Leviathans, and they're currently busy warring with the rest of the galaxy. The fact that the Reapers only sent one Reaper instead of an armada goes to show they barely gave a shit. Planets like Palaven and Thessia got more attention than them, even though the Leviathans are a bigger threat than the Asari or Turians.

It is genuinely hilarious you say this and then praise the dark energy ending, where the reapers are trying to stop universal entropy. The Reapers were never intended to be cackling evil for its own sake. Nor are ME villains ever portrayed this way.

I openly called the Dark Energy ending stupid. But it at least has some build-up with Haestrom's sun going tits-up in ME2, and it's explainable in that even evil beings would want to preserve their playground so they can keep killing and harvesting to reproduce their numbers. After all, no farmer would want his farm burned, and no man who enjoys shooting up the target range would want said range to catch fire.

They're evil beings who are working to preserve their playground, so that they can keep using it as a place where they can entertain their urge to purge, while also harvesting viable organics for reproduction.

It's like when Gaunter O'Dimm tells Geralt of Rivia everything he needs to do to ensure that Ciri succeeds in saving the world in Witcher 3. O'Dimm might be a demon, but he enjoys interacting with the world and its inhabitants, playing with their souls, or just hanging around with people he likes. He obviously doesn't want the world going kaput, even if he could survive it. That doesn't change the fact that Gaunter is pure fucking evil, he's still the same person who traps people in legalese and consumes their souls. It just means that he too will pull strings to help save the world for his own interests.

Saren-just wants to survive and damned himself in the process
TIM-same thing
The Reapers-totally evil, when none of the other main antagonists have been.

Actually, TIM wants to control the Reapers and have them ensure mankind's survival and dominance. Saren was originally going to use Sovereign to control the Geth and have them serve as the Council's cheap cannon fodder to get them to keep the humans in line, then he found out the truth.

The Reapers don't give a flying shit about everything else; all they want is to annihilate and MAYBE reproduce, if they find a species that's genetically compatible.

If there is any issue here, its that Bioware didn't give the Reapers' nuanced motivations until it was too late, which fine, that's a fair criticism. But it is abundantly clear they were never meant to be one dimensional villains acting evil for its own sake.

They were. Bioware made them laughably evil, with no redeeming qualities whatsoever. They're not like Darth Revan, who was trying to unite the galaxy against a bigger threat, or the True Sith, who believed that order can be achieved through the Dark Side. The Reapers were more evil than any Bioware villain save for the Sith Emperor. Trying to make them suddenly be about preserving organic life was such a laughably bad story choice, it sent the fanbase packing their bags and going home. The lore nuts stopped giving a shit, and any serious lore nut of Mass Effect sees the ending as a disgrace.

Also "you're supposed to stop them"-ME games have choice right? What about the choice to control them, or make them cooperative or just let the cycle go on.

I'm not protesting that. Hell, I can see an evil Shepard becoming a Reaper and keeping the cycle going, or a good Shepard who desires unity controlling them for the sake of galactic peace.

Still doesn't change the fact that they were pure fucking evil. In fact, by controlling them, it's an even bigger slap in Harbinger's face than if you just killed them all. Now they're enslaved by mankind and forced to actually preserve life in a way the organics would understand and cooperate with.

You are genuinely mad the reapers didn't satisfy some emotional catharsis you wanted. Which fine, again fair criticism, and Bioware ought to have done more to douse such an expectation but the Reapers' not being evil is entirely consonant with Me's actual themes.

Nope. I'm just laughing my ass off at how stupid the Catalyst ending is, and how funny it is you keep trying to justify it using phrases like ''machine logic'' when such logic wouldn't explain why the Reapers have arrogance that goes all the way up to a god complex or why their methods are ridiculously evil and barbaric when compared to say, Darth Malak. At least he had the good grace to purge the Tarisians quickly by orbital bombardment.

Also, you can easily get said catharsis against the Reapers by just skipping through the Starchild's dialogue and choosing the Destroy ending. Just pretend that the Starchild doesn't exist and move on with your choice; whether or not you want to be the big hero who avenges the galaxy against the Reapers, or to become the God Emperor of Reaperkind, or to become the new Space Messiah and give everyone a piece of your essence to unite them all in harmony and love.

Catharsis isn't the goal here; it's how the logic of the series was shattered by the Starchild ending. Which is kind of sad, since as I said, Mass Effect was a budding series that was shaping up to be like Star Wars; if it had just a decent ending, we'd be seeing sequels, movies, and more media coming out of it, instead of the fanbase for it packing their bags and moving for greener pastures.

And therein lies the source of my misgivings. Another promising franchise, killed because the writers made a bad move and didn't want to make up for it. They decided to double-down on their errors and drove away all goodwill, a foreboding sign of things to come. When we saw it happen in 2012, we didn't realize that the same thing would happen to other franchises as well, from Halo, to Star Wars, among other things.

There's a reason Japanese media sells so well. They give the fans what they want, as opposed to western devs who somehow got it into their minds that pissing off the fans is a good thing.