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I cannot believe we're far enough removed from ME2 that people are defending the Human Reaper
Short of the Star Child that's literally the stupidest thing that happened in the series, and served as a culmination of us spending ME2's main quest doing fuck all instead of actually figuring out how to fight the Reapers.
It directly contributed to ME3 being such a clusterfuck.
While doing the main quests in ME2, there are several references to stars dying too quickly and other life-threatening astrophysical phenomena. The head writers changed between 2 and 3, from Drew Karpyshyn to Mac Walters (who, to his credit, is excellent at character writing... but not writing plot or stories).

I don't think you are wrong that I was so dissatisfied with ME3 that ME2 looks great in retrospect.
 
The Geth only make peace if you do everything right. They will destroy the quarians or be destroyed unless you do all the necessary legwork.
Which means talking down the Catalyst and getting the Reapers to surrender conventionally, without a fully-powered Crucible, should be an option if we do things right and the Geth ride with the Quarians.

EDI is less than 5 years old. And will outlive all of her organic companions assuming she isn’t destroyed.
No shit. But that doesn't erase the fact that she's butt-buddies with her mortal pal Joker.

Her morals, her understanding of the universe, her goals will change.
Highly questionable. More likely is that she will base her morals and understanding of the universe on what her human handlers tell her.

The catalyst’s goal is to preserve life “at any cost”.
Which means that every Reaper cycle, they failed it 98%.

So to put it in steps.

-preserve life at any cost
-machines will outcompete organics simply because they can live forever
Organics will always try to make machines to improve their lives
Machines do not have the same existential angst organics do. They know why they exist. This means they do not need organics as much as organics may need them.
Machines do not need the same resources organics do.
Organic fear and machine calculus(or resentment) makes war inevitable.
Eventually, machines will wipe out all organics. Either due to impeccable logic or some sort of hatred borne of being oppressed(or feeling that way.
Again, organic civilizations will always create machines.

The catalyst has been observing this process for a billion years. EDI and the Geth in the long run don’t matter.

The game doesn’t explain this as well as it should, but the logic of the catalyst can perfectly account for EDI and the Geth, that being that over very long time scales they either turn on organics or simply do not need them.

The Geth notably only did not exterminate the quarians because they didn’t know what the consequences would be at the end of the morning war.
You seem to have forgotten our good friends, the Protheans.

The Protheans did not create AIs of any sort. They have VIs, but they eradicated all AIs, so wiping them out was completely illogical, since the Protheans are an advanced spacefaring race that decided all AIs must die. When Javik sees Legion, there's the memetic line from him as a response: ''Throw it out of the airlock, commander.''

So by the Catalyst's own logic, the Reapers should've hailed the Protheans as the perfect race; they're all biotic, they hate AIs, they mastered Reaper tech from the Mass Relays, they dominated the galaxy, the Reapers should've decided to spare the Protheans and let them continue ruling the galaxy, because before the Reapers invaded, the Protheans waged what was known as the ''Metacon War'', where they were wiping out AIs left and right and were on the verge of successfully eradicating all AI in the galaxy forever. Yet the Catalyst and the Reapers still wiped them out. Why?

This is because that whole logic of the Catalyst was hastily slapped on to replace the dark energy ending that was the original ending. Casey Hudson then stole the ending from Deus Ex after replacing the original intended ending by Drew Karpyshyn, which was alluded to in ME2 when Haestrom's star was going nova fast. Dark Energy pollution was making it worse, but apparently, a human-Reaper would've solved the problem due to humanity's genetic diversity or something, and the final choice would be to let Harbinger assimilate the humans into a Reaper to save the rest of the galaxy, or find another way to solve the crisis.

Which, I mean, you can just have enough humans bite the bullet and sacrifice themselves for the greater good, you don't need to assimilate the whole race. A few small colonies already made a baby-reaper, a few worlds' worth of human sacrifices would've filled the quota to make a human-Reaper and fix this problem.

Between the two, the latter ending made more sense. I mean, the Dark Energy/Human Reaper ending is still bad, but it makes more sense than the Reapers wiping out organics to save the organics from AI, especially when the last race they wiped out, the Protheans, declared a Fatwa on all AIs and eradicated them whenever they popped up. During the Metacon War, the Protheans were on the verge of wiping out the AI menace forever. Then the Reapers showed up and fucked that up. The Protheans were on the verge of solving the problem that the Reapers and the Catalyst were trying to solve, and yet they wiped out the Protheans anyways, which goes to show that the reasoning of the Catalyst was hastily slapped-on and was not the original ending.

Drew Karpyshyn really was the secret to good Bioware writing. Without him, these people can't even double-check their lore to see if their ending logically matches up with what they wrote. Even the shit parts of his lore are better than what they write on their own without him.
 
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You mention the protheans and forget Javik talks about this the entire game. He notes tells Shepherd that synthetics will inevitably outcompete organics, that he and shepherd are less alien to each other than the Geth are to them both, and that conflict between the two is driven by fundamental differences in being and psychology.

He gets notably very agitated and upset when Legion is on the ship and tells shepherd about the Metacon war-his people were fighting against AI, and the Zha’til conflict where a species like the quarians got hijacked by their machines taking their bodies.

So the protheans regularly interacted with AIs and aliens that built them. If the protheans had won against the Metacon it would have just kicked the problem down the road. The point you make about the protheans fighting AI enhances the catalyst’s argument. That being that conflict is inevitable. The protheans winning one war changes this not one bit.

As for the dark energy ending, did you forget it had the stupid part about the reapers trying to slow down universal entropy? The reapers, operating in one galaxy, and also humans were super special and could maybe save the universe.

It was honestly far far worse than the worst caricature of the ending we got.

The Catalyst’s directive is not about saving a civilization or a species, much less an individual. It is ensuring that organic life(and organic sapient life) isn’t totally purged one day in some sort of Skynet/40K men of iron style apocalypse.

Something its creators were terrified would happen, and it considers inevitable unless radical actions are taken.
 
You mention the protheans and forget Javik talks about this the entire game. He notes tells Shepherd that synthetics will inevitably outcompete organics, that he and shepherd are less alien to each other than the Geth are to them both, and that conflict between the two is driven by fundamental differences in being and psychology.
Javik basically said that during the Metacon War, the Protheans were on the cusp of winning, and their intentions included wiping out all synthetics in the galaxy, before the Reapers fucked them over.

You didn't forget that, did you? Not only that Protheans react to synthetics the same way a vampire reacts to garlic, but that the Protheans declared war on all synthetic life and were about to wipe them all out for good. They were a galactic civilization that dominated the galaxy, they had a zero-toleration policy towards all synthetics, and they were about to genocide all synthetics in the galaxy during the Metacon War, a war which they were winning, since Javik said ''we were turning the tide'', meaning that before the Reapers fucked everyone in the ass, the Protheans were the winning side.

So the protheans regularly interacted with AIs and aliens that built them. If the protheans had won against the Metacon it would have just kicked the problem down the road. The point you make about the protheans fighting AI enhances the catalyst’s argument. That being that conflict is inevitable. The protheans winning one war changes this not one bit.
All the Reapers do is kick the can down the road; they leave no warnings against people building AIs. So of course, people make AIs and the Reapers are forced to kill them. Meanwhile, not only were the Protheans taking over the entire galaxy, they were killing AIs on the spot whenever they found them. So the Protheans were solving the problem that the Reapers couldn't. Unlike the Reapers, the Protheans will rock up to your place and tell you not to build AIs, and if you did, they whooped your ass.

As for the dark energy ending, did you forget it had the stupid part about the reapers trying to slow down universal entropy? The reapers, operating in one galaxy, and also humans were super special and could maybe save the universe.
That was the point of the series-that humans were special. Even though they were newcomers, even though they were weaker than the Krogans, less biotically adept than the Asari, not as smart as the Salarians, not as organized as the Turians and Geth, they still had something to offer.

Yes, I acknowledge it was stupid, but the plot Casey Hudson agreed to was even stupider.

It was honestly far far worse than the worst caricature of the ending we got.

The Catalyst’s directive is not about saving a civilization or a species, much less an individual. It is ensuring that organic life(and organic sapient life) isn’t totally purged one day in some sort of Skynet/40K men of iron style apocalypse.

Something its creators were terrified would happen, and it considers inevitable unless radical actions are taken.
Except the Protheans were solving that problem.

-They were taking over the entire galaxy and assimilating or destroying all civilizations they came across, forcing them all to become Protheans.
-They had a zero-tolerance policy towards all synthetics.
-They were winning the war against synthetic life and were on the cusp of wiping them out forever.

The results of that, if the Reapers left the Protheans alone, would've been a galactic Prothean Empire where everyone is taught not to make AIs because Protheans universally believed that AIs were bad and should be killed on sight. Meaning that the doom the Catalyst foresaw would never happen with the Protheans in charge. Granted they'd execute EDI and the Geth, but there'd be no threat of rogue AI revolutions under the Prothean regime, so wiping them out was stupid. All the Reapers did was destroy the solution to the problems they faced.

Which again, goes to show how stupid the Catalyst is, and how slipshod the ending was, considering that it blows a Citadel-sized plothole into the lore given how the Protheans operated and how they eradicated AIs everywhere they went. The Reapers take no preventative measures to ensure that the next cycle won't build AIs, but the Protheans do, because their MO is to literally take control of every civilization and kill all AIs on the spot.

TL;DR, the Protheans were the answer to the Catalyst's prayers, and he had the Reapers kill them anyways. Which goes to show that this whole bullshit about the Reapers killing organics so they don't make synthetics that kill them was not the original ending and was hastily slapped-on without any care towards the greater lore of the series.
 
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Javik basically said that during the Metacon War, the Protheans were on the cusp of winning, and their intentions included wiping out all synthetics in the galaxy, before the Reapers fucked them over.

You didn't forget that, did you? Not only that Protheans react to synthetics the same way a vampire reacts to garlic, but that the Protheans declared war on all synthetic life and were about to wipe them all out for good.
Eh no? The Metacon were such a serious threat it was why the Protheans went about inducting slave races into the empire. A war the protheans were winning, but by no means was this the end of AI. Just the end of one synthetic civilization.

All the Reapers do is kick the can down the road; they leave no warnings against people building AIs. So of course, people make AIs and the Reapers are forced to kill them.
I think you're misunderstanding how the cycles work? The Catalyst/star child is both harvesting advanced life and studying the development of AI in each cycle. The goal is not to get rid of AI once, but to solve the perennial problem of AI rebellions entirely. Killing all AI just delays a final resolution as Starchild tells Shepherd.

The results of that, if the Reapers left the Protheans alone, would've been a galactic Prothean Empire where everyone is taught not to make AIs because Protheans universally believed that AIs were bad and should be killed on sight. Meaning that the doom the Catalyst foresaw would never happen with the Protheans in charge. Granted they'd execute EDI and the Geth, but there'd be no threat of rogue AI revolutions under the Prothean regime, so wiping them out was stupid. All the Reapers did was destroy the solution to the problems they faced.
The Protheans were...one cycle out of 20,000 and no different in the eyes of the Catalyst/reapers. A general AI rebellion is inevitable when a certain level of development is reached, and there is no indication the protheans banned AI, we see they have fully interactive VIs. Also Javik is...a poor source, given he was born and lived at the tail end of the Reapers' harvest.

TL;DR, the Protheans were the answer to the Catalyst's prayers, and he had the Reapers kill them anyways. Which goes to show that this whole bullshit about the Reapers killing organics so they don't make synthetics that kill them was not the original ending and was hastily slapped-on without any care towards the greater lore of the series.
The Protheans were engaging an AI civilization and were so desperate they were forced to conscript entire species into the empire, and then mold them as soldiers. You seem to think they were pursuing some sort of Butlerian Jihad, the games give no indication of this. You're also forgetting the Catalyst has been around a billion years.

There's nothing to debate, the series is trash.
You usually have good takes, but I'd say you're wrong here.
 
Eh no? The Metacon were such a serious threat it was why the Protheans went about inducting slave races into the empire. A war the protheans were winning, but by no means was this the end of AI. Just the end of one synthetic civilization.
False. The Protheans at this point dominated the entire galaxy, as they did before the Reapers showed up. The war was almost won, and had it been won, the Prothean regime would've consolidated their hold on the galaxy.

Also, again, this shows that the Protheans actually have a solution to the Reapers' problems; go up to each civilization and force them to become Prothean, which incidentally makes them anti-AI by default, because no Prothean was allowed to embrace AIs.

I think you're misunderstanding how the cycles work? The Catalyst/star child is both harvesting advanced life and studying the development of AI in each cycle. The goal is not to get rid of AI once, but to solve the perennial problem of AI rebellions entirely. Killing all AI just delays a final resolution as Starchild tells Shepherd.
Except they do nothing to solve the problem of AI rebellions. Nothing the Reapers do solves the problem; all they do is harvest and kill off sapient species. Meanwhile, the Protheans were wiping out sapient AIs and forcing all organics into becoming anti-AI Protheans. Which meant they had a permanent solution to the AI problem.

The Protheans were...one cycle out of 20,000 and no different in the eyes of the Catalyst/reapers. A general AI rebellion is inevitable when a certain level of development is reached, and there is no indication the protheans banned AI, we see they have fully interactive VIs. Also Javik is...a poor source, given he was born and lived at the tail end of the Reapers' harvest.
Nothing Javik says is disproven by the game. Also, the Catalyst is a poor source given that he does nothing to solve the problem of AI rebellions, and his words are openly disproven by EDI and the Geth depending on the player's choices. Which again, goes to show that the Catalyst was something slapped-on at the end.

The Protheans were engaging an AI civilization and were so desperate they were forced to conscript entire species into the empire, and then mold them as soldiers. You seem to think they were pursuing some sort of Butlerian Jihad, the games give no indication of this. You're also forgetting the Catalyst has been around a billion years.
The Protheans dominated the entire galaxy. Also, they were conscripting all species into their empire regardless of whether or not there were AI rebellions. They were going to do that anyways; wiping out AIs is just a bonus.

Defending the Catalyst's logic by just saying that he's older doesn't do anything. If anything, it just shows that he was a poorly-written character. SWTOR's Sith Emperor is older than most Force-users in the game. It doesn't mean he was right about the Force, since canonically, the Light Side is the right choice. In the same vein, nothing the Catalyst does ever solves the problem he's trying to solve.

The general malice the Reapers have for sapient life goes to show that none of his intentions were going to be followed by the Reapers anyways. They do nothing to study AI rebellions, all they do is just harvest and kill, and they enjoy what they do. They don't give a flying fuck about solving AI rebellion problems. They only want to harvest and kill, and they couldn't give less of a shit about everything else.
 
False. The Protheans at this point dominated the entire galaxy, as they did before the Reapers showed up. The war was almost won, and had it been won, the Prothean regime would've consolidated their hold on the galaxy.
The reapers intervened just as the tide was turning. (This would have been 400 years before Javik was born btw).

Javik also mentions the Zha and Zha'til and implies the Ais took over the bodies of their organic creators.

Except they do nothing to solve the problem of AI rebellions. Nothing the Reapers do solves the problem; all they do is harvest and kill off sapient species. Meanwhile, the Protheans were wiping out sapient AIs and forcing all organics into becoming anti-AI Protheans. Which meant they had a permanent solution to the AI problem.
The Leviathan DLC explains why this is false. The Intelligence studies the development of civiizations, and then conducts the harvest. Its always gathering data, in fact that's why it presents the options it does to Shepherd.

Nothing Javik says is disproven by the game. Also, the Catalyst is a poor source given that he does nothing to solve the problem of AI rebellions, and his words are openly disproven by EDI and the Geth depending on the player's choices. Which again, goes to show that the Catalyst was something slapped-on at the end.
Javik is flat out wrong about EDI, considering her unnatural and incapable of evolution(meaning just change).

The Protheans dominated the entire galaxy. Also, they were conscripting all species into their empire regardless of whether or not there were AI rebellions. They were going to do that anyways; wiping out AIs is just a bonus.
The Protheans wipe out the Metacon and then...what? Eventually they or their subject species are going to create Ais again, because Ais make life easier, more efficient, and do things Protheans don't want to do. The Ais become sapient and the cycle repeats. We have zero evidence the protheans had some sort of workaround to this, like 40K servitors or something.

That's the point-the problem of AI conflict with organics is inevitable insofar as sapient life wishes to make their own lives better.
 
The reapers intervened just as the tide was turning. (This would have been 400 years before Javik was born btw).

Javik also mentions the Zha and Zha'til and implies the Ais took over the bodies of their organic creators.
The Reapers invaded as the Protheans were the dominant race in the galaxy. Try again.

Also, did you forget that the Protheans can pass down memories with psychic clarity?

The Leviathan DLC explains why this is false. The Intelligence studies the development of civiizations, and then conducts the harvest. Its always gathering data, in fact that's why it presents the options it does to Shepherd.
Except it doesn't explain jack shit why Shepard gets the option and the Protheans didn't. If anything, Shepard's cycle is more in danger of AI rebellions than the Protheans, given that they aren't as uniform as the Protheans and can easily have another culture or group like the Quarians or Cerberus create AIs.

For all you know, down the road after Shepard uses the Crucible, the Batarians could create AIs that would one day conquer the galaxy and destroy all life.

Javik is flat out wrong about EDI, considering her unnatural and incapable of evolution(meaning just change).
And the Catalyst is flat out wrong about the Protheans, thinking that AI rebellions can happen in an Empire so homogeneous that they had a universal hate for AIs.

The Protheans wipe out the Metacon and then...what? Eventually they or their subject species are going to create Ais again, because Ais make life easier, more efficient, and do things Protheans don't want to do. The Ais become sapient and the cycle repeats. We have zero evidence the protheans had some sort of workaround to this, like 40K servitors or something.

That's the point-the problem of AI conflict with organics is inevitable insofar as sapient life wishes to make their own lives better.
Nope. The Protheans basically made their civilization AI free, and there's no indication they would've changed their minds, especially since their tech was biotic-based, not AI-based. Biotics require an organic component to operate. And they were indoctrinating all races in the galaxy to be like them or die, and becoming like them means hating AI. Any idiot who would've entertained the idea of making AIs would be dead.

The Protheans are all uniform; they force everyone to agree with their ideology, and they pass down memories from one generation to another through their psychic abilities and devices, which means that the prejudices of one generation will pass down to another. The generation of Protheans who saw the Zha'Til assimilate the Zha, who developed an intense hatred for AIs because of that experience, will pass down their experiences from one generation of Protheans to the next, and their descendants will do the same, ensuring a universal hatred for AI within their ranks. It's telling that Javik was born long after the Metacon War, but his memories of it are clear, since his memories of it were passed to him by his forebears through their technology. And his prejudice towards AI are still strong as a result.
 
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The Reapers invaded as the Protheans were the dominant race in the galaxy. Try again.
“we were turning the tide, then we learned machines surpassed us long ago.”

Except it doesn't explain jack shit why Shepard gets the option and the Protheans didn't. If anything, Shepard's cycle is more in danger of AI rebellions than the Protheans, given that they aren't as uniform as the Protheans and can easily have another culture or group like the Quarians or Cerberus create AIs.
Who’s to say the option wasn’t considered? Shepherd’s cycle is anomalous. The prothean cycle was pretty routine except for the prothean scientists sabotaging the keepers.

Nope. The Protheans basically made their civilization AI free, and there's no indication they would've changed their minds, especially since their tech was biotic-based, not AI-based. Biotics require an organic component to operate. And they were indoctrinating all races in the galaxy to be like them or die, and becoming like them means hating AI. Any idiot who would've entertained the idea of making AIs would be dead.
Okay please cite a source. You’re just making things up now.
 
“we were turning the tide, then we learned machines surpassed us long ago.”
He was talking about the Reapers being way above the Protheans' level. Stop taking quotes out of context.

Who’s to say the option wasn’t considered? Shepherd’s cycle is anomalous. The prothean cycle was pretty routine except for the prothean scientists sabotaging the keepers.
Except they were not. Shepard's cycle had a weak ban on AI that groups like the Quarians and Cerberus were circumventing. Hell, at one point in ME1, you meet a rogue AI created by some criminal in the Citadel. On the other hand, the Protheans had a galactic, fascist, totalitarian state that was brainwashing everyone to become AI-hating Protheans, and they were about to wipe out the AI menace once and for all before the Reapers appeared. If anything, the latter would be less susceptible to AI subversion.

So the Catalyst offering Shepard the choice while wiping out the Protheans goes to show that it doesn't make sense, because the original ending wasn't about AI rebellions but about Dark Energy pollution and humanity being potentially sacrificed to solve it.

Okay please cite a source. You’re just making things up now.
The source is the fucking game itself. Javik in ME3 clearly stated that the Protheans killed AI on the spot, and we saw Javik with a memory shard which he describes as passing down memories from one Prothean to another, and it was a common technological artifact. They also relied on biotics and senses to feel things out instead of relying on AIs. And the lore made it clear that the Protheans indoctrinated people into their ranks-hence why Liara's research noted that they were the only major spacefaring race in their time. When Liara talks to Javik about it, Javik responds that the Protheans assimilated everyone into their embrace.
 
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The source is the fucking game itself. Javik in ME3 clearly stated that the Protheans killed AI on the spot, and we saw Javik with a memory shard which he describes as passing down memories from one Prothean to another, and it was a common technological artifact.
"Passed down from soldier to soldier" the implication being it doesn't really show much more than the individual memories of...individuals. Its not a database dude.

The source is the fucking game itself. Javik in ME3 clearly stated that the Protheans killed AI on the spot,
Literally no he doesn't.

Except they were not. Shepard's cycle had a weak ban on AI that groups like the Quarians and Cerberus were circumventing. Hell, at one point in ME1, you meet a rogue AI created by some criminal in the Citadel. One contrast, the Protheans had a galactic, fascist, totalitarian state that was brainwashing everyone to become AI-hating Protheans, and they were about to wipe out the AI menace once and for all before the Reapers appeared. If anything, the latter would be less susceptible to AI subversion.
You're making a lot of massive leaps from...maybe one or two sentences in game here. The Metacon war is from what I can remember referenced once by Javik, along with the forcible incorporation stuff. Javik nowhere says they were waging a Butlerian Jihad. Like at all.

You are reading his present disdain about AI into some all encompassing policy the game never implies existed.
 
I picked the Control ending, which I think is seen as the worst one? Every ending has extreme downsides, and ME3 had poor writing all the way though, so debating endings seems like a losing game.

But to me, Control was the least destructive to everyone's way of life. (My) Shepard was a paragon of virtue and a legendary hero who was known for making the right calls, who else could handle the immense power of the Reapers? You then become a god and watch over the galaxy. I always loved the Illusive Man, even though he became a lot more stupid and cartoonish in 3, but he had a bit of a point in trying to control the Reapers. It brings an end to the cycle and gives the galaxy the biggest chance of survival. Infinite tech, a choice to embrace the new way of life, and protection from an even greater threat. Shepard now has the power to end the Reaper cycle AND the ability to protect all life the right way, unlike the Reapers' short-sighted plan. The one downside to Control seems to be the possibility that Shepard will one day go rogue and lose his humanity, but this is so far fetched to me and antithetical to the game it is almost headcanon.

Synthesis seemed unethical, forcing a massive change on the entire galaxy. It also seemed like the "right" choice the writers were trying to push on you, which made me like it less. My spite for them was at an all time high by the time I was in the RGB room.

Destruction is the perfect choice for a crayon-eating Soldier class Shepard. Jokes aside, Destruction is the most devastating to the galaxy, you stop the Reapers but isolate everyone and destroy the mass relays, which were built by the very beings you just destroyed. I cannot imagine the fractured galaxy you left behind EVER building the mass relays again. You strand the Krogans on Earth, and stop billions from ever going home again. Mission Complete.

2 is my favorite game and it now exists in a tiny bubble, unaffected by the greater plot until the absolute ending. Therefore it is the least tainted by 3's bad ending.
 
"Passed down from soldier to soldier" the implication being it doesn't really show much more than the individual memories of...individuals. Its not a database dude.
Accumulated through the ages. So instead of a database that says "AI=BAD" you get the memories of some soldier who lost his friends during the war with AI. Much more effective in making people hate AI.

Literally no he doesn't.
Yes he does. Standard Prothean doctrine towards all AI was to execute them. They saw what the Zha'Til did to the Zha, and declared all AI their enemy, waging the Metacon War against them. During the time when they ruled the galaxy, they were on the cusp of total victory before the Reapers appeared.

You're making a lot of massive leaps from...maybe one or two sentences in game here. The Metacon war is from what I can remember referenced once by Javik, along with the forcible incorporation stuff. Javik nowhere says they were waging a Butlerian Jihad. Like at all.
You're the one making massive leaps of logic based on some lines about the Reapers studying or observing AI. Again, the only thing we know about AIs during the Prothean era was that the Protheans hated them, and were about to exterminate them. Oh, and they absorbed every other organic race in sight into their Empire, making them all Protheans.

The only time we saw a break in their way of thinking was when the Reapers invaded and some sought to control them instead of destroying them, and that was due to Reaper Indoctrination. Literally, it took Reaper Indoctrination to make some Protheans think AI was worth sparing. Prior to that, during the Metacon War, they were just killing AI.

Meanwhile, Shepard's cycle, which has a weak AI ban that criminals and non-Council groups like the Quarians and Cerberus were breaking, somehow gets approval by the Catalyst even though he had the Reapers wipe out the Protheans. Which goes to show that preventing AI rebellions was never their goal.

Prothean lore does not match up to the ending. Everyone else wrote lore that did not build up to the ending that Casey Hudson and Mac Walters made on their own. The only ending that was being built up by previous games was the Dark Energy Pollution ending that Drew Karpyshyn was building up to, because we saw in Haestrom how the sun was expiring faster than usual.

The Reapers throughout the games never expressed any desire to stop the battle between organic and synthetic life; in fact, they thought it was inevitable and firmly planted their flag on the pro-AI camp, working with the Geth in ME1, and offering the Geth in ME3 support in exchange for having the Geth swearing allegiance to them, with the eventual goal of having the Geth download to a Dyson Sphere or a Reaper shell.

The general malice with which the Reapers treat organics goes to show that they don't give a shit about them. Whenever you talked with Reapers, they don't warn you of the dangers of AI. They just act like conceited bastards, seeing themselves as gods and you as bugs. They see themselves as perfect machine life, while seeing all organic life as an accident, good only for harvesting like crops. They couldn't care less whether or not an organic race makes synthetics or not; they're getting harvested when the time comes, end of story.

Instead of trying to stop organics from destroying themselves with synthetics, the Reapers wouldn't give a shit if that happens, and history shows that they would even support the AIs in their struggle against organics, even if the Reapers saw the lesser AIs as pathetic insults. In ME1, Saren explains that Sovereign saw the Geth as beneath him, acting as if their pitiful devotions were an insult......but Sovereign was willing to let them live, unlike the organics whom he sought to destroy. Same MO with Harbinger; he supported the Geth in ME3 while the rest of the Reaper fleet ran off to purge the galaxy of organics. The Reapers saw the Geth as pathetic losers, but they were willing to tolerate the Geth, unlike the organics whom they killed on sight.

To make your case palatable, you have to A) ignore Prothean history, B) ignore the Reapers' repeated episodes of cooperation with renegade synthetics in the main games, and C) act as if a race of demonic machine-gods who have expressed nothing but malice and hate towards all organics are somehow trying to save them from their own synthetic creations. None of that makes any fucking sense, whatsoever. They don't even leave any warnings to organics about how making sapient AI is bad; unlike the Protheans, who will literally rock up to your crib, take over your world, and force you to become AI-hating Protheans.
 
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Accumulated through the ages. So instead of a database that says "AI=BAD" you get the memories of some soldier who lost his friends during the war with AI. Much more effective in making people hate AI.
It doesn't say this, it provides memories and sensations of things experienced. Javik won't even touch it because it re opens his memory of him killing his unit. You are imputting something that isn't there.

Yes he does. Standard Prothean doctrine towards all AI was to execute them. They saw what the Zha'Til did to the Zha, and declared all AI their enemy, waging the Metacon War against them. During the time when they ruled the galaxy, they were on the cusp of total victory before the Reapers appeared.
No, it wasn't. All we know is the protheans were an aggressive empire, forcibly incorporated other species to fight an AI, and spent 400 years being thrashed by the reapers just as they were winning. Javik never says AIs were illegal, or anything remotely of the sort.

You're the one making massive leaps of logic based on some lines about the Reapers studying or observing AI. Again, the only thing we know about AIs during the Prothean era was that the Protheans hated them, and were about to exterminate them. Oh, and they absorbed every other organic race in sight into their Empire, making them all Protheans.
The Protheans were performing the same cyclical beats the Reapers were created for in the first place dude. Ais rise up, organics fight them, risk of total destruction unless the reapers intervene.

Prothean lore does not match up to the ending. Everyone else wrote lore that did not build up to the ending that Casey Hudson and Mac Walters made on their own. The only ending that was being built up by previous games was the Dark Energy Pollution ending that Drew Karpyshyn was building up to, because we saw in Haestrom how the sun was expiring faster than usual.
The Dark Energy ending was completely inconsistent with the actual scale of the series. It was pretty much dropped with nary a hint by the end of Act 2 and only a few one off references in ME2. (It wasn't a good idea).

To make your case palatable, you have to A) ignore Prothean history, B) ignore the Reapers' repeated episodes of cooperation with renegade synthetics in the main games, and C) act as if a race of demonic machine-gods who have expressed nothing but malice and hate towards all organics are somehow trying to save them from their own synthetic creations. None of that makes any fucking sense, whatsoever. They don't even leave any warnings to organics about how making sapient AI is bad; unlike the Protheans, who will literally rock up to your crib, take over your world, and force you to become AI-hating Protheans.
Let me make this as simple as possible.

1. Before the cycles, the Leviathans were the first sapient race in the galaxy, and by far the most powerful. They received tribute from lesser races, and basically basked as god squids. These lesser races made Ais that wiped them out, denying the Leviathans tribute.
2. Miffed by their slaves self destructing, the Leviathans created the Intelligence(starchild) to understand why this was happening and find a permanent solution to the problem, part of its mandate being the "preservation of life at any cost".
3. Said Intelligence followed the letter of its programming and harvested the Leviathans, creating the first reapers
4. Throughout the next billion years, the Intelligence created and moved around the mass relays, allowing interstellar civilization to develop, reach a certain level, and then be harvested, (with the likely criteria for harvest probably being something like "AI revolt or overtake imminent").
5. Most cycles followed a standard pattern of the keepers sending the signal, reapers take Citadel, harvest begins.
6. Shepherd's cycle is unique, because Shepherd delayed the harvest multiple times AND successfully managed to construct the Crucible device.
7. This demonstrates to Star Child that the need for this billion year experiment is over, and a new set of solutions are open-one destruction, two control, three synthesis, and four just redoing it again.

The Reapers are ultimately not the ultimate antagonists of the series, they are tools of a greater entity pursuing its own goals.

You are presuming the Reapers are interested in the stopgap solution of any one civilization, they are not. You are presuming the Reapers are acting out of malice, (they really are not). What they are doing is following a billion year old AI's programming.

The goal of Starchild is either fulfilled when Shepherd takes it place, synthesizes organic and synthetic life, or lets the process repeat-in Destroy and Refusal. The Starchild is not some final boss Shepherd has to overcome, and the reapers are ultimately not "bad guys".
 
It doesn't say this, it provides memories and sensations of things experienced. Javik won't even touch it because it re opens his memory of him killing his unit. You are imputting something that isn't there.
And such trinkets are common among the Protheans. They use such things to pass down memories. Not just that, but their beacons back in ME1 did the same.

Which explains why Javik has such a clear memory of the Metacon War. His people probably passed it down to him through one such device.

No, it wasn't. All we know is the protheans were an aggressive empire, forcibly incorporated other species to fight an AI, and spent 400 years being thrashed by the reapers just as they were winning. Javik never says AIs were illegal, or anything remotely of the sort.
Uh, no, he basically says that they waged war against the machines during the Metacon War. It basically means that they were waging war against AI life; and the fact that they lasted 400 years against the Reapers makes them even better than the cycle Shepard is from, where it seems that they won't even last one year without the Hail Mary play that was the Crucible.

The Protheans were performing the same cyclical beats the Reapers were created for in the first place dude. Ais rise up, organics fight them, risk of total destruction unless the reapers intervene.
False. The Protheans were uniting all organics against AIs. And had the Reapers not intervened, it would've worked.

The Dark Energy ending was completely inconsistent with the actual scale of the series. It was pretty much dropped with nary a hint by the end of Act 2 and only a few one off references in ME2. (It wasn't a good idea).
The Catalyst ending was even more inconsistent, especially since all indications showed that the Reapers don't have an ulterior motive outside of petty spite towards organics and some hints of reproduction. They don't give a shit if organics make AIs that rebel against them; they welcome such an occurrence and even support the AIs against their organic overlords, in both ME1 and ME3.

1. Before the cycles, the Leviathans were the first sapient race in the galaxy, and by far the most powerful. They received tribute from lesser races, and basically basked as god squids. These lesser races made Ais that wiped them out, denying the Leviathans tribute.
2. Miffed by their slaves self destructing, the Leviathans created the Intelligence(starchild) to understand why this was happening and find a permanent solution to the problem, part of its mandate being the "preservation of life at any cost".
3. Said Intelligence followed the letter of its programming and harvested the Leviathans, creating the first reapers
The letter of its programming was to save organics from synthetic rebellions. It instead opted to rebel against its masters and turned them into a synthetic war machine called Harbinger. Which means that the Catalyst is either broken or lying. All we get from the Leviathans' side of the story is that their AI became the very same thing it was meant to defend against.

4. Throughout the next billion years, the Intelligence created and moved around the mass relays, allowing interstellar civilization to develop, reach a certain level, and then be harvested, (with the likely criteria for harvest probably being something like "AI revolt or overtake imminent").
False. The Reapers don't care if AI rebellions are imminent; they only care if the DNA of the harvested species would make for a good Reaper; everyone else can get fucked and get blown out.

5. Most cycles followed a standard pattern of the keepers sending the signal, reapers take Citadel, harvest begins.
Which has nothing to do with imminent AI rebellions, just whether or not they can make Reapers out of some worthy organics while wiping out the rest.

6. Shepherd's cycle is unique, because Shepherd delayed the harvest multiple times AND successfully managed to construct the Crucible device.
And that prevents AI rebellions because......why, again? Depending on Shepard's choices, an AI rebellion has already broken out, and only a Paragon Shepard managed to talk things down. If anything, a Renegade Shepard who was unable to patch things up between the Geth and the Quarians would meet the criteria for a cycle that should be harvested because they have already created AIs that rebel against their owners. That doesn't make Shepard's cycle unique; it makes it typical.

7. This demonstrates to Star Child that the need for this billion year experiment is over, and a new set of solutions are open-one destruction, two control, three synthesis, and four just redoing it again.
Which doesn't prove anything. All it does is show that Mac Walters and Casey Hudson didn't even check the logic of their own series, especially since they threw out the original ending and didn't consult any of the other writers on it.

The Reapers are ultimately not the ultimate antagonists of the series, they are tools of a greater entity pursuing its own goals.
Wow. Every word of that sentence is a lie.

The Mass Effect series has built up the Reapers as the ultimate antagonists of the series. The first two games, as well as 99 percent of the third game, posited that the Reapers were the ultimate baddies, that they see organics as scum, that they want to wipe out all organics, and the only reason they'd treat humans specially is to make a Reaper out of them. All evil, malicious goals that have nothing to do with saving organics from their own synthetic creations, which is what the Leviathan programmed the Catalyst to do.

You are presuming the Reapers are interested in the stopgap solution of any one civilization, they are not. You are presuming the Reapers are acting out of malice, (they really are not). What they are doing is following a billion year old AI's programming.
The Reapers openly speak in malicious tones to Shepard and his/her crew. They don't give a shit about some AI's programming; they're just narcissistic dickwads who enjoy purging organics for shits and giggles, and the most we see from them getting something out of it is to increase their numbers.

Meanwhile, the Protheans successfully created a civilization that doesn't want AIs, that can live without AIs, and was wiping out AIs, so they were the answer that the Leviathans and the Catalyst would've wanted-but the Reapers wiped them out anyways and made them into the Collectors, because their real aim was purging organics and reproduction, not following the script of some broken AI.

The goal of Starchild is either fulfilled when Shepherd takes it place, synthesizes organic and synthetic life, or lets the process repeat-in Destroy and Refusal. The Starchild is not some final boss Shepherd has to overcome, and the reapers are ultimately not "bad guys".
The Reapers have their Geth acolytes put people on spikes in the first game. The Reapers slaughter organics with glee and gladly encourage rebellious AI to join in on their crusade against organic life. The Reapers repurposed the Protheans into the Collectors, who perform evil, malicious experiments on sapient organics that would make Unit 731 and Josef Mengele blush. All to determine which species is likely the best candidate for the next Reaper.

They are the bad guys in every definable term. The franchise has painted them as bad guys for the first two games and 99 percent of the third game. Hell, many bad guys from other franchises would look positively saintly compared to them.

Face it; the Star Child is an ass pull that has nothing to do with the actual conflict of the story, and was poorly ripped off from Deus Ex because they were rushing the third game, and Casey Hudson and Mac Walters thought they could do better than Drew Karpyshyn, the man who wrote KOTOR, Mass Effect 1 and 2, as well as the vanilla story of SWTOR, most of which were great stories. And all they accomplished was showing the world how much of a clown show the story group in Bioware truly was, without the right talent to watch over them.

And the Star Child broke the logic of the series to the point where Mass Effect lore nuts gave up and stopped taking the story seriously. The Star Child ending literally destroyed the WRPG Renaissance that started with KOTOR and ended with ME3's Star Child becoming the ultimate ass pull; the ultimate insult to the fanbase and the people who followed the lore and Bioware's works.
 
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I think you have fundamentally misunderstood the end of the series. Contrary to YT rage bait, the AI ending is coherent and is actually quite easy to understand.

As for the protheans, you have read so much out of your own ass into the game that is way more sparse even with Javik’s commentary.

As for reaper malice, so what? Saren and the illusive man both smack talk Shepherd and they both turn out to be more sympathetic and you can even convince them to commit suicide rather than die fighting you.

I think you are projecting your own wishes/frustrations onto the material, rather than evaluating the material as it is actually presented. Which is fine, ME3’s ending was controversial, but as someone who only played the series years later(when all the dust had settled), it’s really not the nightmare of ruin you make it out to be.
 
mass effect 2 is a generic shooty bang bang game for console gamers that is only as good as it is because it's coasting off the world building and character development of the first game, an RPG game made for people who enjoy reading and having good characters and autistically managing their inventory and equipment

no matter who was in charge, mass effect 3 was going to be a bad game as the series moved further away from its RPG origins and catered further to people who are children or have the emotional development of children

it's the console curse
 
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