Hunters - Serious Revisionist History and Bad Nazi Hunting

  • 🇵🇦 Nuestro primer dominio localizado está en español en kiwifarms.pa. Our first localized domain is on Spanish on kiwifarms.pa.
  • Want to keep track of this thread?
    Accounts can bookmark posts, watch threads for updates, and jump back to where you stopped reading.
    Create account
Not really. For decades, it wasn't unusual at all to see soldiers on the "evil" side depicted in a humanizing way in WWII movies. Even a by-the-numbers, live-action cartoon like Henry Fonda's The Battle of the Bulge made some effort to show a human side to the enemy (the German everyman character who just wants the war to end so he can go home before his son gets conscripted to fight on the Eastern Front).
The humanization is also true for holocaust films like The Pianist. But I feel like modern films don't try that with any villain, even if they aren't nazis. Though I'm not that much of a moviegoer so it might be me being uninformed.

That's kind of a circular argument. You could say that Nazis are popular villains in large part because they tend to get depicted as drones whose moral compass is completely subsumed by their loyalty.

Meanwhile, as other forum-goers have pointed out, generations of Jewish social scientists have been obsessed with the idea that any given (Gentile) person is a latent Nazi just waiting for an excuse to start goose-stepping around and shoving Jews into ovens. Theodore Adorno and his Authoritarian Personality, Hannah Arendt and her Banality of Evil, Stanley Milgram and his "Milgram Experiment," the list goes on.
The Nazis are easy villains because there is no moral complexity in killing them as they were unarguably the bad side in a war. Even if you discount the holocaust, they were still the aggressors with a shitty reasoning to their actions. Mind you the dehumanization of the Nazis is something that a lot of groups employ. The Americans can use them to justify their more immoral acts in ww2, other european countries can act like they were all in the 'la' resistance' and political groups can call their opponents nazis through the smallest comparisons.

As for Social Sciences, they have always been mainly sheltered idiots who try to fit their world view in a """scientific""" method. You can't really argue they represent actual jews, othwise the same would apply to christian ones representing every christian person.
 
You don't even need to bring up film. Hogan's Heroes showed Colonel Klink, and Sergeant Schultz as bumbling and yet friendly enough when it counted. Even as far back as the Crusades it was known that a man of virtue can fight for a "wrong" cause. See:

The show avoiding addressing the Soviet Union's threat playing a major role in post-war policies like Operation Paperclip and pretending there was no Commie infiltration/presence in entertainment, education, even the state while inventing some fantasy of Nazis still being relelvant after WW2 speaks enough on this show.
 
Última edición:
That sounds genuinely disturbing, it's really disturbing how deranged and hateful media is becoming.

Sounds like a natural progression from that one scene in The Help where the titular domestics "comedically" feed a woman literal shit (unbeknownst to her), because ha-ha, she's racist and that means we can abuse her character with impunity.

Yeah, its played as extremely straight. And all the woman did was basically film propaganda films so they fed her the 'bullshit' that she fed other people. It was genuinely like 'what the fuck'. They try to justify it by saying she was Gobbel's favorite film maker but there's still this disconnect here. Like, would a generic propaganda film maker even be tried for war crimes? I mean, its even worse than hateful, just think about it. Everyone produced propaganda films during WWII. The SS ran the 'final solution' who were often at odds with the general German Army. Regular people didn't 'rise up' and just catch every single Jew they found and sent them off on a train. Many Germans hid Jews as well. Its genuinely fucking insulting.

Like they didn't even bother going 'She filmed the horrific experiments and made them into propaganda' or shit like that. Nope, just generic WWII propaganda. I'm sorry, you might be an asshole, but you didn't kill anybody. People are independent actors, no matter how you slice it. I think that's really what pisses me off about that scene. They try to connect her to the murder of Jews and its really fucking reaching.

With the way progtards think about Nazis and how they're EVERYWHERE OMG, it is literally a childish scene where they feed shit to people's work they don't like. Its also representative of how they think. That by magically seeing propaganda, everyone is instantly brainwashed and goes off to kill Jews. Its a fucking miserable scene with our 'heroes'.
 
Yeah, its played as extremely straight. And all the woman did was basically film propaganda films so they fed her the 'bullshit' that she fed other people. It was genuinely like 'what the fuck'. They try to justify it by saying she was Gobbel's favorite film maker but there's still this disconnect here. Like, would a generic propaganda film maker even be tried for war crimes? I mean, its even worse than hateful, just think about it. Everyone produced propaganda films during WWII. The SS ran the 'final solution' who were often at odds with the general German Army. Regular people didn't 'rise up' and just catch every single Jew they found and sent them off on a train. Many Germans hid Jews as well. Its genuinely fucking insulting.
Wait, are they doing this to Leni Riefenstahl? Because that's dramatically simplifying who Riefenstahl was as a filmmaker and a person. Riefenstahl was a very complicated figure, because she proclaims she wasn't that big of a Nazi (which is probably false) and yet made probably the most influential propaganda movie of all time. She was an immensely talented filmmaker, and her sense of scale was unparalleled at the time. There's a good reason movies are still using the techniques pioneered in Triumph of the Will, as horrible and evil as the movie is.

Or are they talking about someone else? Because when I think female director that made Nazi propaganda I immediately go to Riefenstahl.
 
Wait, are they doing this to Leni Riefenstahl? Because that's dramatically simplifying who Riefenstahl was as a filmmaker and a person. Riefenstahl was a very complicated figure, because she proclaims she wasn't that big of a Nazi (which is probably false) and yet made probably the most influential propaganda movie of all time. She was an immensely talented filmmaker, and her sense of scale was unparalleled at the time. There's a good reason movies are still using the techniques pioneered in Triumph of the Will, as horrible and evil as the movie is.

I fucking hate how everyone wants to shit-talk her, just because she had the bad luck to be born and come of age in Germany at the 'wrong' time. Her talent and ability is without question, and the movies that she made and the work that she did is phenomenal in timeless beauty and spectacle. At a time when nobody really knew what to do with the new media of film she grasped intuitively the power it offered, like Prometheus, and showed to the world the majesty of celluloid. Like Prometheus, she too was condemned for crimes and made to suffer unfairly.

Instead of sperging further, just watch part of Olympia. You can find some pretty good HD rips online easily.
The dynamism of the camera movements, the capturing of humans diving - as if in flight, the beams of light and swelling orchestral music, is somber and uplifting. The games have ended, yet they were but a moment in the history of mankind's struggle to achieve ever greater feats of beauty and skill - the struggle that transcends borders and language, a drive that springs from the heart, a universal yearning to be as the perfect image of God and ascend to the Heavens, worthy and whole.

Makes me cry every time I watch.
 
Última edición:
I fucking hate how everyone wants to shit-talk her, just because she had the bad luck to be born and come of age in Germany at the time. Her talent and ability is without question, and the movies that she made and the work that she did is phenomenal in timeless beauty and spectacle. At a time when nobody really knew what to do with the new media of film she grasped intuitively the power it offered, like Prometheus, and showed to the world the majesty of celluloid. Like Prometheus, she too was condemned for crimes and made to suffer unfairly.

Instead of sperging further, just watch part of Olympia. You can find some pretty good HD rips online easily.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=HHt927h9B5YThe dynamism of the camera movements, the capturing of humans diving - as if in flight, the beams of light and swelling orchestral music, is somber and uplifting. The games have ended, yet they were but a moment in the history of mankind's struggle to achieve ever greater feats of beauty and skill - the struggle that transcends borders and language, a drive that springs from the heart, a universal yearning to be as the perfect image of God and ascend to the Heavens, worthy and whole.

Makes me cry every time I watch.
Sad how Leni Riefenstahl and Hanna Reitsch are either ignored or vilified because they did great things at the wrong time.
 
Wait, are they doing this to Leni Riefenstahl? Because that's dramatically simplifying who Riefenstahl was as a filmmaker and a person. Riefenstahl was a very complicated figure, because she proclaims she wasn't that big of a Nazi (which is probably false) and yet made probably the most influential propaganda movie of all time. She was an immensely talented filmmaker, and her sense of scale was unparalleled at the time. There's a good reason movies are still using the techniques pioneered in Triumph of the Will, as horrible and evil as the movie is.

Or are they talking about someone else? Because when I think female director that made Nazi propaganda I immediately go to Riefenstahl.

Yup, that's her. At least its supposed to be. Again, badly inaccurate as 1) She was never put on trial for any war crimes 2) She didn't try to hide her identity 3) To think that she'd be involved in the 'fourth reich' is laughable 4) And her for operation paperclip? Fucking lol.

This show is such fucking trash
 
Yup, that's her. At least its supposed to be. Again, badly inaccurate as 1) She was never put on trial for any war crimes 2) She didn't try to hide her identity 3) To think that she'd be involved in the 'fourth reich' is laughable 4) And her for operation paperclip? Fucking lol.

This show is such fucking trash
Jesus fucking Christ. I won't defend Riefenstahl's role in creating what is arguably the most effective and horrifying propaganda movie ever made, but it's disgusting to try and paint her as a completely irredeemable villain. It's way more complicated than that, but of course we can't have that in Current Year.
 
Why are the Nazis always so likable and fascinating compared to the main characters?

For instance, Tarantino made the wrong movie with Inglorious Basterds. Why couldn't we watch the hi-jinks of Christoph Waltz for 2 hours rather than vicarious Jewish revenge?
 
Why are the Nazis always so likable and fascinating compared to the main characters?

Nazis, if they aren't a cartoon, are humans that have found a way to do something that most of us would find terrible (industrialized murder), and that is a complex and fascinating journey. Mentally, emotionally, and socially. When done correctly, its far more nuanced and intriguing than the usual one-note 'must kill bad mans' that a bland hero can produce. In fact, to even get your audience to listen long enough to get the above points, you have to make the Nazi pretty affable, otherwise folks just tune them out.

That seems to be likely why.
 
Even if you discount the holocaust, they were still the aggressors with a shitty reasoning to their actions.

This is something important to remember, even putting aside the holocaust the Nazis still did a lot of fucked up things, remember people didn't really know about the holocaust until largely after the fact, so people chose to fight them for other reasons because even without the holocaust it was clear that they were bad news.

You don't even need to bring up film. Hogan's Heroes showed Colonel Klink, and Sergeant Schultz as bumbling and yet friendly enough when it counted. Even as far back as the Crusades it was known that a man of virtue can fight for a "wrong" cause. See:

The show avoiding addressing the Soviet Union's threat playing a major role in post-war policies like Operation Paperclip and pretending there was no Commie infiltration/presence in entertainment, education, even the state while inventing some fantasy of Nazis still being relelvant after WW2 speaks enough on this show.

The thing about Colonel Klink is that he was supposed to be more of an old school, WW1 generation German than a dyed in the wool Nazi, there was one episode where an SS guy visits the camp and he's clearly depicted as unambiguously evil to where even Klink doesn't like him, illustrating a very real culture clash in the German army.

It was surprisingly thought provoking stuff for an otherwise silly show.

Yeah, its played as extremely straight. And all the woman did was basically film propaganda films so they fed her the 'bullshit' that she fed other people. It was genuinely like 'what the fuck'. They try to justify it by saying she was Gobbel's favorite film maker but there's still this disconnect here. Like, would a generic propaganda film maker even be tried for war crimes? I mean, its even worse than hateful, just think about it. Everyone produced propaganda films during WWII. The SS ran the 'final solution' who were often at odds with the general German Army. Regular people didn't 'rise up' and just catch every single Jew they found and sent them off on a train. Many Germans hid Jews as well. Its genuinely fucking insulting.

Like they didn't even bother going 'She filmed the horrific experiments and made them into propaganda' or shit like that. Nope, just generic WWII propaganda. I'm sorry, you might be an asshole, but you didn't kill anybody. People are independent actors, no matter how you slice it. I think that's really what pisses me off about that scene. They try to connect her to the murder of Jews and its really fucking reaching.

With the way progtards think about Nazis and how they're EVERYWHERE OMG, it is literally a childish scene where they feed shit to people's work they don't like. Its also representative of how they think. That by magically seeing propaganda, everyone is instantly brainwashed and goes off to kill Jews. Its a fucking miserable scene with our 'heroes'.

This is the age of "words are violence" so it doesn't really surprise me that they would see a propaganda filmmaker as being as guilty as someone who carried out real violence.
 
Why are the Nazis always so likable and fascinating compared to the main characters?

For instance, Tarantino made the wrong movie with Inglorious Basterds. Why couldn't we watch the hi-jinks of Christoph Waltz for 2 hours rather than vicarious Jewish revenge?

Tarantino did this weird thing where we weren't supposed to root for Nazi killing, which is why he included that propaganda film of allied soldiers getting sniped from the tower and was like 'This is what it would look like on the other end'. Also it was the power of cinema as well, a message he was sending. That just because you see something and be entranced by it, it isn't real but it is powerful.

But then we root for the GIs when they blast Hitler in the face, because Tarantino just loves ultra violence too much. So its kind of a small little message, like, I don't know if he thinks we shouldn't root for it, but realize there are other people who root for the death of GIs? Its kind of muddy. But the power of cinema message is strongly there.

So I'm kinda not sure. I mean he was clearly in love with Waltz's character, which is why he didn't kill him in the end. But its just a little thing.

Nazis, if they aren't a cartoon, are humans that have found a way to do something that most of us would find terrible (industrialized murder), and that is a complex and fascinating journey. Mentally, emotionally, and socially. When done correctly, its far more nuanced and intriguing than the usual one-note 'must kill bad mans' that a bland hero can produce. In fact, to even get your audience to listen long enough to get the above points, you have to make the Nazi pretty affable, otherwise folks just tune them out.

That seems to be likely why.

The main problem is that the audience doesn't know the division from Nazi Party members, who comprised the Gestapo and the SS vs. the General German Army. Its very, exceedingly difficult to humanize members of the Nazi party. 'Operation Valkyrie' wasn't carried out by SS officers, but by the German Army, who were fed up with Hitler's shit. So you CAN humanize the German army. Its exceedingly more difficult to attempt to humanize the Gestapo and the SS. The German Army can easily be sympathized with, they were dragged into a war they didn't want to fight. Fuck, even Rommel wasn't in the SS.

To be clear, there were plenty of people forced to be in the party. But Nazi doesn't equal SS or Gestapo. I don't really think you could humanize them properly. You can humanize the hell out of the German army. Its not like the Final Solution was publicly broadcasted. We still don't know how much the ordinary German or even Nazi outside of the SS knew about it. I'm sure there were rumors, but rumors probably ran rampant during those days. In the information age, we can easily have hindsight. Did some know? Absolutely. Why didn't they do anything? Well, the Nazis would probably fucking murder you and your entire family. I mean, people underestimate how brutal that regime was and the fear it instilled in people. That's another thing that gets me. What's the average person going to do? What CAN they do with secret police being everywhere, infiltrating complex and simple resistance groups? What can a German Army Officer do, who is outranked by the SS? Who is just as likely to end up in a mass grave if he tries something? These aren't questions we think about. And if you could or wanted organize something, who could you trust? Who was an informant or not? There's no cellphones, phone lines are easily tapped, if you have one. We just don't think about these questions. Why didn't the German citizens do anything? Because they couldn't. There was no effective way to organize, like in other countries where language and accent allowed for a distinction (not for an informant, but it was easier). In Germany, there's no such distinction. So who can you trust with this? Who would believe you? After all, you're not seeing the camps, you're not seeing pictures. You're hearing second, third or fourth hand accounts.

There's just a lot to unpack in this moralistic question, for which we don't ask. Because we have the hindsight. Its the same thing: Why don't people rise up against fascist or communist dictators? Because they root out and kill you if you do. Now just imagine you're a Nazi, you've got proof and you want to bring it to the German people. How in the ever living fuck do you do that without getting shot in the face? There's no photocopier. 'Why you in the dark room so much Hanz? Why are you making 50,000 copies of photos of our death camps?' *BANG* Is the result. I mean, its an interesting question to ask. How do you end up resisting this if you're a Nazi without being brutally tortured and murdered? Its even fucking worse if you're deep in the party. That's a den of fucking snakes. So how does your average Nazi do something? I just don't think they could, even if they wanted to. You need to mass disseminate what is probably state secrets, which is treason, so you'll be shot. You'll have to deliver them OUT of the camp and TO Berlin. You have to hope they're not intercepted on the way. Then what the fuck do you do? How many could you possibly make as proof before you're found out? 100 copies? 200? You going to fucking go to the press, which is directly controlled by the government? What's the guarantee ANYTHING gets done and people rise up? None. You can't make a video, nobody has a fucking projector. So this is the question I pose to 'PUNCHING NAZIS' people who think they are 'heroes':

If you're in the Nazi party, realize there is a machine of death going on all around you, how do you get people to do something about it without you or your family getting executed? And the answer is not 'something'. People don't risk their lives over 'something'. You are risking treason, torture and execution. So, what do you do?

And that's really why its hard to make a good 'sympathy' Nazi movie. I mean you could present it as the man slowly going insane as he's trapped in this bottle of death and despair, and he can't get it out to anybody, and even if he could, he wouldn't know how to get anyone to do anything about it. It'd be a miserable movie, because it'd probably end with the guy fucking shooting himself.

For the record, a GOOD Nazi hunting movie is Anthropoid. Its a plot by the British, Czech government in exile and the Czech resistance to kill the 3rd highest ranking Nazi. He was close to Adolf Hitler, assisted in his rise to power and was in charge of the final solution. It goes through the intricacies of how to assassinate someone (but not the moral qualms, lets be honest, anyone would put a bullet in this faggot. There's very little moral about it). What is moral is the consequences of such an action. The families of your compatriots you put in danger. The innocent lives you jeopardize when the Nazi's get riled up. Hell, the innocent lives you jeopardize when you try to pull the assassination. The abject fear of it all. It deals with not the moral act of killing him (because there's no argument, I mean the fucking guy was known as the Butcher of Prague), it deals with the consequences of such an action.

There's no torturing for information like some shitty 24 parody, its information gathering, infiltration, observation. You know, the real shit? Not 'tie octogenarian to chair and torture until he answers your questions'. I swear that's 90% of the Nazi killing in this fucking show.

You can do it pulpy, you can do it serious, you can do it based on real life, but you can't fucking do all 3 at the same time.
 
Última edición:
Anyone remember the Nazi death camp guard, who was living in Queens, New York for decades, that was deported to stand trial in 2018? I recall how this was downplayed (because it was done by the Trump Administration) and some saying that him being taken out on stretcher was humiliating. Fast-forward two years later and we have this show that depicts the torturing and killing of Nazis when they are in their senior years.

And for an update on this guard, Jakiw Palij. He was never prosecuted in Germany and died in a nursing home last year.
 
Tarantino did this weird thing where we weren't supposed to root for Nazi killing, which is why he included that propaganda film of allied soldiers getting sniped from the tower and was like 'This is what it would look like on the other end'. Also it was the power of cinema as well, a message he was sending. That just because you see something and be entranced by it, it isn't real but it is powerful.

But then we root for the GIs when they blast Hitler in the face, because Tarantino just loves ultra violence too much. So its kind of a small little message, like, I don't know if he thinks we shouldn't root for it, but realize there are other people who root for the death of GIs? Its kind of muddy. But the power of cinema message is strongly there.

So I'm kinda not sure. I mean he was clearly in love with Waltz's character, which is why he didn't kill him in the end. But its just a little thing.

I always found that element of the movie interesting and I'm not even sure what Tarantino was even really trying to say.

But while it's been a while since I've seen it wasn't it implied that Waltz's character was not actually sympathetic to Nazi ideology and was simply going along to survive and he was in fact a closet homosexual?
 
But while it's been a while since I've seen it wasn't it implied that Waltz's character was not actually sympathetic to Nazi ideology and was simply going along to survive and he was in fact a closet homosexual?

He struck me as too rational to be in the game out of a deep-seated racist belief, but also cynical enough to realize that not going with the program would have an end-state of him getting a bullet. So he uses his intellect as a lever to acquire a degree of rank and autonomy, and then just does mostly what amuses him; and luckily enough he finds intellectual stimulation in man-hunting. I think he's a sadist to some degree, without a doubt, and smart enough to find a way to make the situation benefit him regardless of the ideology.
 
Anyone remember the Nazi death camp guard, who was living in Queens, New York for decades, that was deported to stand trial in 2018? I recall how this was downplayed (because it was done by the Trump Administration) and some saying that him being taken out on stretcher was humiliating. Fast-forward two years later and we have this show that depicts the torturing and killing of Nazis when they are in their senior years.

And for an update on this guard, Jakiw Palij. He was never prosecuted in Germany and died in a nursing home last year.
It really tells us how they're basically scraping the bottom of the barrel now when they're going after the lowest ranks troops, this guy wasn't even a German, but most likely just conscripted in a hurry as he was 19 at the time and the Germans currently controlled his village

Reminds me of another camp guard on trial in Germany, a 93 year old was being put on trial last year, that would make him 18 around 1944, literally a teen coming of age being given the choice of frontline duty or guard duty
 
Atrás
Top Abajo