Heathers - A Failure of an 80's reboot

[Grand Lunar]

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Oh god, sounds like a heavy implication that JD will in fact turn out to be an anti-SJW whose real motivation for taking down the Heathers will be that he doesn't like "body positivity" and non-binary genders. I expect Veronica will then be forced to view the Heathers in a more sympathetic light and that their nastiness will be played off as a result of being mocked as kids for being too special.
The ultimate message will be that even though SJWs act like nasty, bullying, insufferable, entitled brats, they're really just lashing out because society is mean to them, and that all the "privileged" people need to just shut up and give in to every one of their demands, no matter how bitter or unreasonable.

 

[Steamboat_Bill]

Oh god, sounds like a heavy implication that JD will in fact turn out to be an anti-SJW whose real motivation for taking down the Heathers will be that he doesn't like "body positivity" and non-binary genders. I expect Veronica will then be forced to view the Heathers in a more sympathetic light and that their nastiness will be played off as a result of being mocked as kids for being too special.
The ultimate message will be that even though SJWs act like nasty, bullying, insufferable, entitled brats, they're really just lashing out because society is mean to them, and that all the "privileged" people need to just shut up and give in to every one of their demands, no matter how bitter or unreasonable.

Didn't I say that's probably what would happen? They've just about confirmed it.

 

[Grand Lunar]

Didn't I say that's probably what would happen? They've just about confirmed it.

Yeah, I was just expanding on it.

Also, something someone else brought up was that in the original Heather Chandler's suicide was a shock because no one expected the pretty popular girl to be secretly miserable. Now that it's basically confirmed that SJW vs. Anti-SJW politics is going to be the overarching theme of this show, I wonder how this aspect of the plot will change. The trailer shows Veronica calling HC "fatty" during their fight instead of throwing up on her, so I wonder if "fat shaming" will end up being the supposed cause of suicide this time around? This might result in Veronica being blamed for being the final straw that sparked the "suicide" instead of more or less getting away with it for most of the story.

One part I'm not sure about yet is where Kurt and Ram fit into this. They still look like stereotypical, popular jocks, so if it is true that JD is going to be an anti-SJW he'll need to have another reason to target them. Maybe they'll be a shot at hypocritical male feminists who champion the causes for virtue points but don't actually believe in them? Or maybe they're both bisexual and JD targets them purely over that.

Call me optimistic, but Martha Dunstock being poor might actually be at least one instance of the producers calling out SJW hypocrisy. The SJW Heathers will be totally okay with bullying a poor girl, since rich SJWs tend to gloss over wealth privilege entirely to avoid losing victim points.

 

[One Man Bland]

Yeah, I was just expanding on it.

Also, something someone else brought up was that in the original Heather Chandler's suicide was a shock because no one expected the pretty popular girl to be secretly miserable. Now that it's basically confirmed that SJW vs. Anti-SJW politics is going to be the overarching theme of this show, I wonder how this aspect of the plot will change. The trailer shows Veronica calling HC "fatty" during their fight instead of throwing up on her, so I wonder if "fat shaming" will end up being the supposed cause of suicide this time around? This might result in Veronica being blamed for being the final straw that sparked the "suicide" instead of more or less getting away with it for most of the story.

One part I'm not sure about yet is where Kurt and Ram fit into this. They still look like stereotypical, popular jocks, so if it is true that JD is going to be an anti-SJW he'll need to have another reason to target them. Maybe they'll be a shot at hypocritical male feminists who champion the causes for virtue points but don't actually believe in them? Or maybe they're both bisexual and JD targets them purely over that.

Call me optimistic, but Martha Dunstock being poor might actually be at least one instance of the producers calling out SJW hypocrisy. The SJW Heathers will be totally okay with bullying a poor girl, since rich SJWs tend to gloss over wealth privilege entirely to avoid losing victim points.

The thing is, Heather Chandler's suicide isn't just shocking, her And later the movie's death also make the very concept of suicide a "popular" thing. As Veronica says later "suicide gave Heather depth, Kurt a brain, and Ram a soul" and when Martha later attempts suicide herself after years of bullying she's dismissed as just being a poser. It also shakes up the rest of the hierarchy where Heather MacNamera confessing that her life isn't perfect and all these deaths have put her in an emotional turmoil are seen as opportunities to tear her down from her place in popularity, which causes her to nearly commit suicide as well admist all the rather ironic suicide awareness campaigns going on at the school.

None of these things will be able to work if they try to turn it into some SJW vs. anti-SJW thing, because unless they're planning to make the Heathers backstabbing hypocrits who try to levy what level of "oppressed" they are over each other for social favor then the rest of the plot just isn't going to work. People have mentioned the jocks' gay suicide pact doesn't work with these social dynamics, but what the he'll are they gonna do about MacNamera now that they've made her a 90s sitcom Sassy Gay Friend dressed up as a Tumblr genderspecial? Hell, how is the jocks suicide pact supposed to work when Heather MacNamera was one of the jock's girlfriend in the original? The only one that could conceivably work is Martha if the reasoning to blow her attempt is "well she was straight, white, and did so lol who cares" despite FatPo Heather being the same thing except rich, but even that's dubious since it still doesn't account for the rest of the plot being fucked.

 

[Grand Lunar]

None of these things will be able to work if they try to turn it into some SJW vs. anti-SJW thing, because unless they're planning to make the Heathers backstabbing hypocrits who try to levy what level of "oppressed" they are over each other for social favor then the rest of the plot just isn't going to work. People have mentioned the jocks' gay suicide pact doesn't work with these social dynamics, but what the he'll are they gonna do about MacNamera now that they've made her a 90s sitcom Sassy Gay Friend dressed up as a Tumblr genderspecial? Hell, how is the jocks suicide pact supposed to work when Heather MacNamera was one of the jock's girlfriend in the original? The only one that could conceivably work is Martha if the reasoning to blow her attempt is "well she was straight, white, and did so lol who cares" despite FatPo Heather being the same thing except rich, but even that's dubious since it still doesn't account for the rest of the plot being fucked.

One of the clips actually does show Heather Duke about to kiss one of the jocks, so presumably at least one is gay/bisexual. So if the double date from the original movie still happens, Duke will probably take the place of McNamara (lesbian in this version) as one of the jocks' date.

Fat people (especially fat women) are a protected group under SJ, so yes Heather Chandler committing suicide due to fat shaming would likely be taken more seriously by the SJW than Martha's attempt, since the only marginalized trait she has is being poor and they don't care about that.

As for the first part, I do think this could actually work if they made the Heathers operate on the SJW "oppression" hierarchy to gain social power. Maybe Veronica is accepted into the group for coming out as bisexual or something, but is still treated like crap by the rest of the group for being the "least oppressed" as a thin white blonde cis girl. Maybe J.D. isn't anti-SJW at all, but a representative of what happens when opposition to SJWs goes full circle and becomes white/straight/male identitarian (alt-right). Veronica would be the run of the mill centrist caught between the two extremes. If done well, that might actually have the potential to be a biting social satire that takes shots at both sides, and would actually be pretty risky because so far barely anyone has been brave enough to try anything that would enrage the SJW crowd so much. Unlikely that they'll actually go that rout though.

 

[Steamboat_Bill]

One of the clips actually does show Heather Duke about to kiss one of the jocks, so presumably at least one is gay/bisexual. So if the double date from the original movie still happens, Duke will probably take the place of McNamara (lesbian in this version) as one of the jocks' date.

Fat people (especially fat women) are a protected group under SJ, so yes Heather Chandler committing suicide due to fat shaming would likely be taken more seriously by the SJW than Martha's attempt, since the only marginalized trait she has is being poor and they don't care about that.

As for the first part, I do think this could actually work if they made the Heathers operate on the SJW "oppression" hierarchy to gain social power. Maybe Veronica is accepted into the group for coming out as bisexual or something, but is still treated like crap by the rest of the group for being the "least oppressed" as a thin white blonde cis girl. Maybe J.D. isn't anti-SJW at all, but a representative of what happens when opposition to SJWs goes full circle and becomes white/straight/male identitarian (alt-right). Veronica would be the run of the mill centrist caught between the two extremes. If done well, that might actually have the potential to be a biting social satire that takes shots at both sides, and would actually be pretty risky because so far barely anyone has been brave enough to try anything that would enrage the SJW crowd so much. Unlikely that they'll actually go that rout though.

While arguably something like this should be done as a new thing and not as a remake of an old thing, what you're proposing really could work. I'd watch it. It'd be really great if done properly.

The only problem is there's no indication that that's what they're going for here.

 

[Rotogravure]

Regarding Martha Dunnstock, this young lady (Annalisa Cochran) is listed as Shelby Dunnstock. I guess Martha isn't cool enough, and might as well change the name since she isn't fat.

I AM genuinely curious what Shannen Doherty's role as "Heather" is supposed to be about though (edit to add: since she was the original Heather Duke in the movie).

 

[Grand Lunar]

While arguably something like this should be done as a new thing and not as a remake of an old thing, what you're proposing really could work. I'd watch it. It'd be really great if done properly.

The only problem is there's no indication that that's what they're going for here.

Yeah, I know, but sometimes it's fun to speculate.
I'd also prefer something like this to be done as a new thing, but in fairness the purpose of the original Heathers movie was to deconstruct and satirize the culture of the time, and was controversial due to being the first dark comedy to deal with the themes it presented. Going this rout with the reboot would be a decent way to update the satire by focusing on something from recent culture, and in the spirit of the original it would drum up a ton of controversy by tackling issues no one (except South Park) has tried to tackle before.

 

[Old Blighty]

I AM genuinely curious what Shannen Doherty's role as "Heather" is supposed to be about though (edit to add: since she was the original Heather Duke in the movie).

The wikipedia page and another article I read says her character is yet to be named but the article is from a while ago and wikipedia isn't reliable. Her character is supposed to play a pivotal role, so I'm guessing she'll be the one who gives the new Veronica and JD the idea to kill people as a shout out to the original. Or she's playing someone's mother, either one of the Heathers or Veronica's if she's in more than one episode. If she's in just one, maybe she play JD's mother and her death will be onscreen, so they can draw things out by having his mental state unravel onscreen instead of most of that having happened before he moved to town and have an 'exciting' end to the first episode.

 

[Grand Lunar]

The wikipedia page and another article I read says her character is yet to be named but the article is from a while ago and wikipedia isn't reliable. Her character is supposed to play a pivotal role, so I'm guessing she'll be the one who gives the new Veronica and JD the idea to kill people as a shout out to the original. Or she's playing someone's mother, either one of the Heathers or Veronica's if she's in more than one episode. If she's in just one, maybe she play JD's mother and her death will be onscreen, so they can draw things out by having his mental state unravel onscreen instead of most of that having happened before he moved to town and have an 'exciting' end to the first episode.

I think it was said somewhere that her face would be the first thing seen in the show, so I would be willing to bet on 1:41 of the trailer being the opening scene.

Interestingly, she's wearing what appears to be a version of the red scrunchie from the original, though it strangely resembles the musical's version more than the movie. Could be a red herring, but just for fun I'm going to take this as a hint that her character will have some kind of connection to the original Heather Duke. If this version of J.D. is likely to be an alt-right terrorist who, whether he admits it to Veronica or not, will be motivated by a desire to put minorities "back in their place," then they're going to need to include some type of representative of the "old" order. I'm not saying that Shannon's character will literally be an adult Heather Duke, since having it turn out to be a stealth "history repeats itself" sequel would be incredibly corny, but I think it's likely that she'll be the incarnation of what Heather Duke would have become in adulthood. Clearly a mess, realizing that all the work she put into social climbing in high school was ultimately worthless in the grand scheme of things (inferred from "whatever you do, make sure it matters"), and desperate to relive the "glory" days in any way possible so that she can feel like her previous actions had a purpose. With this in mind the scene in the trailer very much appears to be her encouraging someone to "pick up the hatchet" and continue the work she did in high school, by any means necessary. My guess is that she'll latch on to Veronica, seeing her as the insecure pretty girl that ought to be climbing to the top of the social ladder. The black and white clip of a black haired girl with a red scrunchie overlayed with Veronica's voice at the beginning of the trailer further backs this up. If the girl shown is Shannon's character in her teens it could be meant to show that she identifies with Veronica in some way. She could well attempt to coach Veronica into becoming the new alpha bitch, and might help convince her to join J.D. in his murderous rampage. More evidence of this is that, much like Heather Duke from the original, Veronica shifts colors from blue with a red stripe at the beginning of the trailer to a red dress and a red jacket later in the trailer.

Side Note: I kind of wish Shannon didn't have her hair dyed black. I really liked her distinctive shade of auburn from the original. Would fit well since the new HD is also a redhead lol.

 

[Grand Lunar]

The first episode of the show has been released online on paramount's website.
http://www.paramountnetwork.com/episodes/cwmbrm/heathers-pilot-season-1-ep-1
Watched the first 17 minutes so far and:

Spoiler

- Within the first 10 minutes, HC publicly shames Ram for wearing a shirt featuring an american indian mascot and threatens to ruin his chances of getting a scholarship by posting it on instagram.
- It's insinuated that HM isn't actually lesbian and is faking it for "oppression" points.
- It's implied that Veronica was only accepted into the group because she's half Jewish, but as I predicted HC still points out that she's the "least oppressed" of the group and treats her like shit

So far, I like it. Could change depending on where they go with it (and whether it does enough original stuff to distinguish from the handful of other shows that have already nailed this topic), but it looks like my hopes of it becoming a clever satire of SJW politics could very well be fulfilled.

 

[Kroster]

I don't think I've ever seen a show try so hard. It would work as a sketch comedy making fun of SJWs, but as a full series it's painful. The acting is terrible, too.

 

[Grand Lunar]

I don't think I've ever seen a show try so hard. It would work as a sketch comedy making fun of SJWs, but as a full series it's painful. The acting is terrible, too.

Yeah, after watching the whole thing I have to say you're right. They're trying so hard to replicate the humorous fake slang language from the original that it almost seems more like a parody than a genuine attempt. J.D.'s terrible acting, bad dialogue, and lack of any real personality make his scenes with Veronica pretty unwatchable too tbh. I still think the SJW angle could work if the writers really did their homework and showed a true understanding of how they function IRL, but the first episode ended up looking like they learned everything they know about them by watching a few youtube parodies. And the surprise ending....

Spoiler

Heather Chandler wanting to use the incident to become famous seems like a decent idea for an SJW character, but is just too unbelievable to work IMO. No matter how famous she might get from it, is she really dumb enough to think that two people who already tried to kill her are just going to go along with it? Also, apparently everyone at school assumed she was dead and created a eulogy without even bothering to check.

I'll still interested to see where the rest of the story goes, but unfortunately there's already too many problems from the first episode for it to realistically recover.

 

[AnOminous]

Yeah, after watching the whole thing I have to say you're right. They're trying so hard to replicate the humorous fake slang language from the original that it almost seems more like a parody than a genuine attempt. J.D.'s terrible acting, bad dialogue, and lack of any real personality make his scenes with Veronica pretty unwatchable too tbh.

That doesn't sound like it's going to go well, and my gripe from the outset is there's just no way to do the genuine chemistry between Christian Slater's Holden Caulfield meets Jack Nicholson persona and Winona Ryder at her cutest.

 

[Steamboat_Bill]

That doesn't sound like it's going to go well, and my gripe from the outset is there's just no way to do the genuine chemistry between Christian Slater's Holden Caulfield meets Jack Nicholson persona and Winona Ryder at her cutest.

Creative alchemy is one of the hardest things to recreate, and most of the time you end up horribly botching it, as this is showing.

 

[Kroster]

Christian Slater oozed charisma in the original, and you can see why bored and lonely Veronica got caught up in it. In the show version, the actor can't act, his lines are terribly written, and I wanted to yell to Veronica to back away from the creepy guy.

 

[Grand Lunar]

That doesn't sound like it's going to go well, and my gripe from the outset is there's just no way to do the genuine chemistry between Christian Slater's Holden Caulfield meets Jack Nicholson persona and Winona Ryder at her cutest.

IDK, personally I was introduced to Heathers by the musical and still prefer that version. In most of the versions I've seen, the actors playing J.D. and Veronica have done pretty well. I think they just picked an exceptionally bad actor for J.D in the show.

Also, the pilot episode is already causing some major salt from the SJW crowd
http://birthmoviesdeath.com/2018/02/24/heathers-pilot-review-the-adults-arent-alright

 

[Kroster]

The show offers no explanation for why Veronica and the Heathers are friends. In the original, it's a symbiotic relationship: Veronica does handwriting for their bullying and it's implied she does their homework, and she's a former nerd swept up in the idea of being popular, going to parties, having cool friends. Even when they're bitchy to each other, you can see there's still some fondness and mutual respect. It's more the "get in, loser, we're going shopping" kind of meaness than outright hostility. The beginning of the movie is about Veronica realizing that the grass isn't greener and that being popular doesn't bring her happiness.

But in this,Veronica and the Heathers hate each other from the start, they have nothing in common, and the friendship doesn't make sense. It seems like a big school with plenty of normal people, why wouldn't Veronica find some normal friends who are nice to her and who she likes?

 

[Grand Lunar]

The show offers no explanation for why Veronica and the Heathers are friends. In the original, it's a symbiotic relationship: Veronica does handwriting for their bullying and it's implied she does their homework, and she's a former nerd swept up in the idea of being popular, going to parties, having cool friends. Even when they're bitchy to each other, you can see there's still some fondness and mutual respect. It's more the "get in, loser, we're going shopping" kind of meaness than outright hostility. The beginning of the movie is about Veronica realizing that the grass isn't greener and that being popular doesn't bring her happiness.

But in this,Veronica and the Heathers hate each other from the start, they have nothing in common, and the friendship doesn't make sense. It seems like a big school with plenty of normal people, why wouldn't Veronica find some normal friends who are nice to her and who she likes?

Well, it does look like Veronica and Heather Duke have something resembling a friendship going on at the beginning. And she clearly joined the Heathers thinking that she could get in on their use of "progressive" politics to gain social power, just like the original. Other problems aside, this particular aspect doesn't seem too inconsistent IMO. And anyway it kind of fits the topic, since IRL people who participate in these types of groups tend to not really like each other and will jump at the chance to throw someone else under the bus to show that they're more "virtuous" than everyone else.

 

[Steamboat_Bill]

The new Heathers show is going to be delayed because of the shooting in Florida.

And the world is rocked by the sounds of no one caring.