Has the media and corporations left Men behind? - Are Women in control of the consumer market?

[Sīn the Moon Daddy]

I've pictured myself as the muscular badass on a number of occasions throughout my life. It really isn't a thing that is confined to just women.

 

[V0dka]

This isn't a universal thing that people of any gender do? Christ, that's news to me.

I've pictured myself as the muscular badass on a number of occasions throughout my life. It really isn't a thing that is confined to just women.

In videogames I think it's different. Men are in control in a game, they are responsible for the actions they are doing, so they can immerse themselves in a character, especially if they can customize it to their liking.

Similarily, when Men imagine things, they are in control of their own fantasy, for all intents and purposes, they are the fantasy. Similarly to how boys imagine they are Spiderman, and act it out, there is a direct connection there.

When Women read a romance novel or watch a movie with a Woman lead, why do they have to represent them? Why are they written in a either Mary Sue like way, or a Passive Macguffin that the male characters want? Why is it that such fanfiction is so popular with women to write?

I think theres some sort of difference there in how Men and Women process fantasy. Men require direct action or internal imagination for a fantasy to play out. Women can use a sort of stand-in or vessel to empathize with in a 3rd party sense.

 

[UQ 770]

In videogames I think it's different. Men are in control in a game, they are responsible for the actions they are doing, so they can immerse themselves in a character, especially if they can customize it to their liking.

Similarily, when Men imagine things, they are in control of their own fantasy, for all intents and purposes, they are the fantasy. Similarly to how boys imagine they are Spiderman, and act it out, there is a direct connection there.

When Women read a romance novel or watch a movie with a Woman lead, why do they have to represent them? Why are they written in a either Mary Sue like way, or a Passive Macguffin that the male characters want? Why is it that such fanfiction is so popular with women to write?

I think theres some sort of difference there in how Men and Women process fantasy. Men require direct action or internal imagination for a fantasy to play out. Women can use a sort of stand-in or vessel to empathize with in a 3rd party sense.

Its possible women just aren't encouraged enough to be creative or imaginative. otherwise your interpretation paints a grim picture of the human race where half of our species is boring and shallow just because they have bobs and vagene. Though that accusation would make me a massive hypocrite since I've observed before that like 90% of the population lacks much of an imagination altogether.

 

[V0dka]

Its possible women just aren't encouraged enough to be creative or imaginative. otherwise your interpretation paints a grim picture of the human race where half of our species is boring and shallow just because they have bobs and vagene. Though that accusation would make me a massive hypocrite since I've observed before that like 90% of the population lacks much of an imagination altogether.

I wonder if it's some kind of reversal. See a young boy will imagine himself as Spiderman and then act out getting bad guys and saving people etc, this is repeated as they get older with say, imagining yourself as a soldier while playing airsoft, or imagining yourself as a skilled assassin, while playing a FPS and such. While Women seem to weave a scenario first and then by proxy plop themselves into it. I don't think it's a lack of imagination, I think it's the way they approach it is different. At least in general terms, since Mary Shelly wrote Frankenstein, so obviously there are exceptions on both sides.

For a crude example take Bella from Twilight, there was this whole world full of Vampires and Werewolves with all these politics and wars and such, until one day, Bella got dropped right in the middle of it and everyone wanted her. What's special about her? Nothing in reality, shes just like you, the reader.

You see this repeated again in Star Wars but in a more Mary Sue-like way. What's special about Rey? Nothing, she doesn't have any famous parents or anything, she could be anyone, even you. They try to keep her as ambiguous as possible, because the more blank she is, the more female viewers can identify with her.

At least thats my working theory at the moment.

 

[Sīn the Moon Daddy]

I can relate to Bella Swan far more than I should.

In any case I suppose I misunderstood what you described. Male fantasies do tend to be very active and centered around being unfettered.

The idea of completing a task for a particularly beautiful woman to earn her affection isn't exactly unmanly either. Tales of chivalry, the knight questing for his Lady, etc.

 

[ICametoLurk]

Like that Gillette ad.

The commercial isn't targeted at men, even tho it is a product for men. it is targeted at the wives, mommies, and girl friends of men to make the subconscious choice to purchase Gillette products when the opportunity arises. Like, she at walmart and her bf asked her to pick up some razors. After she breaks down in tears she will pick up a pack of Gillette. Gillette doesn't even assume you have control of the purse strings to get to decide. That is how much they really think of you and your masculinity. >:3

 

[UQ 770]

I just had a whole post typed up and cleared it because the answer occured to me. We've been having this entire debate over this whole question of how mentally different the minds of men and women are or aren't, but it kind of ignores the original title of the thread. Have corporations left men behind? It seems so... but because women do all of the shopping/women are more profitable/more impulsive purchasers? I don't think so.

But my opinion doesn't matter, because its pretty damn clear that corporations themselves seem to believe that. This sounds so stupidly obvious to me now that I say it, but marketing starts at the top. The marketers who make the real bank are the ones who shill their brand in the board rooms. Is any of this profitable? Who knows, because people just blindly buy into shit these days anyway. Some old bat clops into the board room in her high heels and starts yammering about how women are the next big demographic. Marketing is the psychology equivalent of reading fucking tea leaves anyway, so the directors just go with whatever sounds good to them because lunch is in ten minutes and Mister CEO really wants to fuck his secretary again.

For instance, does anyone here really think that Gillette ad hurt their sales any more than marginally? People bitched about it for awhile, and a few people sperged out about older-fashioned razors and such, but I doubt the numbers dropped more than a handful. This kind of controversy may even have been cultivated deliberately to cover up the fact that companies like Gillette are probably losing ground to the trendy hipster brands.

 

[V0dka]

I just had a whole post typed up and cleared it because the answer occured to me. We've been having this entire debate over this whole question of how mentally different the minds of men and women are or aren't, but it kind of ignores the original title of the thread.

If Men and Women weren't mentally different, then why has advertising changed so much in the last 30 year or so? You are fed this line that Women and Men are the same, and yet, you see the advertising market and media market changing to the point I can barely stand to read anything put out by mainstream media, wheres the facts? Where's the evidence? Where's something tangible to convince me?

It's almost like a sleight of hand in a way. Men and Women are the same, but we are changing our marketing parameters, just because. Well it's certainly not garnering my interest now, so I assume you are in search of some other demographic.

It's like the media is gaslighting you. "Things have always been like this we aren't changing things you stupid men! We aren't here to take away your toys!" Maybe they aren't, but they aren't making toys for you anymore.

 

[UQ 770]

If Men and Women weren't mentally different, then why has advertising changed so much in the last 30 year or so? You are fed this line that Women and Men are the same, and yet, you see the advertising market and media market changing to the point I can barely stand to read anything put out by mainstream media, wheres the facts? Where's the evidence? Where's something tangible to convince me?

Dunno, I came to that conclusion entirely on my own. Nobody is feeding me the idea that men and women are the same at all, if anything thirdwaver feminists are feeding me the idea that women are dainty little daisygirls being constantly assailed by toxic masculinity and their endless discomfort is somehow worse than the endless discomfort the average guy like me seems to feel on a constant basis. Seems to me most of the human race is afflicted with some kind of fucking mental issue these days. I can't really divine genders when most personalities boil down to fucked up, fucked up and fucked up.

 

[V0dka]

Dunno, I came to that conclusion entirely on my own. Nobody is feeding me the idea that men and women are the same at all, if anything thirdwaver feminists are feeding me the idea that women are dainty little daisygirls being constantly assailed by toxic masculinity and their endless discomfort is somehow worse than the endless discomfort the average guy like me seems to feel on a constant basis. Seems to me most of the human race is afflicted with some kind of fucking mental issue these days. I can't really divine genders when most personalities boil down to fucked up, fucked up and fucked up.

If thats the case, how does a Man who is transgender then become a Woman? There's a hypocrisy. Either theres a functional way in Men and Women brains operate, or there isn't.

 

[AF 802]

If thats the case, how does a Man who is transgender then become a Woman? There's a hypocrisy. Either theres a functional way in Men and Women brains operate, or there isn't.

All it is is a trend, either that or people who were abused as babies trying to escape their past.

 

[V0dka]

All it is is a trend, either that or people who were abused as babies trying to escape their past.

I don't know many trends than result in a fucked body and altering brain chemistry, maybe heroin, was that a trend?

 

[UQ 770]

I don't know many trends than result in a fucked body and altering brain chemistry

I do motherfucker, have you looked at the drug addiction, suicide rate and alcohol deaths lately? Re.tarded people have finally begun labeling it "Despair Deaths" after two fucking decades of watching a path of destruction bloom straight under their noses. People don't troon out for fun the same way I'm not drinking myself to death just because I enjoy it. People dump tons of chemicals and shit into their body under some kind of extreme mental issue, and the world is just barely waking up to the fact that wanting to bomb your own brain chemistry into oblivion either chemically or with an acute lead injection is a serious problem.

 

[Sprig of Parsley]

I do motherfucker, have you looked at the drug addiction, suicide rate and alcohol deaths lately? Re.tarded people have finally begun labeling it "Despair Deaths" after two fucking decades of watching a path of destruction bloom straight under their noses. People don't troon out for fun the same way I'm not drinking myself to death just because I enjoy it. People dump tons of chemicals and shit into their body under some kind of extreme mental issue, and the world is just barely waking up to the fact that wanting to bomb your own brain chemistry into oblivion either chemically or with an acute lead injection is a serious problem.

The reason it's taken this long because honestly people don't give a fuck until it's THEIR kid or THEIR parent or THEIR friend and we've finally hit a point where enough kids, parents, friends etc. are fucking themselves up and the rest of these assholes realize there might be a problem because it's starting to affect THEM.

Welcome to the state of mental health in Year of our Lord 2019. We have bits of Star Trek-tier technology but we're still fucking quasi-stone age about treating mental illness because people are unempathetic pieces of shit.

 

[MI 814]

People still don't realise that women aren't really into action movies as the general aesthetic and style of those aren't really things women care for.
Saying it's the same as smoking is ridiculous. Smoking doesn't involve people/monsters being blown to bits and aggressive imagery. It seems to me that Vodka is just trying to parrot what Marketting executives think rather than what's the reality.

The next thing we need is someone's whose name is related to the brain to come in and claim that Get Woke Go Broke doesn't exist even though it clearly does (just it's not always apparent or always guaranteed to happen)

 

[V0dka]

People still don't realise that women aren't really into action movies as the general aesthetic and style of those aren't really things women care for.
Saying it's the same as smoking is ridiculous. Smoking doesn't involve people/monsters being blown to bits and aggressive imagery. It seems to me that Vodka is just trying to parrot what Marketting executives think rather than what's the reality.

Why do marketing executives think this way though? We all know Women buy the most stuff, do the most shopping, we know Women in general don't want their Man watching a spring break wet t-shirt contest or enjoy watching tanks level buildings.

As Women have gained more financial and legal independence from Men, they, being the more receptive and spendy consumers, would now get the majority of the pandering, marketing and alterations to existing male markets to attract their business. And this is reflected in media as well.

 

[NN 401]

@ V0dka

Women want to be Helen of Troy?!?

Has anyone bothered to ask a woman (that you trust) what they think?

Looked at any of the historical feminine archetypes littered throughout history?

Isis, Inanna, Parvati, Athena, changing woman????

Or taken a more than cursory look at media aimed at women other than Fiftyshades of Gray or Twilight!


Because this is what I’m seeing as female power fantasies.

Sailor Moon
Magic Knight Rayearth
Jem
Strawberry Shortcake
Rainbow Bright
My little pony (the original obviously)

This of course doesn’t take into account shows with a gender neutral focus or had a sizeable female contingent despite being aimed at males.



Princess Zelda down there is what women aspire to be.
“In my dreams I’m beautiful... and bad!!” (Brownie points for who I’m referencing here and what franchise)

Dudes don’t get it because it’s all pink and delicate and shit.

Being glamorous and beautiful, a leader who can hold court and ride into battle, with a strong group of female friends and a hot, masculine boyfriend whose demeanor is tempered with kindness and one that can competently hold his own. ( shit... sex in the city for all its flaws hits these metrics too.)

 

[SilkGnut]

Its possible women just aren't encouraged enough to be creative or imaginative. otherwise your interpretation paints a grim picture of the human race where half of our species is boring and shallow just because they have bobs and vagene. Though that accusation would make me a massive hypocrite since I've observed before that like 90% of the population lacks much of an imagination altogether.

Estrogen is one hell of a drug, it is no coincidence that nearly every troon ends up as a ghoulish parody of their former selves.

Keep in mind the problem does not so much lay with women themselves so much as a society that is structured to exploit them while making them feel empowered. Edward Bernays was a smart man, more people should check out his books.

 

[NN 401]

Estrogen is one hell of a drug, it is no coincidence that nearly every troon ends up as a ghoulish parody of their former selves.

Keep in mind the problem does not so much lay with women themselves so much as a society that is structured to exploit them while making them feel empowered. Edward Bernays was a smart man, more people should check out his books.

Century of the Self.


This is why I can’t take muh “bio troofs” and any of this evo psych shit seriously.

None of it remotely accounts for the massive impact mass media has had on people and their self image and culture.

Watching that thing and reading about mimetics paints a sobering picture of the human psyche and emphasizes why certain archetypes were so important.

 

[UQ 770]

Estrogen is one hell of a drug, it is no coincidence that nearly every troon ends up as a ghoulish parody of their former selves.

Estrogen does have some interesting effects but introducing troons into the equation just tosses the issue into the mire. Regardless of the precise effects of estrogen or testosterone, I'm pretty sure they are not meant to interact the way hormone blockers/HRT make them do. Far as I'm concerned, if you put both at once into a syringe and injected it into a person, they'd probably exhibit instant schizophrenia before they expired ten minutes later.