Game of Thrones Thread

[not william stenchever]

So I'm seeing some interesting arguments on reddit that the linchpin that brought this story crashing down was the decision to remove Young Griff and Jon Connington, along with Quentyn Martell and the Dorne plot, because somehow those elements are going to tie everything together. The resulting patch job on the show just isn't working.

I have not read the books, and the big plot points that are left out are the things I know the least about, but would any of the book experts here care to weigh in? From what I gather, the thinking is that Griff will conquer King's Landing before Daenerys manages it, and she'll turn her dragons loose on the city out of rage and frustration.

Have some speculation on what book-Dany's motivation to burn King's Landing will be

Spoiler: Book Spoilers Probably Included

I think the broad outline of what would happen in the books is this: Jon Connigton and Young Griff (AKA Fake Aegon Targaryen, or fAegon) pull off a stunning victory against superior forces and put fAegon on the Iron Throne, the Reach and the Stormlands and Dorne (at least) behind him.

When Dany rolls up to King's Landing she will see fAegon in possesion of both her birthright and the love of her people. See sees that even if she deposes him even without committing warcrimes the people will forever see him as the one who saved the land (people down south won't believe she just helped kill frost satan) and her as a psychotic foreign tyrant. She realizes that she will never be loved by her people, the fake Targaryen has forever stolen that possibility from her.

As she gets more and more enraged by this state of affairs she decides that if she cannot be loved then she must be feared. She thinks of the imposter claiming to be a Targ, and thinks of her house words: Fire and Blood. Time to show this fake fucker who stole her birthright what Fire and Blood really means. Time to commence Operation Reign of Fire. And then maybe she dies when the wildfire explodes, or maybe the books end like they began, with a Stark beheading someone.

Also Jon Connington gives everyone greyscale.

 

[Stoneheart]

You're also missing the point. Braavos and the Slave cities don't operate in a bubble, devoid of contact. Braavos sits right on the edge of the slave trade, and when it's opposition to slavery affects Pentos, that affects the slave trade in Slavers Bay.

Braavos is a city of run away slaves, a long distance away from slavers bay. it is(or was) a secret for the longest time.

 

[not william stenchever]

Braavos is a city of run away slaves, a long distance away from slavers bay. it is(or was) a secret for the longest time.

I enjoy the theories that the Faceless Men were founded by slaves in Valyria before founding Braavos and are somehow responsible for the Doom of Valyria.

 

[verissimus]

-also has a group of savages willing to die for him

Pretty sure the Wildlings (well what's left of them anyway) left in episode 4 after Jon offered them that they could stay.

 

[Marco Fucko]

book experts

I'm not, but here's the basics of that storyline:

Spoiler

• There is a 'sister house' to the Targaryens, the Blackfyres, composed of the descendants of a Targaryen bastard who was bestowed a Valerian sword named Blackfyre, and due to its symbolism within the monarchy helped to build support for a rebellion or civil war. I can't remember if Griff is confirmed as a Blackfyre or if it's just a fan theory.
• Young Griff is allegedly Aegon Targaryen, one of the children supposedly killed by the Mountain before he raped and murdered Elia Martell
• Jon Connington is an exiled former hand to Aerys (the Mad King)
• Varys' betrayal of King's Landing is in relation to Young Griff, not to Dany.
• These are the guys with The Golden Company at their back, and as a note since I don't think the show mentions it this season, the Golden Company is the closest thing to a professional army in the world of ASOIAF, even though they only number 10,000 they are all extremely skilled and well disciplined
• Connington wants to court Dorne and the Vale as allies for his claim, since they have suffered the least loss of forces throughout the war of the five kings.
• Young Griff is presented as a more dutiful/fit candidate for King than the likes of Tommen since he has both been trained as an aristocrat and worked with commoners

 

[Your Weird Fetish]

No, you said opposing slavery in Essos was a radical idea. It's not. It happens, and Braavos tries to impose that opposition of slavery on other countries such as Pentos by force...exactly as Daenerys did.

It's difficult to know exactly how the escaped slaves of Braavos relate to the Slave Cities in Slavers bay. They escaped from Valyria, which once stretched to include Slavers Bay. But Braavos has been around for much longer, whereas Mereen, Astapor and Yunkai were merely colonies that flourished in the wake of the Doom of Valyria.

Meereen Astapor and Yunkai are colonies of Old Ghis technically, who were always opposed to the Valyrians.

Might be interesting in the books to see how Braavos' anti-slavery stance conflicts with their hatred of Valyrians. Y'know, if there are any more.

 

[Frazzle]

Idk if you all have read the new spoilers on FreeFolk but the ending looks like it is going to be boring as fuck.

 

[OttoWest]

Finale summary

Spoiler

Jon, Davos and Tyrion are walking through the aftermath of Kings Landing. Tyrion walks through what's left of the castle and sees Jaime's hand so he starts to uncover the rubble and he confirms both Cersei and Jaime are dead. They find Grey Worm and his men they have Lannister Soldiers trapped and they're about to kill them. Jon trys to tells Grey Worm to stop. Grey Worm tells Jon that its the queens orders. Then they cut to Dany giving a speech pretty much saying how she freed the people from Kings Landing and the new goal is freeing the rest of the world. Dany turns to Tyrion and tells him he committed treason. Tyrion tells her that she killed thousands of innocent people and he takes off the hands pin and throws it. Dany sends him to prison.

Jon goes to see her and she sitting on the Iron throne alone and John tells her that she needs to stop being a crazy bitch and that Grey Worm killed the Lannisters army from the previous scene. Dany tells Jon that she's doing it for the people. Jon pretends to understand and tricks her. When her guard is down he stabs her. Drogon comes and is standing over her body and he burns or melts the Iron throne and carries her away.

Grey Worm has Tyrion and Jon as his prisoners. The *council is (led by Sansa) tells Grey Worm to release Jon back to them but he refuses. That's when Tyrion says that the new King or Queen should decide what happens to Jon. Sam suggest for a democratic vote for the new king. Tyrion calls that idea stupid. The council votes and decide Bran Should be the King. Bran picks Tyrion as his hand.

Tyrion tells Jon that his punishment is going back to the wall and join the Knights Watch. Grey Worm accepts Jons punishment. He doesn't bend the knee leaves with his troops and Dothraki on ships to go free Slave cities. They show Tyrion leading the council. Jon says goodbye to Sansa and Arya. Arya tells them she isn't going back home. She's going to explore whatever is west of Westeros because that's where no one has been.

The final scene is a Closing montage. You see Arya on a ship, Sansa ruling Winterfell and Jon doesnt stay at the wall he reunites with Tormund and Ghost.

Council Members: Samwell Tarly the Grand Maester, Davos Seaworth Master of ships, Bronn Master of Coin and High Garden, Brienne (not sure) Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, Yara Greyjoy Lord of Iron Islands, Robin Arryn Lord of Kingdom of the Mountain and the Vale, Gendry Baratheon Lord of Storm's End, Yohn Royce Lord of Runestone, Hound doesn't get mentioned., Podrick is wheeling around Bran and he protects him.

Ellaria Sand doesn't get mentioned (i asked because she's alive). Sam mentions that they seen Drogon in some location but aren't sure. Bran just says, "ill look for him" They don't have a Master of Laws and Whisperers. Tyrion is looking for the right people to fill those spots. They don't clarify what Bran did when he was in warg during The Long Night. Did i forget to mention the most important detail about this entire episode? our good boy gets a pat from Jon.

 

[Your Weird Fetish]

I don't think her perceived rivalry is unjustified because she spent her whole life thinking she's special and suddenly this mopey schlub from the North:

-has a better birthright claim than she does
-has the support of two of the nations of westeros (the north and the vale)
-isn't an invader/outsider
-also has a group of savages willing to die for him
-can also claim magical providence (his resurrection)
-is a tested battle commander

Jon's claim is only better than hers if you're one of those autistic cunts that thought the council of AC 101 was meant to settle Targaryen succession forever. Rhaenyra did nothing wrong. #Imwithher

 

[TheWatcherofWatchers]

Finale summary

Spoiler

Jon, Davos and Tyrion are walking through the aftermath of Kings Landing. Tyrion walks through what's left of the castle and sees Jaime's hand so he starts to uncover the rubble and he confirms both Cersei and Jaime are dead. They find Grey Worm and his men they have Lannister Soldiers trapped and they're about to kill them. Jon trys to tells Grey Worm to stop. Grey Worm tells Jon that its the queens orders. Then they cut to Dany giving a speech pretty much saying how she freed the people from Kings Landing and the new goal is freeing the rest of the world. Dany turns to Tyrion and tells him he committed treason. Tyrion tells her that she killed thousands of innocent people and he takes off the hands pin and throws it. Dany sends him to prison.

Jon goes to see her and she sitting on the Iron throne alone and John tells her that she needs to stop being a crazy bitch and that Grey Worm killed the Lannisters army from the previous scene. Dany tells Jon that she's doing it for the people. Jon pretends to understand and tricks her. When her guard is down he stabs her. Drogon comes and is standing over her body and he burns or melts the Iron throne and carries her away.

Grey Worm has Tyrion and Jon as his prisoners. The *council is (led by Sansa) tells Grey Worm to release Jon back to them but he refuses. That's when Tyrion says that the new King or Queen should decide what happens to Jon. Sam suggest for a democratic vote for the new king. Tyrion calls that idea stupid. The council votes and decide Bran Should be the King. Bran picks Tyrion as his hand.

Tyrion tells Jon that his punishment is going back to the wall and join the Knights Watch. Grey Worm accepts Jons punishment. He doesn't bend the knee leaves with his troops and Dothraki on ships to go free Slave cities. They show Tyrion leading the council. Jon says goodbye to Sansa and Arya. Arya tells them she isn't going back home. She's going to explore whatever is west of Westeros because that's where no one has been.

The final scene is a Closing montage. You see Arya on a ship, Sansa ruling Winterfell and Jon doesnt stay at the wall he reunites with Tormund and Ghost.

Council Members: Samwell Tarly the Grand Maester, Davos Seaworth Master of ships, Bronn Master of Coin and High Garden, Brienne (not sure) Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, Yara Greyjoy Lord of Iron Islands, Robin Arryn Lord of Kingdom of the Mountain and the Vale, Gendry Baratheon Lord of Storm's End, Yohn Royce Lord of Runestone, Hound doesn't get mentioned., Podrick is wheeling around Bran and he protects him.

Ellaria Sand doesn't get mentioned (i asked because she's alive). Sam mentions that they seen Drogon in some location but aren't sure. Bran just says, "ill look for him" They don't have a Master of Laws and Whisperers. Tyrion is looking for the right people to fill those spots. They don't clarify what Bran did when he was in warg during The Long Night. Did i forget to mention the most important detail about this entire episode? our good boy gets a pat from Jon.

That ending sounds so fake and so stupid and yet the possibility of it actually happening is strong. I'm sure this is the peak of D & D's writing

 

[Your Weird Fetish]

So I'm seeing some interesting arguments on reddit that the linchpin that brought this story crashing down was the decision to remove Young Griff and Jon Connington, along with Quentyn Martell and the Dorne plot, because somehow those elements are going to tie everything together. The resulting patch job on the show just isn't working.

I have not read the books, and the big plot points that are left out are the things I know the least about, but would any of the book experts here care to weigh in? From what I gather, the thinking is that Griff will conquer King's Landing before Daenerys manages it, and she'll turn her dragons loose on the city out of rage and frustration.

It's entirely possible since no one knows where GRRM is going with this, but given that GRRM himself doesn't seem to know where he's going with this I doubt it's that and not just 1. The lack of material to adapt and 2. D&D being hacks.

If I had to venture a guess as to the change that ruined them, it'd be the complete re-characterization of Euron. Whose book counterpart would actually make sense as the secret final boss after the Others are defeated.

 

[Jub-Jub]

it's occured to me Dany really would have been better off storming kings landing upon arrival on westeros in season 7. Whoever told her not to blitz the red keep for humanitarian reasons is a fucking idiot. The war could have been concluded in about 30-60 minutes without any allied and minimum civilian and enemy casualties.

What a stupid plan, you must be going mad. It's much better to go around the continent to the other side and capture a useless castle and lose our entire fleet, then we'll go and attack the lannister wagon train after they captured our allies castle south of KL. After that we'll go north past the wall to capture a wight for peace negotiations.

I have not read the books, and the big plot points that are left out are the things I know the least about, but would any of the book experts here care to weigh in? From what I gather, the thinking is that Griff will conquer King's Landing before Daenerys manages it, and she'll turn her dragons loose on the city out of rage and frustration.

To add to what @Marco Fucko said

Spoiler

• The golden company was also started by house Blackfyre and there is symbolism that fAegon is a Blackfyre.
• Dorne was going to back Dany, but Quentyn gets roasted and so they will probably back fAegon instead with one of the Sand snakes Ariella?.
• There's speculation that Rob legitimized Jon as King in Da Norf before his death and the document is slowly making its way north
• Lady Stoneheart (revived Catlyn Stark) might also be looking for the document
• Stannis may have set a trap to wreck the Freys before sneaking into Winterfell wreck the Boltons.

Anyway here is my guess of D&D's inspiration for writing the final season.
♪Good night, ding-ding-ding-ding-ding♪
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2lyshg (~2.50 for Dany's writing)

 

[not william stenchever]

I always love a good Downfall meme.

r/freefolk - Hitler finds out about the ending leaks

15,718 votes and 913 comments so far on Reddit

www.reddit.com

 

[verissimus]

@OttoWest

...so Jon kills Daenerys and no one retaliates? Oh right, subervsion. Yeah...

 

[Secret Asshole]

Honestly, the best part about the finale is

Spoiler

Jon reuiniting with Tormund and Ghost beyond the wall, because that's where he belongs.

I actually really like that. Besides that its utter shit.

 

[iRON-mAn]

Braavos is a city of run away slaves, a long distance away from slavers bay. it is(or was) a secret for the longest time.

They still exist on the same continent and their trade doesn't exist in a vacuum from each other. This is like arguing that a workers strike in Brandenburg wouldn't affect grain sales in Aquitaine. Of course it would, and they wouldn't want the same sentiments taking root in their own workers.

Westeros doesn't keep slaves but it also doesn't actively stop others from doing so outside it's own borders. Braavos does. So, the idea of someone or some nation actively participating in forcing the abolition of slavery wouldn't actually be a radical concept to the Slaver Cities in Slavers Bay who would of course be aware of the issue because it would affect their ability to sell slaves and they would want to keep those notions away from their slaves.

-has a better birthright claim than she does

I really think this is a big part of it. Her entire life she's heard Robert called usurper and she continues to call the children that rule after him, through his right (despite not being his) as usurpers. The idea of a legitimate heir with a more direct claim, whether that ends up as Jon or Griff in the books, is something that she's literally never had to contend with, and she can't simply cry usurper.

Of course, she can question their claim, and Griff's backstory in the books is very suspicious, but if he does manage to take King's Landing peacefully, I can imagine her arguments being drowned out by the love of the people.

I'm not, but here's the basics of that storyline:

Spoiler

• There is a 'sister house' to the Targaryens, the Blackfyres, composed of the descendants of a Targaryen bastard who was bestowed a Valerian sword named Blackfyre, and due to its symbolism within the monarchy helped to build support for a rebellion or civil war. I can't remember if Griff is confirmed as a Blackfyre or if it's just a fan theory.
• Young Griff is allegedly Aegon Targaryen, one of the children supposedly killed by the Mountain before he raped and murdered Elia Martell
• Jon Connington is an exiled former hand to Aerys (the Mad King)
• Varys' betrayal of King's Landing is in relation to Young Griff, not to Dany.
• These are the guys with The Golden Company at their back, and as a note since I don't think the show mentions it this season, the Golden Company is the closest thing to a professional army in the world of ASOIAF, even though they only number 10,000 they are all extremely skilled and well disciplined
• Connington wants to court Dorne and the Vale as allies for his claim, since they have suffered the least loss of forces throughout the war of the five kings.
• Young Griff is presented as a more dutiful/fit candidate for King than the likes of Tommen since he has both been trained as an aristocrat and worked with commoners

The Blackfyre thing is just a fan theory, mostly because almost every part of Westeros history has wound up having some importance on the current story so why not the Blackfyres. It's going to be hella convenient though if Varys was able to find the one Blackfyre kid young enough to play fAegon and young enough to brainwash into believing it himself. I mean I can see it being true, as much as R + L = J, but it just seems like a very weird plot point given that it's only real relevance is as a funny inhistory throwback.

To add to what @Marco Fucko said

Spoiler

• The golden company was also started by house Blackfyre and there is symbolism that fAegon is a Blackfyre.
• Dorne was going to back Dany, but Quentyn gets roasted and so they will probably back fAegon instead with one of the Sand snakes Ariella?.
• There's speculation that Rob legitimized Jon as King in Da Norf before his death and the document is slowly making its way north
• Lady Stoneheart (revived Catlyn Stark) might also be looking for the document
• Stannis may have set a trap to wreck the Freys before sneaking into Winterfell wreck the Boltons.

Ariella isn't a Sand Snake. She's the legitimate daughter of Doran Martell, and heir to Dorne. She was supposed to marry Viserys, but with him being dead and her brother failing to marry Daenerys, she might marry fAegon, securing the allegiance with Dorne as you say.

 

[Your Weird Fetish]

They still exist on the same continent and their trade doesn't exist in a vacuum from each other. This is like arguing that a workers strike in Brandenburg wouldn't affect grain sales in Aquitaine. Of course it would, and they wouldn't want the same sentiments taking root in their own workers.

Westeros doesn't keep slaves but it also doesn't actively stop others from doing so outside it's own borders. Braavos does. So, the idea of someone or some nation actively participating in forcing the abolition of slavery wouldn't actually be a radical concept to the Slaver Cities in Slavers Bay who would of course be aware of the issue because it would affect their ability to sell slaves and they would want to keep those notions away from their slaves.



I really think this is a big part of it. Her entire life she's heard Robert called usurper and she continues to call the children that rule after him, through his right (despite not being his) as usurpers. The idea of a legitimate heir with a more direct claim, whether that ends up as Jon or Griff in the books, is something that she's literally never had to contend with, and she can't simply cry usurper.

Of course, she can question their claim, and Griff's backstory in the books is very suspicious, but if he does manage to take King's Landing peacefully, I can imagine her arguments being drowned out by the love of the people.



The Blackfyre thing is just a fan theory, mostly because almost every part of Westeros history has wound up having some importance on the current story so why not the Blackfyres. It's going to be hella convenient though if Varys was able to find the one Blackfyre kid young enough to play fAegon and young enough to brainwash into believing it himself. I mean I can see it being true, as much as R + L = J, but it just seems like a very weird plot point given that it's only real relevance is as a funny inhistory throwback.



Ariella isn't a Sand Snake. She's the legitimate daughter of Doran Martell, and heir to Dorne. She was supposed to marry Viserys, but with him being dead and her brother failing to marry Daenerys, she might marry fAegon, securing the allegiance with Dorne as you say.

You mean Arianne. There is no Ariella.

Also the Blackfyres had the better claim anyway since Daemon was legitimized and older, and Daeron was the bastard of Aemon the Dragon Knight. But yeah it's pretty likely that Aegon's VI's mother was the last Blackfyre.

 

[Marco Fucko]

Was this posted yet?

 

[iRON-mAn]

You mean Arianne. There is no Ariella.

Also the Blackfyres had the better claim anyway since Daemon was legitimized and older, and Daeron was the bastard of Aemon the Dragon Knight. But yeah it's pretty likely that Aegon's VI's mother was the last Blackfyre.

You're right. I typed Ariella because he typed Ariella, but I meant Arianne because I presume he means Arianne.

There's also nothing concrete to suggest that Daeron was actually a bastard, and Daemon was only legitimized on his deathbed, after he'd already taken on the Blackfyre name. As the older son, Daemon perhaps should have come first, but a son born within marriage and recognized by the Seven would always have the stronger claim.

 

[Your Weird Fetish]

You're right. I typed Ariella because he typed Ariella, but I meant Arianne because I presume he means Arianne.

There's also nothing concrete to suggest that Daeron was actually a bastard, and Daemon was only legitimized on his deathbed, after he'd already taken on the Blackfyre name. As the older son, Daemon perhaps should have come first, but a son born within marriage and recognized by the Seven would always have the stronger claim.

I bet you thought Aegon II had a better claim than Rhaenyra too.