Game of Thrones Thread

[TheWatcherofWatchers]

it's occured to me Dany really would have been better off storming kings landing upon arrival on westeros in season 7. Whoever told her not to storm the red keep for humanitarian reasons is a fucking idiot. The war could have been concluded in about 30-60 minutes without any allied and minimum civilian and enemy casualties.

You can thank Tyrion for this genius decision that costed Daenerys three allied houses.

To think what the show did to this character is so unbelievably galling.

Agreed, it sucks how dumbed down Stannis was by D & D. This was the guy who answered the call from the night's watch on his volition (unlike the show where he does so because Melisandre say so). He recognizes the threat of the white walkers and listens to the advice of Jon in allying with the north to overthrow the boltons. Instead, he's a religious fanatic who corrects people's grammar.

 

[gobbogobb]

adukenaduken • 1h

[No Spoilers] Thank you Game of Thrones
After watching last week's episode I've been thinking about sharing my story.
Today I've finally decided to share it with you.
I'm a woman in her 30s, since I was 16 I've been thirsty for dicks, I'm obsessed with dicks, this has caused many problems in my life, I couldn't get a stable boyfriend, I had 14 abortions. My family hates me because of that, I haven't talked to my dad in years. My sister doesn't want to introduce me to his husband and this year they even had kids but she doesn't want me to be around her life. My life's been a mess.
But after watching last week's episode I feel better about myself, I feel empowered. After Jon denied Dany his dick. And Dany went mad shit crazy, I realised that I'm not alone in this world. Game of Thrones highlighted Dany's mental health struggles, like mine. Addiction to dicks is a real problem, a mental health problem and people should support us, not condemn us, not make us feel bad.
Watching this show has made me feel better about myself.
So thank you Game of Thrones.
r/gameofthrones has to be the worst sub of them all.

 

[OttoWest]

One of the worst things about the abysmal failure of setting up Daenerys's evil turn is that, retroactively, every single character who believed in her, fought for her, idealized her, worshipped her, is now a total fucking idiot.

I’d argue it’s similar with Cersei. Once she completed her destruction of the Sept there was nothing for her to do but wheelspin for two seasons because the writers were determined for her to be the big bad facing down Dany at the end.

Unfortunately they tied her so inextricably to Tyrion and to Jaime (and by extension Brienne) that everything those characters did in S8 ended up ultimately being in service to Cersei, even if it meant them completely backpedaling on their own arcs and acting like total fucking idiots (the Bronn side plot bullshit)

In crafting the Cersei S5/6 plot, the character’s greatest achievement, they essentially wrote the story into an inescapable corner. They made it inevitable that Cersei would be the final big bad, rather than the Night King or any other threat. The only other solution would be to kill off Cersei and they obviously weren’t going to do that.

But in doing so they still had two seasons of tv to burn through to get us to Dany vs Cersei. So with Cersei isolated and few supporting cast scene partners (in contrast to the rest of the show where everyone is finally gathering together) they had to keep someone tethered to her to play against. Unfortunately that ended up being Jaime, even if you could argue he would’ve left her at some earlier point as he does in the books, and it was allegedly what Nikolaj was begging for them to do. D&D have always been far more invested in the Jaime/Cersei dynamic than either the plot warranted or fans demanded.

And of course the way they keep both Tyrion and Jaime with Cersei is not through any real familial attachment to one another, but with this magical unborn baby. Like right out of a daytime soap. A baby. Like neither of these guys are capable of siring their own children with other women. Like Cersei’s own machinations haven’t caused the death, including one suicide(!), of her first three kids. But oh no. This time it’s different. Right.

Everything since season 5 finale— right about the time they completely dropped the book plot— has been reverse engineered to get us to this specific endpoint with Cersei. But of course the writers utterly miscalculated how to get to their preplanned endpoint, wrote the season on a cocktail napkin and here we are. Cersei goes out with a whimper, Jaime’s character is hot trash, Tyrion looks like a hypocrite and a fool and no one is pleased.

 

[ProgKing of the North]

Okay I think this is my favorite one

 

[iRON-mAn]

That's why I said that opposing slavery is normal in Braavos..... Though Braavos seems culturally as far from slaver's bay as Antwerp from Constantinople.

No, you said opposing slavery in Essos was a radical idea. It's not. It happens, and Braavos tries to impose that opposition of slavery on other countries such as Pentos by force...exactly as Daenerys did.

It's difficult to know exactly how the escaped slaves of Braavos relate to the Slave Cities in Slavers bay. They escaped from Valyria, which once stretched to include Slavers Bay. But Braavos has been around for much longer, whereas Mereen, Astapor and Yunkai were merely colonies that flourished in the wake of the Doom of Valyria.

 

[Lemmingwise]

No, you said opposing slavery in Essos was a radical idea. It's not. It happens, and Braavos tries to impose that opposition of slavery on other countries such as Pentos by force...exactly as Daenerys did.

It's difficult to know exactly how the escaped slaves of Braavos relate to the Slave Cities in Slavers bay. They escaped from Valyria, which once stretched to include Slavers Bay. But Braavos has been around for much longer, whereas Mereen, Astapor and Yunkai were merely colonies that flourished in the wake of the Doom of Valyria.

You even quoted this part of my post:

Opposing slavery is normal in Braavos and westeros (it's what got Jorah banished), but not in slaver's bay.

 

[verissimus]

In crafting the Cersei S5/6 plot, the character’s greatest achievement, they essentially wrote the story into an inescapable corner. They made it inevitable that Cersei would be the final big bad, rather than the Night King or any other threat. The only other solution would be to kill off Cersei and they obviously weren’t going to do that.

...no. They made it inevitable Cersei would be the big bad instead of the Night King when they decided to not allow Daenerys to take King's Landing in season 7 when there was no reason to not let her do that.

 

[iRON-mAn]

You even quoted this part of my post:

Slavery is not a terrible crime in Essos

Where exactly do think Braavos is?

You're also missing the point. Braavos and the Slave cities don't operate in a bubble, devoid of contact. Braavos sits right on the edge of the slave trade, and when it's opposition to slavery affects Pentos, that affects the slave trade in Slavers Bay. Do you think that they aren't aware of this opposition? Of course they've outlawed it in their own cities because they want to keep making money but the idea of someone coming along preventing them from doing so isn't foreign to them.

Upsetting social order is what happens when one nation conquers and subjugates another. From a modern point of view it seems horrifying, but there was a time when seeing a people's way of life as backwards and seeking religious and/or cultural liberation was easily one of the most common reasons for war. It was usually a thinly veiled excuse for expansion or renown, but what do you think happened to the old laws and the old ways of life? In most instances they were either entirely removed, usually not peacefully, or integrated into the new society. We see Daenerys do the first to Yunkai and Astapor. She attempts the latter in Mereen when she re-opens the fighting pits. But none of this is particularly uncommon or strange.

 

[Emperor Julian]

I’d argue it’s similar with Cersei.

It's also going on with Jon snow, since they've decided that Jon's a classic hero who wins vs Dany and Cersai they're forced to write others around him as though he was a great leader as opposed to an honorable, likable man with a knack for swordplay. Dany for example is inexplicably anxious about him as a rival despite him being or having

-A terrible diplomat
-A mediocre commander
-being unwilling to engage in political skullduggery
-His claim looking really weak from the perspective of anyone who isnt a northerner.
-A far weaker power base than her.

But the plot demands people rally around him despite him being out of his league so we're treated as though he's Rob stark, Stannis or a Tywin lannister in terms of leadership.

 

[Lemmingwise]

Where exactly do think Braavos is?

You're also missing the point. Braavos and the Slave cities don't operate in a bubble, devoid of contact. Braavos sits right on the edge of the slave trade, and when it's opposition to slavery affects Pentos, that affects the slave trade in Slavers Bay. Do you think that they aren't aware of this opposition? Of course they've outlawed it in their own cities because they want to keep making money but the idea of someone coming along preventing them from doing so isn't foreign to them.

Upsetting social order is what happens when one nation conquers and subjugates another. From a modern point of view it seems horrifying, but there was a time when seeing a people's way of life as backwards and seeking religious and/or cultural liberation was easily one of the most common reasons for war. It was usually a thinly veiled excuse for expansion or renown, but what do you think happened to the old laws and the old ways of life? In most instances they were either entirely removed, usually not peacefully, or integrated into the new society. We see Daenerys do the first to Yunkai and Astapor. She attempts the latter in Mereen when she re-opens the fighting pits. But none of this is particularly uncommon or strange.

As far as I know Braavos and Pentos are the only of the free cities where slavery is illegal; and in Pentos it's illegal in name only with slavery rampant.

The distance between Braavos and Slaver's bay is more than the distance between the Wall and Dorne. Braavos is an anomaly in Essos regards to their views on slavery; they're radically different from the rest of Essos.

Besides I was making clear that Braavos was the outlier in Essos in my first post about it.

 

[OttoWest]

 

[Stab You in the Back]

Dany for example is inexplicably anxious about him as a rival despite him being or having

I don't think her perceived rivalry is unjustified because she spent her whole life thinking she's special and suddenly this mopey schlub from the North:

-has a better birthright claim than she does
-has the support of two of the nations of westeros (the north and the vale)
-isn't an invader/outsider
-also has a group of savages willing to die for him
-can also claim magical providence (his resurrection)
-is a tested battle commander

 

[Emperor Julian]

I don't think her perceived rivalry is unjustified because she spent her whole life thinking she's special and suddenly this mopey schlub from the North:

-has a better birthright claim than she does
-has the support of two of the nations of westeros (the north and the vale)
-isn't an invader/outsider
-also has a group of savages willing to die for him
-can also claim magical providence (his resurrection)
-is a tested battle commander

These are assets but their are some problems.
-His birthwright claim is a product of heathen wizard whose his kin and a man who has plenty of reason to hate dany so is always going to be doubted. Especially since he doesnt really look like a Valyrian and has none of their cultural trappings.
-The north is thoroughly ravaged after years of war.
-He belongs to a Minority religion (something which is a way bigger deal than being foreign) and a different ethnic group than the rest of Westeros.
-He's actually a really mediocre general compared to his peers including her. Any battle he's won has always had heavy causalities on his side.

 

[Zero0]

These are assets but their are some problems.
-His birthwright claim is a product of heathen wizard whose his kin and a man who has plenty of reason to hate dany so is always going to be doubted. Especially since he doesnt really look like a Valyrian and has none of their cultural trappings.
-The north is thoroughly ravaged after years of war.
-He belongs to a Minority religion (something which is a way bigger deal than being foreign) and a different ethnic group than the rest of Westeros.
-He's actually a really mediocre general compared to his peers including her. Any battle he's won has always had heavy causalities on his side.

Are you talking about Jon here. If yes I'm really confused.

 

[Emperor Julian]

Are you talking about Jon here. If yes I'm really confused.

Yes,
-Jon worships the old gods and is Culturally of the First men. Pretty much everyone else outside the north in Westeros follows the Faith of the seven and is an Andal. It isnt brought up much in the show but it's a bigger plot point in the books. First men are sort of a Norse/Celtic pagan culture whereas Andals are simular to Frankish Catholics.
-Watch any battle Jon is in, it's always a total shit-show where his side suffers massive causalities and he comes very close to losing.
-Over the last few seasons the north has been brutally fucked by the iron born, a Civil war and the night kings invasions. It's also in the middle of a super winter.
-Say you're some lord in one of the other kingdoms and someone tells you a wizard proclaimed Ned starks bastard is the true heir to the iron throne, would you believe them?

 

[not william stenchever]

Don't forget, before the doom the Valyrian Freehold had tons of slaves and they conquered a lot of Essos at the height of their power. It's likely that a lot of the people they conquered practiced slavery already but the dragon lords made certain its practice spread. By enslaving people. Woe to the vanquished, indeed.

 

[Mola Ram]

So I'm seeing some interesting arguments on reddit that the linchpin that brought this story crashing down was the decision to remove Young Griff and Jon Connington, along with Quentyn Martell and the Dorne plot, because somehow those elements are going to tie everything together. The resulting patch job on the show just isn't working.

I have not read the books, and the big plot points that are left out are the things I know the least about, but would any of the book experts here care to weigh in? From what I gather, the thinking is that Griff will conquer King's Landing before Daenerys manages it, and she'll turn her dragons loose on the city out of rage and frustration.

 

[Zero0]

Yes,
-Jon worships the old gods and is Culturally of the First men. Pretty much everyone else outside the north in Westeros follows the Faith of the seven and is an Andal. It isnt brought up much in the show but it's a bigger plot point in the books. First men are sort of a Norse/Celtic pagan culture whereas Andals are simular to Frankish Catholics.
-Watch any battle Jon is in, it's always a total shit-show where his side suffers massive causalities and he comes very close to losing.
-Over the last few seasons the north has been brutally fucked by the iron born, a Civil war and the night kings invasions. It's also in the middle of a super winter.
-Say you're some lord in one of the other kingdoms and someone tells you a wizard proclaimed Ned starks bastard is the true heir to the iron throne, would you believe them?

-So was ned and it didn't seem like much of a problem. I also haven't seen anyone discriminating against the starks for being of the First Men, does it even count as an ethnicity?
-Everyone is an incompetent commander in the show. Except Rob I guess.
-Dany armies should also not exist after episode 3, but if her armies respawn I guess the north does too.
-The information can be confirmed by the citadel I'm pretty sure.

 

[Judge Holden]

So I'm seeing some interesting arguments on reddit that the linchpin that brought this story crashing down was the decision to remove Young Griff and Jon Connington, along with Quentyn Martell and the Dorne plot, because somehow those elements are going to tie everything together. The resulting patch job on the show just isn't working.

I have not read the books, and the big plot points that are left out are the things I know the least about, but would any of the book experts here care to weigh in? From what I gather, the thinking is that Griff will conquer King's Landing before Daenerys manages it, and she'll turn her dragons loose on the city out of rage and frustration.

I'd like to think Daenerys gets a somewhat better push off the edge of sanity than being beaten to kings landing.

Maybe she winds up taking kings landing with Griff's aid, but he eventually betrays her with the support of the people of Kings Landing who have been thoroughly propagandised by Varys's catspaws to love him by this point and the resulting fight causes the death of at least one of her close friends/advisors and one of her dragons who was wounded in a previous battle and recovering in the dragonpit as happened a century beforehand. Combined this betrayal by her own family and the death of her loved ones and rejection from the people she fought to save is what causes her to lose her shit and burn the city down, starting with Griff who quickly proves to not be a true dragon as he burns to a crisp.

I dunno, it aint a masterful plot twist or anything but it sure as hell beats "DINGYDONGYDINGYDONGY!" as a catalyist for insanity and mass murder

 

[Emperor Julian]

-So was ned and it didn't seem like much of a problem. I also haven't seen anyone discriminating against the starks for being of the First Men, does it even count as an ethnicity?
-Everyone is an incompetent commander in the show
-Dany armies should also not exist after episode 3, but if her armies respawn I guess the north does too.
-The information can be confirmed by the citadel I'm pretty sure.

-Hard to say, if it's going to be wheeled out against Dany who presumably follows the faith of the Seven then Jon's foreignness s fair game. It's certainly culturally distinct enough for the North to opt out of the seven kingdoms.
-Yeah but even by the standards of the show he stinks. He actually all but loses the battle of the bastards but littlefinger and sansa bail him out.
-fair point.
-Possibly but I get the impression their would always be doubters, the guy who found the documents father and brother was burnt to death by dany and jon comes across about as Targaryen as Cersai comes across Iron born