Avengers: Endgame - This is the end, beautiful friend

[Absolutego]

Which one? The "they didn't even want her in and they made them!" thing? Because they announced Phase 3 in 2015 with Captain Marvel coming immediately after 'Infinity War Part 1'.

Ver archivo adjunto 739962

Like even the RLM video posted earlier they suggest they "had to put her in even with no plan" but I can't see how Feige comes out there like 4 years ago hyping his big plans for the future, announces CM was supposed to be out a year before it actually came out, and supposedly nobody actually wanted her in and they were forced to do so "because".

I think what people are trying to get at with the whole "forced Captain Marvel" concept isn't that Marvel wasn't planning to include her but more that her inclusion was a case of studio interference over directorial intent.
Which is kind of a reach given how studio-managed these films have always been, tbh. I imagine the degree to which Captain Marvel is in the film isn't far beyond what Feige and everyone else was intending around the time the two movies were shot. Maybe people are just now starting to notice when the producers intervene because they disagree with their decision?

 

[Puddleduck]

ETA: All the Cap closed time loop shit could be solved with the assumption that the timeline where he lived his life isn't the main timeline, and he just used the time suit (and maybe a machine built in the other timeline) to hop over once he got to the right point.

and let's not forget that by not returning, Cap still has one vial of Pym left over, unless he lost or broke it

 

[PoisonedBun]

The fucking prequel film is a slap in the face. I really, really cannot stand when creators do this shit.

Spoiler

I fucking loathe prequels for dead characters. And the problem is that they really, really didn't know what to do with Widow. Like, nobody really did. The closest you got was the Joss Whedon stuff in Age of Ultron, which I enjoyed and unfortunately went nowhere. When the movie got spoiled and then they were going to go get the Soul Stone I was like, 'Really? That's how they're going to kill her? Sheeeeet.' She really did NOT get a proper send-off. I just don't think she was that popular and was a dark horse. Johansson probably felt that way when she was all over the place and with them choosing Larson over her, she was like 'fuck it.' Make Widow the new Nick Fury. But nah, lets use Captain Marvel. That's what the MCU needs, a boring fucking Superman who acts like a cunt 90% of the time.

The problem with a prequel film to a fucking dead character is the character is dead. I HATE prequel shit for dead characters. Like, the character's fucking dead. Their character development is over and as they say in Game of Thrones, 'Their Watch has ended.' I really don't care how she gets over her soviet mind control or whatever shit they're going to pull. Character dead. Like I abjectly hate it. Their arc is wrapped. We know how their story ends. The shit that came before is going to have NO BEARING because it didn't exist and was never referenced by the character in the future because it technically never existed by that point. So why am I watching this?

Its not just Widow, but all characters who die and get prequel stuff. Pointless jerking off garbage. Their arcs are over. If you killed them because you didn't know what to do with them, maybe you shouldn't have fucking killed them when you finally thought of more story to tell. Sorry, but I really fucking hate this shit.

And with the Soul Stone returned, basically she should technically come back. Because again, a soul for a soul. If you return the fucking thing, you basically just borrowed it. But the lines with Banner made it very explicit. They're not bringing her back, so her stand-alone prequel is pointless to me. Gammora is obviously different.

This is just a theory but I think the entire existence of the prequel film was a meta misdirect. Think about it.

Spoiler

It was an open secret that RDJ and Chris Evan’s contracts were ending. Something was going to happen to them to put them out of commission forever. But no one expected anything to happen to Black Widow, because there were still more movies to film, right?

 

[Commander X]

I'm not going to see it, I've seen bits and pieces and now, more than ever I choose to stay away from the big cape movies. The tone appears to be all over the place like it has been for the other MCU movies I've seen parts of, at least on TV - really, really serious in a way that's both ponderous and flimsy/lightweight at the same time - suddenly whipping without warning into lukewarm sitcom snark spoken by characters, most of whom have less emotional maturity than a 15 year old. Joss Whedon and the rest have a lot to answer for, everyone like him who helped pioneer this "style" that has infested popular culture like a particularly aggressive mildew that turns to be under every wall of a house when inspectors peel back the wallpaper.

This quippy-serious formula is seen as the key to $$$$$$ by studios so don't expect a lot of anyone being allowed to do something interesting or different with the capemovie formula.

 

[Tism the Return]

Finally watched it. Not as good as Infinity War, like .5 points less good. Didn't feel like almost 3 hours, at least it was entertaining and conclusive enough to warrant spending money to watch it instead of waiting to fetch a pirated copy.

 

[CatParty]

It was good!

 

[vertexwindi]

Joss Whedon and the rest have a lot to answer for, everyone like him who helped pioneer this "style" that has infested popular culture like a particularly aggressive mildew that turns to be under every wall of a house when inspectors peel back the wallpaper.

See, when it was a bunch of California-based teenagers it was acceptable until that style of writing became popular it was found everywhere no matter the tone, and from the little I've seen of Buffy it was still capable of sincere moments. That's what particularly gets me, that so many modern works just don't have it in them to be sincere about anything.

 

[Stab You in the Back]

I also agree that this should be the end of the MCU, because I don't know how they'll be able to top this storyline. At the very least, I don't think we should get a Phase IV until a few years from now ... Obviously we won't, but I think it would be nice to give a few years worth of space between Endgame and the next Phase at least.

The first Avengers had a perfect little coda in Iron Man 3 before Phase 2 really took off with Winter Soldier and GotG. It would be interesting if the new Spider-Man flick fulfills that role and we get to experience the emotional toll of Infinity War/Endgame through Peter's eyes.

I'm willing to play Phase 4 by ear. If they keep expanding the focus and adding new characters from the comics, then I'm all peaches and cream. But if its all sequels and reboots, I'm going to be very wary. I don't think anyone wants a Falcon Cap movie or a Valkyrie Thor film.

 

[Secret Asshole]

This is just a theory but I think the entire existence of the prequel film was a meta misdirect. Think about it.

Spoiler

It was an open secret that RDJ and Chris Evan’s contracts were ending. Something was going to happen to them to put them out of commission forever. But no one expected anything to happen to Black Widow, because there were still more movies to film, right?

You're actually probably right, since any future with

Spoiler

Black Widow would be a HUGE Endgame spoiler. She hasn't even said when her contract was up or how many movies she signed on for, which is probably why its being kept close to the chest.

 

[⋖ cørdion ⋗]

Inb4, much like anime storytelling, the next movie is Hulk's 5 years in taming the beast, making his calm appearance in Endgame all the more deep. dab

 

[StarkRavingMad]

Yeah, after the events of the movie ...

Spoiler

I would much rather NOT have a Black Widow prequel movie ... Or any Black Widow movie for that matter. A prequel movie would feel pointless, and a sequel movie about "bringing her back to life" would cheapen the effect of Endgame. And hell-to-the-no on the possibility of a different character taking the Black Widow title.

Black Widow's death was mostly effective for me. I think I would have preferred Hawkeye making the sacrifice though? Not that I dislike Hawkeye-- since Age of Ultron, I think he's been an awesome character, but I think I would have felt a LOT if Hawkeye had died. He would have sacrificed much more than Natasha. He would have sacrificed seeing his children and wife again. Plus I may have preferred to have seen Widow in the final battle.

That said, though, I'm not pissed off about it, nor does it ruin the movie for me. I wanted this movie to NOT have a "Disney-fied" ending, where everything goes back to normal and everyone survives with their happy endings. That is definitely not what we got, and I think we got a much better, more satisfying movie for it.

I think that the MCU's biggest mistake, bar none, was to give Captain Marvel a movie instead giving Black Widow a movie in the Infinity Saga. If a Black Widow movie was going to happen, it needed to happen before Infinity War. Right after the release of Age of Ultron would have been the perfect timing for it. I think the window has been effectively shut, and the MCU chose to miss that opportunity.

 

[iRON-mAn]

I think that the MCU's biggest mistake, bar none, was to give Captain Marvel a movie instead giving Black Widow a movie in the Infinity Saga. If a Black Widow movie was going to happen, it needed to happen before Infinity War. Right after the release of Age of Ultron would have been the perfect timing for it. I think the window has been effectively shut, and the MCU chose to miss that opportunity.

I think a BW movie right before End Game would have definitely given the game away on her dying though, and anything pre-IW would have felt superfluous. Not giving her a movie was probably the best thing they could have done honestly.

 

[RockVolnutt]

Genuine question, was MCU Black Widow an actually popular character? Most of the attention I saw her get was mostly from being the one female member of the 2012 team and went to Wanda and Carol after they appeared/were announced. In some parallel world where the original plans with Ant-Man worked out, would she have just been overshadowed by Janet van Dyne since "lol powers" and she wouldn't be the only woman?

I could be blinded by bias or confusing popularity with being adored by the female representation crowd who aren't normally drawn to characters like Natasha.

 

[RumblyTumbly]

Black Widow was well liked. I don't know too many people that considered her their favorite, but just about every fan liked her. I don't she ever really needed a movie though. She's a character that works best with an air of mystery around her, like Nick Fury. If they were going to give her a movie, they'd probably make it an origin story of some kind, and she never needed that.

Speaking of female characters, can I just say how awful Captain Marvel was in this? I was kind of hoping that teaming her up with the Avengers with new directors would allow her to get into a rhythm, build chemistry with the others, and hopefully show some charisma. Unfortunately, having her in there with all the heavy hitters only called more attention to what a charisma-less void she is. If anything, I think this made her even worse! Like "Oh my God, you are sharing the screen with Iron Man and Spider-Man and I still hate you".

 

[RockVolnutt]

Black Widow was well liked. I don't know too many people that considered her their favorite, but just about every fan liked her. I don't she ever really needed a movie though. She's a character that works best with an air of mystery around her, like Nick Fury. If they were going to give her a movie, they'd probably make it an origin story of some kind, and she never needed that.

Speaking of female characters, can I just say how awful Captain Marvel was in this? I was kind of hoping that teaming her up with the Avengers with new directors would allow her to get into a rhythm, build chemistry with the others, and hopefully show some charisma. Unfortunately, having her in there with all the heavy hitters only called more attention to what a charisma-less void she is. If anything, I think this made her even worse! Like "Oh my God, you are sharing the screen with Iron Man and Spider-Man and I still hate you".

Don't get me wrong, I am aware how it can come off as shitting on the character which isn't the intent, I'm just unsure how much is due to Black Widow the character as opposed to "Black Widow, the only girl Avenger". In the hypothetical where we did get a Hank/Jan movie in Phase 1, I could totally see a bubbly Wasp taking the attention Widow ended up getting and Widow getting mocked for starting out as eyecandy in Iron Man 2.

 

[God of Nothing]

Black Widow was well liked. I don't know too many people that considered her their favorite, but just about every fan liked her. I don't she ever really needed a movie though. She's a character that works best with an air of mystery around her, like Nick Fury. If they were going to give her a movie, they'd probably make it an origin story of some kind, and she never needed that.

Speaking of female characters, can I just say how awful Captain Marvel was in this? I was kind of hoping that teaming her up with the Avengers with new directors would allow her to get into a rhythm, build chemistry with the others, and hopefully show some charisma. Unfortunately, having her in there with all the heavy hitters only called more attention to what a charisma-less void she is. If anything, I think this made her even worse! Like "Oh my God, you are sharing the screen with Iron Man and Spider-Man and I still hate you".

Brie Larson's own obnoxious attitude doesn't really help Captain Marvel's nonexistant charisma. It seems like most of the cast can't actually stand being around her. Honestly can't tell how much of CM is the writer's fault or Brie's. She's just a giant clusterfuck of a non-character.

 

[Scarlett Johansson]

Well.......at least she went out like a hero

Spoiler

and cleared the red from her ledger. Hawkeye still should have died. Asshole

I know it's just a movie lol but it just seems like they got stuffed into the fridge.

Btw they filmed this before BP and CM so if the screentime/characterization felt a little off, this is why. They didnt expect either characters film to be as huge

 

[Fuzhou]

Genuine question, was MCU Black Widow an actually popular character? Most of the attention I saw her get was mostly from being the one female member of the 2012 team and went to Wanda and Carol after they appeared/were announced

See, I don't agree.
I'd say they have given her so much more characterization between Age of Ultron, Winter Solider, Civil War and Infinity War/Endgame

 

[LU 010]

Don't get me wrong, I am aware how it can come off as shitting on the character which isn't the intent, I'm just unsure how much is due to Black Widow the character as opposed to "Black Widow, the only girl Avenger". In the hypothetical where we did get a Hank/Jan movie in Phase 1, I could totally see a bubbly Wasp taking the attention Widow ended up getting and Widow getting mocked for starting out as eyecandy in Iron Man 2.

I think she's unironically widely liked, and not because muh woman avenger for the most part. She's remained popular as more chicks were added to the roster, and her characterization has improved with time.

Ofc I might be biased because I'm a comicsfag and know and love the shit out of her backstory and all that. I still hope we get a prequel movie just because her whole backstory is the dankest shit.

Brie Larson's own obnoxious attitude doesn't really help Captain Marvel's nonexistant charisma. It seems like most of the cast can't actually stand being around her. Honestly can't tell how much of CM is the writer's fault or Brie's. She's just a giant clusterfuck of a non-character.

tbf IDK how many people here have read the CM comics, but her portrayal in the MCU is extremely faithful to comic canon. Much more so than I expected, actually. Possibly more so than it should have been. She's pretty no-nonsense in the comics, so I suspect the whole stoic affect is intentional. I also think that Brie of the Larson family did not execute it as well as she could have. You can make stoic badass charismatic, but the way she played it was just sort of... flat. Which is weird, because she's actually been good in other things so she's not just generally talentless.

 

[A shitty ass clover]

Spoiler

The woke moment was noticeable but okay. Cap taking Thor's Hammer was the fucking tits, that part needs a "rules of nature" edit ASAP.