Avengers: Endgame - This is the end, beautiful friend

[SteelPlatedHeart]

Shocker of shocks, it made a fuckton of money opening weekend.

 

[Tookie]

Genuine question, was MCU Black Widow an actually popular character?

I think it's more a matter of Scarlett Johansson being popular.

 

[Pepito The Cat]

You guys need to take a break from the internet war for a second. Trust me, I hate that shit too. But a split second scene of all the women characters together in a massive clusterfuck war and a unnamed gay man with five lines does not a get woke go broke movie make. It’s all fanservice for the sake of fanservice, in a movie filled with fanservice. The latter was clearly written that way so it’ll get dubbed over to be straight in foreign markets.

I agree. I rolled my eyes at the grrl power scene but it was more in a "I can't believe they were so blatant about it" kind of way. There's a shit ton of powerful women in the MCU, most of them with very good story archs and that scene felt out of place at worst. For me, at this point is just a production faux pas; like a badly placed Wilhelm scream or spotting some particularly gratuitous product placement.

The gay dude scene struck me as sad because dating in a really depressing post-apocaliptic scenario must be a bitch and gay dating ought to be 10 times worse. In fact, what weirded me out was how ok the Cap was with gay dating. I would have expected at least a facial reaction from a man from the 40s that spent little time knowing the modern ways and more time bashing heads. You can't just be super cool about something like that if your sexual awakening happened during an era where gays were imprisoned, castrated or outright killed.

 

[StarkRavingMad]

I think a BW movie right before End Game would have definitely given the game away on her dying though, and anything pre-IW would have felt superfluous. Not giving her a movie was probably the best thing they could have done honestly.

Perhaps, but I'd still take that scenario any day over a Captain Marvel movie. Black Widow earned the title of being the "first female-led MCU movie," but they completely overlooked her ... Which is lame-o.

Literally, Captain Marvel's existence in both movies she was in creates far more questions than answers. The Russos had to completely write her out for most of the movie because ... She's so OP that there wouldn't even be a movie to watch if she had been in most of it, lol. Plus, the little digs at her character in the scenes she was in: Rhodey's "new girl" comment and Rocket's jab about her hair ... Plus the KO to the face she took from Thanos. I would bet SO much money that the Russos 100% would have preferred to leave her out entirely.

Spoiler

I kind of feel like the MCU traded Black Widow for Captain Marvel by killing Black Widow off. What a downgrade for the future of the MCU!

The gay dude scene struck me as sad because dating in a really depressing post-apocaliptic scenario must be a bitch and gay dating ought to be 10 times worse. In fact, what weirded me out was how ok the Cap was with gay dating. I would have expected at least a facial reaction from a man from the 40s that spent little time knowing the modern ways and more time bashing heads. You can't just be super cool about something like that if your sexual awakening happened during an era where gays were imprisoned, castrated or outright killed.

Well, by that point, the year was 2023, and Rodgers was unfrozen in 2011 ... Which means he's lived in modern day for 12 years. Dude has seen some SHOCKING things, and the apocalypse literally happened because a giant purple man with priceless jewelry snapped his fingers.

I'd say that gay people being out in the open dating wouldn't shock Steve at this point, lol.

 

[Pepito The Cat]

I'd say that gay people being out in the open dating wouldn't shock Steve at this point, lol.

Coud be, I was just comparing it to some old dudes I've met. He obviously knew this guy was gay before us. In any case, those are the only two instances I felt Tumblr tried to creep from the window crack.

 

[XYZpdq]

Steve had been informed that it was ruled constitutional and freedom and stuff so he's okay with the gay.

 

[Next Task]

Spoiler: The Original Avengers

I do wonder if they could use the 'soul for a soul' exchange with the Soul Gem; it couldn't be used to bring Gamora back but it theoretically could happen to Black Widow. Of course, she'd most likely come back, alone, on some alien planet - but I wouldn't be mad if that's what they did for it. I liked Black Widow a lot, because when she held her own it felt like it was deserved through tactics and cleverness, even though she had no powers. I might have rather Clint sacrificed himself for the Soul Stone, but Natasha doing instead just proved she was a better fighter than he is.

But then, that five seconds Cap was gone and returning all the stones? They could make an entire movie out of just him getting them all back to where they came from. Unless there's an easier way, it would involve him not only going back to New York, but several other planets - and include re-injecting Jane Foster, possibly retrieving Loki and the 'extra' Tesseract he disappeared with, re-interfering with the start of GotG ... and then getting his happy ending while explaining how it doesn't fuck up the timeline, or at least how Cap and Peggy could ever live a quiet life considering they're both Big Damn Heroes who wouldn't be able to stop themselves from fighting the good fight.

Honestly, I'd be down for that, even with the foregone conclusion. I mean, we knew Spiderman, Black Panther and Dr. Strange at least were coming back, and that didn't lessen my enjoyment of watching how it happened at all.

As for the other original six - Hawkeye has a happy ending, but can always be brought in again if needed. Thor is hopefully in GotG 3, because especially when they let Chris Hemsworth be funny I really enjoy his presence. To me, Hulk is the biggest question, because while integrated Hulk worked for this film, it also makes him a little less interesting and I don't know where he would go or what he would do after what happened. There's room for him to turn up almost anywhere, but I'd expect him to be involved with any of the hand-off movies rather than joining an existing franchise.

Really, the films could end here and it would have been an extremely satisfying ride, for me. But they've left enough questions, and there are enough characters I care about still, that I'm still on-board. To me, they didn't whiff the ending, something no other superhero franchise has managed to do yet (looking at you, X-Men trilogies) and they had much more riding on it - and much more to incorporate - than any of the others.

Edit: Also, there was a brief 'girl power' scene in Infinity War, when the female Thanos baddie was going to stab Scarlet Witch, but Black Widow and Okoye stepped in, with Black Widow saying 'She's not alone'. This was just a full-scale version of that. It was a little cheesy, but by that point I was fine with it.

 

[Puddleduck]

Well, by that point, the year was 2023, and Rodgers was unfrozen in 2011 ... Which means he's lived in modern day for 12 years. Dude has seen some SHOCKING things, and the apocalypse literally happened because a giant purple man with priceless jewelry snapped his fingers.

I'd say that gay people being out in the open dating wouldn't shock Steve at this point, lol.

I see your point, but to utilize a Doctor Who quote, "the moon is far enough for now"

 

[iRON-mAn]

She's so OP that there wouldn't even be a movie to watch if she had been in most of it, lol. Plus, the little digs at her character in the scenes she was in: Rhodey's "new girl" comment and Rocket's jab about her hair ... Plus the KO to the face she took from Thanos. I would bet SO much money that the Russos 100% would have preferred to leave her out entirely.

I don't see it. I don't think she would have been that useful, despite her powers, nor do I see that they use her character any less than anyone who wasn't one of the original avengers (except maybe Ant-Man).

Let's say they send her back in time. A glowing woman flying through New York and Asgard would rouse suspicion. Her powers wouldn't have helped deal with with Quill or get the power stone. Even sending Nebula was kind of overpowered for that, considering the ease at which it was done. She didn't even need Rhodey's help really, he was just there to throw 'jabs' at Quill for acting like a doofus. The problem there was not knowing Nebula was on the same neural network as her past self, causing crossover, again which CM's powers wouldn't have helped with. That leaves the soul stone which CM's powers wouldn't have had any use against, and her sacrifice in such a scene would have been meaningless.

Rhodey and Rocket's comments didn't seem particularly degrading, considering they usually flippant about everyone, and she wasn't the only one who got made fun of in the movie. As for Thanos, she fought him toe to toe, just like Wanda did, and on both occasions he had to go out side of his means and strength to push them back. Yeah, she got knocked out, just like pretty much any one did after their thirty seconds with Thanos, to set up the Iron-Man sacrifice. How does this show that she's OP? Or that the Russo's don't like her? She wasn't utilized any differently in that final battle than anyone else as far as I can see.

 

[Wabbu]

Since they have a time machine, couldn't they go back in time, save Black Widow and Iron Man from dying?

It would damn two realities, but they would have their friends

 

[Dropped Burner]

Steve had been informed that it was ruled constitutional and freedom and stuff so he's okay with the gay.

I prefer that to "old man Cap is so out of touch and bigoted, he knows nothing of our modern world"

which easily could have been Cap's character in the movies

 

[XYZpdq]

I prefer that to "old man Cap is so out of touch and bigoted, he knows nothing of our modern world"
Ver archivo adjunto 740950
which easily could have been Cap's character in the movies

lol fuck that bitch I don't know who won ANY American Idol

 

[Stab You in the Back]

lol fuck that bitch I don't know who won ANY American Idol

Everybody knows Kelly Clarkson.

 

[One Man Bland]

So for people talking about time travel and movies, unless the time travel creates an alternate reality to which you cannot go back to, don't really think about it. Closed loop time travel is something you really have to hand wave away. Because then basically the entire future is changed and due to chaos theory in ways you could never, ever predict.

So yeah, for the time travel portion, its meant to be purposefully confusing so you don't think about it too much. Closed loop time travel sucks because its impossible to write, though if you want a really great one that basically says 'none of this time travel shit makes sense' read '—All You Zombies—' by Robert A. Heinlein. It basically goes to the natural conclusion of time travel in the most extreme way possible.

Really don't think about closed loop travel at all. Its a dramatic device.

Spoiler

Cap staying behind for 70 years in the same time line and having it be the same future is utterly impossible. It creates so many paradoxes.

Spoiler: Time Travel Shenanigans

Honestly out of all the paradoxes presented in the film, Cap going back 70 years is probably still the most minimal considering Peggy's husband has never been shown so he could've very have started over in the past with a new alias. Same goes for Black Widow's bones being visible on the rocks next to Gamora's body in Infinity War.

I think the problem with Endgame's time travel is that it ultimately can't decide if it's self-contained or the alternate reality variety. Most of the time characters talk as though it's self-contained - that scene where Banner talks to Tilda Swinton and she says and alternate timeline only forms if you don't put everything you took right back where you found - so it just decides to do both without caring for the questions it raises. Not even like time travel mechanic questions, but just plot questions like why they even bother with all the espionage antics when trying to get the stones if it doesn't seem to effect anything. And this is just a personal pet peeve, but I also find it weird that for all the time travel technobabble and buzzwords thrown around, no one seems to questions whether or not they'd even be able to bring the stones to the future due to the Novikov self-consistency principle, Banner doesn't even seem to get the idea to put the stones back until Tilda Swinton, so did they really just not have a plan past "get the stones"?

And on a related note, one thing I've noticed about the Russos is that they have a habit of ripping off scenes and imagery wholesale from other semi-obscure works, and Engame doesn't seem to be any different on this front. The main time travel plot bears striking similarities to Michael Crichton's Timeline - time traveling by shrinking down into a quantum plane, past is treated like an alternate universe but things that happen in it still reach the present, and that little spiel Banner gives about how killing Baby Thanos would have no bearing on the future or cause a paradox because "time is perception" is almost verbatim what a character in Crichton's book says to dismiss the question of the grandfather paradox. Which of all the time travel novels to rip off, I'm not sure why you'd go with that one rip off considering it was also lambasted for the laziness of the time travel mechanics whe it was published.

Yeah, after the events of the movie ...

Spoiler

I would much rather NOT have a Black Widow prequel movie ... Or any Black Widow movie for that matter. A prequel movie would feel pointless, and a sequel movie about "bringing her back to life" would cheapen the effect of Endgame. And hell-to-the-no on the possibility of a different character taking the Black Widow title.

Black Widow's death was mostly effective for me. I think I would have preferred Hawkeye making the sacrifice though? Not that I dislike Hawkeye-- since Age of Ultron, I think he's been an awesome character, but I think I would have felt a LOT if Hawkeye had died. He would have sacrificed much more than Natasha. He would have sacrificed seeing his children and wife again. Plus I may have preferred to have seen Widow in the final battle.

That said, though, I'm not pissed off about it, nor does it ruin the movie for me. I wanted this movie to NOT have a "Disney-fied" ending, where everything goes back to normal and everyone survives with their happy endings. That is definitely not what we got, and I think we got a much better, more satisfying movie for it.

I think that the MCU's biggest mistake, bar none, was to give Captain Marvel a movie instead giving Black Widow a movie in the Infinity Saga. If a Black Widow movie was going to happen, it needed to happen before Infinity War. Right after the release of Age of Ultron would have been the perfect timing for it. I think the window has been effectively shut, and the MCU chose to miss that opportunity.

Spoiler

I have to disagree on that front. It's been known since the Avengers film that Hawkeye saved Widow despite orders to kill her, because he saw something in her that nobody else did, and that she's felt she owed him a life debt ever since. It makes perfect sense to me as to why it's Natasha who sacrifices herself for the stone, as it signifies that she has come full circle and feels she has found a way to repay that kindness.

It's also kind of interesting that the two sacrifices shown are people who aren't "supposed" to be alive. Gamora was only spared from being killed with her mother because Thanos took a shine to her, and as mentioned above Natasha was supposed to be assassinated by SHIELD but Barton refused.

If they were going to do a prequel they really should've done it before Infinity War, or hell even after Infinity War but before Endgame would've been better if a bit spoiler-y. Hawkeye and Black Widow are the two of the main six who get the least amount of focus in ensemble films and are therefore the least fleshed out, and a fun spy flick of them together could've been a nice palette cleanser.

 

[RockVolnutt]

I prefer that to "old man Cap is so out of touch and bigoted, he knows nothing of our modern world"
Ver archivo adjunto 740950
which easily could have been Cap's character in the movies

"Those are very good points, Sally. Now I'll have you know while we're having this delightful discussion about Myspace, very good people are bashing each other heads in over the SHRA as actual villains are ignored. Please continue."

I know I said this in the #Comicsgate thread but it's honestly comical when writers focus too heavily on real world issues when capes generally deal with bigger issues in-universe. Who cares what Thor thinks about homelessness in NYC when Loki is running around and there won't be a New York if he doesn't stop him? I'm reminded of one DC comic from the 2000s where Superman points out it's not his job and if anything, it's highly irresponsible for him to comment on those things since....he's Superman, nearly everyone is just going to follow him. Pretty sure some Captain America comics express similar views where Cap supporting anything would be a shitshow because the public sees him like a demi-god and not some random jackass with a personal opinion.

 

[RomanesEuntDomus]

So, I haven't really gotten into this whole franchise mainly cause keeping up with two dozen films to fully understand all that's going on seemed like a chore, however this whole thing is way too big to simply let it pass for a movie enthusiast like me...

However, I heard today that apparently Captain Marvel gets contacted via a pager at the end of Infinity War and then shows up in Endgame to slap Thanos' shit. Is this true?

If so, is there even a point in watching the other movies, if Captain Marvel is pretty much the thermonuclear option that SHIELD uses when the rest of their guys fail, doesn't that sort of invalidate all that was ever on stake in the past movies? Sounds kinda ludicrous that Endgame builds up on 22 movies just so some random thot with only one movie and no connection to anyone else shows up to save the day. Doesn't help that Brie Larson is roughly as likeable as a cactus-colonoscopy.

 

[I'm Just A Human Bean]

So, I haven't really gotten into this whole franchise mainly cause keeping up with two dozen films to fully understand all that's going on seemed like a chore, however this whole thing is way too big to simply let it pass for a movie enthusiast like me...

However, I heard today that apparently Captain Marvel gets contacted via a pager at the end of Infinity War and then shows up in Endgame to slap Thanos' shit. Is this true?

If so, is there even a point in watching the other movies, if Captain Marvel is pretty much the thermonuclear option that SHIELD uses when the rest of their guys fail, doesn't that sort of invalidate all that was ever on stake in the past movies? Sounds kinda ludicrous that Endgame builds up on 22 movies just so some random thot with only one movie and no connection to anyone else shows up to save the day. Doesn't help that Brie Larson is roughly as likeable as a cactus-colonoscopy.

Captain Marvel does indeed show up to slap Thanos' shit. But I like the way they handled her OP powers. Without spoiling too much, they present both her strengths and weaknesses well enough that you would understand why she isn't called in every scenario. And she doesn't hog the spotlight like people feared.

 

[MI 814]

Captain Marvel does indeed show up to slap Thanos' shit. But I like the way they handled her OP powers. Without spoiling too much, they present both her strengths and weaknesses well enough that you would understand why she isn't called in every scenario. And she doesn't hog the spotlight like people feared.

What weaknesses?

 

[Tookie]

However, I heard today that apparently Captain Marvel gets contacted via a pager at the end of Infinity War and then shows up in Endgame to slap Thanos' shit. Is this true?

If so, is there even a point in watching the other movies, if Captain Marvel is pretty much the thermonuclear option that SHIELD uses when the rest of their guys fail, doesn't that sort of invalidate all that was ever on stake in the past movies? Sounds kinda ludicrous that Endgame builds up on 22 movies just so some random thot with only one movie and no connection to anyone else shows up to save the day. Doesn't help that Brie Larson is roughly as likeable as a cactus-colonoscopy.

She shows up for around 15 minutes of the movie and gets punched in the face.

 

[RomanesEuntDomus]

She shows up for around 15 minutes of the movie and gets punched in the face.

I hope it's something like this: