Avengers: Endgame - This is the end, beautiful friend

[LU 010]

Re Brie - the hair? Is she actually gonna lez out?

The hair is comics canon (and she's straight in the comics) so I wouldn't assume anything about her sexual orientation from that.

 

[Absolutego]

Bah, I'm drunk and probably shouldn't ramble on, but I feel like given the state of this thread it might need saying. Like I said previously, and have probably said multiple times in this thread, I do think I'm finally done with the MCU, and it's not for the reason people might assume. It's not because "muh social justice" or "they're inserting a political agenda into my capeshit" or whatnot, but simply because it's been less fun to follow these movies.

The original movies that established this franchise weren't groundbreaking. The first Iron Man, Thor and Captain America movies were carried by their lead actors' performances, not because of being spectacularly written or particularly experimental. The MCU was fun to follow back then because they were solid popcorn flicks (even the films that drew a lot of fan ire a la Iron Man 2 were solid films, just over-stuffed with references to the overall universe), and fan discussion mostly consisted of geeking out about what kinds of obscure nerd shit Marvel could reference in the next film. It was fun to speculate about the future of the only successful cinematic universe and revel in the fact that long-form interconnected storytelling had made its way in Hollywood.

That continued throughout phase 2 (Guardians especially, I think people have minimized in hindsight how much of a "literally who?" comic GOTG was pre-movie), but ever since last year and Black Panther/Infinity War online discussion is the same culture-war flamebait bullshit everything else on the internet is infected with. Brie Larson's insistence on politicizing Captain Marvel is a large part of why I haven't seen it, and found even the few scenes featuring her character in this movie unenjoyable, Even ITT the majority discussion is people screeching about the girl power fight scene instead of reveling in the fact that multiverses and time travel just became a concept that Hollywood suits realized normies can actually tolerate. Even places that do discuss that, like Marvel-related subreddits, insist on talking about how important the political scenes were in #CurrentYear to signify their side re: the movie's politics.

I guess I'm nostalgic for a time when the culture war hadn't affected Marvel shit yet, at least not in the mainstream. I miss back when neither the people obsessively following, nor the people actually making these films had such naked political agendas associated with their involvement. I miss when "Marvel has a Villain Problem" was the gossipy bullshit dominating tabloid film discussion instead of "These Marvel fans are sexist/racist and that's why Marvel Movie #16 did/didn't do poorly at the box office!". We just had a movie that featured Hulk talking for its entirety yet 95% of the "spoiler-free" reviews make a point of stating how minimal Captain Marvel's role is vs. saying that.

It feels needlessly condescending to say I've "outgrown" these movies and their online discussion but I definitely do feel as if everything's moved past me somehow. If it floats your boat, have fun, but for me the quality of these movies no longer outweighs the frustrating nature of its online discussion, which was a huge part of why I liked the original films. As I originally predicted, this movie served as a good exit point. I hope the future movies serve well enough to fuel whatever culture war everyone is obsessed with fighting.

EDIT: tl&dr:

 

[iRON-mAn]

I'll probably see where the franchise is going before I bow out. I mean I was going to see Spider-Man 2 and GotG 3 anyway, and even Doctor Strange I found much more enjoyable recently when I rewatched it, so who knows maybe even Strange 2 won't be terrible. But I'd be interested in seeing what the plan is from here before calling time on it so soon.

About the after-credits scene. There wasn't a scene per-say, but there was some clinking/hammering over the top of the final Marvel Studios card. A re-design? Dwarves? A Bob the Builder cross-over? Seemed like a hint at something I'm not savvy enough to figure out.

 

[Muttnik]

I'll stick around to see what they do with X-Men, if only to see them do Rogue better than the last incarnation. She was always one of my faves.

Other than that, yeah, this is the end for me too. It was a good run and I'm glad I experienced it. But you gotta go sometime.

 

[guccigash]

The hair is comics canon (and she's straight in the comics) so I wouldn't assume anything about her sexual orientation from that.

That's a relief. Don't get me wrong, I love me some big dyke energy as much as the next gal......just not used as virtue signalling where it corrupts the original text.

Like the opposite of what happened to every adaptation that involved a lesbian relationship like, uuuuh, ever.

 

[LU 010]

That's a relief. Don't get me wrong, I love me some big dyke energy as much as the next gal......just not used as virtue signalling where it corrupts the original text.

Like the opposite of what happened to every adaptation that involved a lesbian relationship like, uuuuh, ever.

As a general rule I enjoy lesbianism in my characters (as long as it's not super woque) but I kinda dig the whole "no romance at all" deal they have going on with her so far. Lots of superhero romances are real forced and it's unusual enough for a character not to have one at all that it makes it kinda interesting. I kinda hope they just stick with the "nah fuck all that" thing for now. I'd rather devote more time to dive-bombing through spaceships and shit.

 

[SteelPlatedHeart]

I'll probably see where the franchise is going before I bow out. I mean I was going to see Spider-Man 2 and GotG 3 anyway, and even Doctor Strange I found much more enjoyable recently when I rewatched it, so who knows maybe even Strange 2 won't be terrible. But I'd be interested in seeing what the plan is from here before calling time on it so soon.

About the after-credits scene. There wasn't a scene per-say, but there was some clinking/hammering over the top of the final Marvel Studios card. A re-design? Dwarves? A Bob the Builder cross-over? Seemed like a hint at something I'm not savvy enough to figure out.

I just assumed it was a callback to Tony making the first suit.

 

[KillThemCrackasBabies]

That continued throughout phase 2 (Guardians especially, I think people have minimized in hindsight how much of a "literally who?" comic GOTG was pre-movie), but ever since last year and Black Panther/Infinity War online discussion is the same culture-war flamebait bullshit everything else on the internet is infected with. Brie Larson's insistence on politicizing Captain Marvel is a large part of why I haven't seen it, and found even the few scenes featuring her character in this movie unenjoyable, Even ITT the majority discussion is people screeching about the girl power fight scene instead of reveling in the fact that multiverses and time travel just became a concept that Hollywood suits realized normies can actually tolerate. Even places that do discuss that, like Marvel-related subreddits, insist on talking about how important the political scenes were in #CurrentYear to signify their side re: the movie's politics.

I guess I'm nostalgic for a time when the culture war hadn't affected Marvel shit yet, at least not in the mainstream. I miss back when neither the people obsessively following, nor the people actually making these films had such naked political agendas associated with their involvement. I miss when "Marvel has a Villain Problem" was the gossipy bullshit dominating tabloid film discussion instead of "These Marvel fans are sexist/racist and that's why Marvel Movie #16 did/didn't do poorly at the box office!". We just had a movie that featured Hulk talking for its entirety yet 95% of the "spoiler-free" reviews make a point of stating how minimal Captain Marvel's role is vs. saying that.

Pre YouTube vlog culture vs. Post YouTube vlog culture.

That's it. That's literally the only thing that's changed. If Captain Marvel had come out in 2010, exactly as it is now, you wouldn't have noticed anything "culture war" related about it in the slightest. You're confusing stuff you're specifically seeking out or are hearing because you following specific channels and are seeing it all the time, that's why.

The 'girl power' shot is dominating discussion here because "the culture war" dominates a significant chunk (imo actually a majority) of discussion in one way or another. The vast majority of the population isn't seeing it that way. Same reason for the subreddits, they're highly specific areas of discussion that more or less unconciously encourage such discussion by requiring new and niche topics to keep the talk flowing back and forth.

Like log off of YouTube for a week and don't watch anything "nerd culture" where clickbait vloggers are actually seeking attention, and you'll see it less and less.

 

[RockVolnutt]

That's a relief. Don't get me wrong, I love me some big dyke energy as much as the next gal......just not used as virtue signalling where it corrupts the original text.

Like the opposite of what happened to every adaptation that involved a lesbian relationship like, uuuuh, ever.

In the comics, she went from the same style she had as Ms. Marvel to this cockatoo look to the "dyke cut" before just returning to the long hair. It's supposed to resemble the metal fins on top of Kree helmets but it's very rare to see her with a helmet on. I'm happy they went back to long hair in the comics because I haven't seen many people who like the helmet or the "dyke cut".

 

[TerribleIdeas™]

That's a relief. Don't get me wrong, I love me some big dyke energy as much as the next gal......just not used as virtue signalling where it corrupts the original text.

Like the opposite of what happened to every adaptation that involved a lesbian relationship like, uuuuh, ever.

I honestly thought Endgame handled both lesbian characters really well.

On the topic of the "girl power shot" in the movie, it really wasn't all that overdone, and I'm no fan of the SJW yammering about representation.

 

[Secret Asshole]

So for people talking about time travel and movies, unless the time travel creates an alternate reality to which you cannot go back to, don't really think about it. Closed loop time travel is something you really have to hand wave away. Because then basically the entire future is changed and due to chaos theory in ways you could never, ever predict.

So yeah, for the time travel portion, its meant to be purposefully confusing so you don't think about it too much. Closed loop time travel sucks because its impossible to write, though if you want a really great one that basically says 'none of this time travel shit makes sense' read '—All You Zombies—' by Robert A. Heinlein. It basically goes to the natural conclusion of time travel in the most extreme way possible.

Really don't think about closed loop travel at all. Its a dramatic device.

Spoiler

Cap staying behind for 70 years in the same time line and having it be the same future is utterly impossible. It creates so many paradoxes.

The captain marvel thing was just probably some random rumor. The Russo's did have to put her in, but it was obvious she was very, very tertiary. And they REALLY have to stop writing her like a cunt. Its like they write her good and Kevin Feige gives some notes and goes, "No you see, write her like a strong and independent woman." And they keep getting those notes back until they write her like a completely and totally unlikable fucking cunt. They seriously need to work on that character, because as it stands, even for the time she's in the movie its an 'ugh'. And she's in it for maybe 5 minutes.

The multiple ending thing was probably shot so that nothing was given away. Sometimes studios do this, so the 'increased role of Captain Marvel' was just smoke and mirrors to conceal what really happened. Same with the leaks that never turned out true, like Captain Marvel being an infinity stone or some crazy shit.

Spoiler

I loved the part where she was fighting Thanos and Thanos was like 'fuck this shit' and took out the power stone and flicked her out of the state

The girl-power scene was there for some reason? I don't know why, but it was probably Feigie's idea. I mean, you had the female fight scene in Infinity War and that was nowhere near as cringy. There were plenty of women in the ending fight, but them coming together randomly was way too forced.

I'm still really upset about

Spoiler

Widow. She is my favorite character. They ruined it.

I know the prequel film is coming but it feels like a slap in the face.

The fucking prequel film is a slap in the face. I really, really cannot stand when creators do this shit.

Spoiler

I fucking loathe prequels for dead characters. And the problem is that they really, really didn't know what to do with Widow. Like, nobody really did. The closest you got was the Joss Whedon stuff in Age of Ultron, which I enjoyed and unfortunately went nowhere. When the movie got spoiled and then they were going to go get the Soul Stone I was like, 'Really? That's how they're going to kill her? Sheeeeet.' She really did NOT get a proper send-off. I just don't think she was that popular and was a dark horse. Johansson probably felt that way when she was all over the place and with them choosing Larson over her, she was like 'fuck it.' Make Widow the new Nick Fury. But nah, lets use Captain Marvel. That's what the MCU needs, a boring fucking Superman who acts like a cunt 90% of the time.

The problem with a prequel film to a fucking dead character is the character is dead. I HATE prequel shit for dead characters. Like, the character's fucking dead. Their character development is over and as they say in Game of Thrones, 'Their Watch has ended.' I really don't care how she gets over her soviet mind control or whatever shit they're going to pull. Character dead. Like I abjectly hate it. Their arc is wrapped. We know how their story ends. The shit that came before is going to have NO BEARING because it didn't exist and was never referenced by the character in the future because it technically never existed by that point. So why am I watching this?

Its not just Widow, but all characters who die and get prequel stuff. Pointless milking garbage. Their arcs are over. If you killed them because you didn't know what to do with them, maybe you shouldn't have fucking killed them when you finally thought of more story to tell. Sorry, but I really fucking hate this shit.

And with the Soul Stone returned, basically she should technically come back. Because again, a soul for a soul. If you return the fucking thing, you basically just borrowed it. But the lines with Banner made it very explicit. They're not bringing her back, so her stand-alone prequel is pointless to me. Gammora is obviously different.

Its a shame Fiegie is a huge faggot and doesn't tie the TV shows in. But then again this guy thinks the charisma vacuum of Captain Marvel is good enough to carry the universe.

All in all, I thought it was a really good send off for most of the original cast. Others really drew the short straw. It really was Downey and Evan's movie though. I also do not see how they're going to be able to capture the magic of the past 10 years. I know they've got WAY more material to work with. But they basically did the biggest story they could.

Also with the Netflix shows, Netflix has a two year non-compete. So it'll at least be four years before any of those characters are ever used again. And Agents of Shield was never referenced in the movies and only slightly affected by them. Its kind of sad, but w/e.

The Scarlet Witch and Vision show is set in the fucking 50s, so they're already doing the multiple timelines and versions thing.

 

[Jace E. Denton]

marvel sucks ahha batman rules

 

[TenMilesWide]

Spoiler

And with the Soul Stone returned, basically she should technically come back. Because again, a soul for a soul. If you return the fucking thing, you basically just borrowed it. But the lines with Banner made it very explicit. They're not bringing her back, so her stand-alone prequel is pointless to me. Gammora is obviously different.

Imagine if the widow prequel idea is a jape and they actually rez her lol

ETA: All the Cap closed time loop shit could be solved with the assumption that the timeline where he lived his life isn't the main timeline, and he just used the time suit (and maybe a machine built in the other timeline) to hop over once he got to the right point.

 

[Silent Observer]

Meh. I was underwhelmed. In terms of a fangasm film, it delivers everything, but in terms of storytelling, it was very bland, generic, and bloated. It wasn't unwatchably bad, but it wasn't rewatchably great either imo.

 

[Absolutego]

Pre YouTube vlog culture vs. Post YouTube vlog culture.

That's it. That's literally the only thing that's changed. If Captain Marvel had come out in 2010, exactly as it is now, you wouldn't have noticed anything "culture war" related about it in the slightest. You're confusing stuff you're specifically seeking out or are hearing because you following specific channels and are seeing it all the time, that's why.

The 'girl power' shot is dominating discussion here because "the culture war" dominates a significant chunk (imo actually a majority) of discussion in one way or another. The vast majority of the population isn't seeing it that way. Same reason for the subreddits, they're highly specific areas of discussion that more or less unconciously encourage such discussion by requiring new and niche topics to keep the talk flowing back and forth.

Like log off of YouTube for a week and don't watch anything "nerd culture" where clickbait vloggers are actually seeking attention, and you'll see it less and less.

YouTube vlog culture has been a thing for the entirety of this franchise's existence. I understand none of this culture war shit is in the minds of normies, what I'm bemoaning is that the online fandom has become so shitty. Without the whole online meta discussion these are just average blockbusters, which is why I don't think I'm going to keep watching these going forward.

 

[iRON-mAn]

The fucking prequel film is a slap in the face. I really, really cannot stand when creators do this shit.

Spoiler

I fucking loathe prequels for dead characters. And the problem is that they really, really didn't know what to do with Widow. Like, nobody really did. The closest you got was the Joss Whedon stuff in Age of Ultron, which I enjoyed and unfortunately went nowhere. When the movie got spoiled and then they were going to go get the Soul Stone I was like, 'Really? That's how they're going to kill her? Sheeeeet.' She really did NOT get a proper send-off. I just don't think she was that popular and was a dark horse. Johansson probably felt that way when she was all over the place and with them choosing Larson over her, she was like 'fuck it.' Make Widow the new Nick Fury. But nah, lets use Captain Marvel. That's what the MCU needs, a boring fucking Superman who acts like a cunt 90% of the time.

The problem with a prequel film to a fucking dead character is the character is dead. I HATE prequel shit for dead characters. Like, the character's fucking dead. Their character development is over and as they say in Game of Thrones, 'Their Watch has ended.' I really don't care how she gets over her soviet mind control or whatever shit they're going to pull. Character dead. Like I abjectly hate it. Their arc is wrapped. We know how their story ends. The shit that came before is going to have NO BEARING because it didn't exist and was never referenced by the character in the future because it technically never existed by that point. So why am I watching this?

Its not just Widow, but all characters who die and get prequel stuff. Pointless jerking off garbage. Their arcs are over. If you killed them because you didn't know what to do with them, maybe you shouldn't have fucking killed them when you finally thought of more story to tell. Sorry, but I really fucking hate this shit.

And with the Soul Stone returned, basically she should technically come back. Because again, a soul for a soul. If you return the fucking thing, you basically just borrowed it. But the lines with Banner made it very explicit. They're not bringing her back, so her stand-alone prequel is pointless to me. Gammora is obviously different.

Spoiler

The Prequel might end up being set in Budapest, which they keep referencing. Doesn't make it much more relevant but I can see them using that to tie it back to the main franchise even though it's left her behind.

Imagine if the widow prequel idea is a jape and they actually rez her lol

ETA: All the Cap closed time loop shit could be solved with the assumption that the timeline where he lived his life isn't the main timeline, and he just used the time suit (and maybe a machine built in the other timeline) to hop over once he got to the right point.

And stole the shield from somewhere.

 

[CatParty]

 

[KillThemCrackasBabies]

The captain marvel thing was just probably some random rumor. The Russo's did have to put her in, but it was obvious she was very, very tertiary.

Which one? The "they didn't even want her in and they made them!" thing? Because they announced Phase 3 in 2015 with Captain Marvel coming immediately after 'Infinity War Part 1'.

Like even the RLM video posted earlier they suggest they "had to put her in even with no plan" but I can't see how Feige comes out there like 4 years ago hyping his big plans for the future, announces CM was supposed to be out a year before it actually came out, and supposedly nobody actually wanted her in and they were forced to do so "because".

 

[One Man Bland]

Which one? The "they didn't even want her in and they made them!" thing? Because they announced Phase 3 in 2015 with Captain Marvel coming immediately after 'Infinity War Part 1'.

Ver archivo adjunto 739962

Like even the RLM video posted earlier they suggest they "had to put her in even with no plan" but I can't see how Feige comes out there like 4 years ago hyping his big plans for the future, announces CM was supposed to be out a year before it actually came out, and supposedly nobody actually wanted her in and they were forced to do so "because".

I'm not sure how this image proves that Captain Marvel wasn't a late addition to Endgame when it's pretty well known that Feige has been trying to find an Avengers film to shove her into since Age of Ultron and a lot of CM's production history paints a troubled picture with tons of delays, rewrites, and changing hands. Comparing the production of the two films, Endgame was being shot around the same time as Infinity War and was practically over when shooting for Captain Marvel was barely at the half-way point. Of course people are going to speculate that she was a late-comer to the script and therefore had the least amount of forethought given those circumstances.

 

[StarkRavingMad]

https://youtube.com/watch?v=dAni8PwSvSA

They hit the nail on the freakin' head about Captain Marvel. She is just the worst. And while she doesn't ruin Endgame for me, I still have SO MANY questions about her place in the MCU's continuity. Let's just say that it's so much easier for me to just ignore that the Captain Marvel movie ever happened, because that solo movie doesn't explain why she's here in Endgame. At all.

I also agree that this should be the end of the MCU, because I don't know how they'll be able to top this storyline. At the very least, I don't think we should get a Phase IV until a few years from now ... Obviously we won't, but I think it would be nice to give a few years worth of space between Endgame and the next Phase at least.

Spoiler: Nerd response about Thanos' strength in these movies ... lol

At the beginning of Infinity War, when Thanos and the Black Order attack Thor's ship, he has the Power Stone and fights the Hulk before he gets the Space Stone. If you pay attention, Thanos does NOT use the Power Stone to defeat the Hulk, so he defeated the Hulk all on his own. And it looks like he didn't use the Power Stone to knock out Thor (before he did use it on Thor to get Loki to give him the Tesseract, that is).

I don't know; I think it's pretty consistent with how the final battle in Endgame went. /shrug

Also, the true key to defeating Thanos isn't brute strength. The key is to best him intellectually. In Infinity War, Star-Lord's plan actually worked (before Star-Lord screwed them up, lol). The plan wasn't to beat him up; the plan was to trap him and get the Gauntlet off. Like I said in a previous post, Thanos is a smart fighter. He manages to outsmart the Avengers in almost every way in battle (even the Scarlet Witch). This is why it was pretty much destined for Iron Man to take him down.

For me, it works.