Has Social Justice supplanted Religion? - Listen and Believe

[Lemmingwise]

Body count isn’t high enough yet to make it a religion.

That's because we're not yet counting the transgender suicides and abortions towards that death count.

 

[heyilikeyourmom]

That's because we're not yet counting the transgender suicides and abortions towards that death count.

I’m talking about the number of enemies they’re willing to put into the ground for their beliefs. Suicides don’t count because all parties involved want to be dead. There’s no interpersonal conflict.

 

[The Fool]

Body count isn’t high enough yet to make it a religion. They need at least one crusade against non-believers, five terror attacks against infidels, or ten staged suicides of vocal dissenters before I’d support the IRS giving them a tax break.

how many idiotic riots have they had about nothing? Maybe no bodycount but it's definitely a display. There probably would be a bodycount if they weren't so impotent.

 

[Give Her The D]

That's because we're not yet counting the transgender suicides and abortions towards that death count.

I've always wondered what the non-religious reasons people would be against abortion for. What would those be?

Because religious purposes are the big one I think of.

 

[Dutch Courage]

It's just a modernized hippie bullshit fad that will wind up turning on itself and imploding. There is already evidence that is starting to happen. There is no overarching framework, and it is self-contradictory in multiple ways. The very meaning of the term woke is not even agreed upon by those who use it. It also tends to crumple in the face of any pushback.

 

[Give Her The D]

It's just a modernized hippie bullshit fad that will wind up turning on itself and imploding. There is already evidence that is starting to happen. There is no overarching framework, and it is self-contradictory in multiple ways. The very meaning of the term woke is not even agreed upon by those who use it. It also tends to crumple in the face of any pushback.

It's just a fad that'll wear itself out like the hippies of the 1960's.

 

[The Fool]

It's just a modernized hippie bullshit fad that will wind up turning on itself and imploding. There is already evidence that is starting to happen. There is no overarching framework, and it is self-contradictory in multiple ways. The very meaning of the term woke is not even agreed upon by those who use it. It also tends to crumple in the face of any pushback.

It's just a fad that'll wear itself out like the hippies of the 1960's.

I want to agree and under ordinary circumstances I would, but now we have the issue of the corporate machine ensuring this culture is enforced upon society whether they like it or not. Alternatives are basically impossible at this point, look at how secluded and hidden we are at this site. Even if it dies on a cultural level, we'll be forced to comply with it on a business/social level.

 

[Foxxo]

I want to agree and under ordinary circumstances I would, but now we have the issue of the corporate machine ensuring this culture is enforced upon society whether they like it or not. Alternatives are basically impossible at this point, look at how secluded and hidden we are at this site. Even if it dies on a cultural level, we'll be forced to comply with it on a business/social level.

The trend shall die, just wait for an economic recession.

 

[Jozef]

Body count isn’t high enough yet to make it a religion. They need at least one crusade against non-believers, five terror attacks against infidels, or ten staged suicides of vocal dissenters before I’d support the IRS giving them a tax break.

The way they defend all aspects of Islam, we might as well just refer to Islamic extremism as woke, left-wing ideology.

 

[Foxxo]

I already refer to modern politics as a religion, maybe even a religion replacing classical religions. Christianity is weakening, but that doesn't mean some sort of age of enlightenment, but a new religion is taking it's place. I avoid people who show interest in politics like I avoid mad cultists. And Twitter is their church (compound?)

Atheism is dying out worldwide, by the way, as the "new religions" don't encourage having kids.

 

[Give Her The D]

The way they defend all aspects of Islam, we might as well just refer to Islamic extremism as woke, left-wing ideology.

Islam will save the west. - no sane individual, probably

 

[Queen Elizabeth II]

I want to agree and under ordinary circumstances I would, but now we have the issue of the corporate machine ensuring this culture is enforced upon society whether they like it or not. Alternatives are basically impossible at this point, look at how secluded and hidden we are at this site. Even if it dies on a cultural level, we'll be forced to comply with it on a business/social level.

I don't know about that.

While I think Wokeness has the makings of a new religion, I do think there is a potential for a pushback. Christianity itself looked like it was doomed for two years when Emperor Julian took over and decided to make it his personal mission to shit all over Christianity from the top down; had he not died on campaign it's very likely he would have succeeded.

Both America and the UK have very loudly declared a distaste of Wokeness in refusing to elect their respective left wing parties that espouse these views. It's becoming increasingly clear elsewhere such as France that they've not appetite for several core woke tenants such as the stance on immigration since people have been trying to assassinate Macron on a semi-regular basis. There were protests and riots in Ireland and Germany this week against the EU on this aspect.

I think it's possible Wokeness could see the rise of its own Charlemagne, but it's not guaranteed since wokeness while making some grounds is also reciving significant pushback as other religions have. Some triumph as Islam and Christianity did, others like Manichaeism and Zoroastrianism as ancient and venerable as some of them are fade into obscurity.

 

[Sperghetti]

That's really interesting. I never knew about those "seven dimensions" before, so thank you. I've often thought of wokeness or the social justice movement as a sort of a cult: Among other things, it exhibits a lot of the earmarks of an abusive relationship (lovebombing, isolation, volatility, guilting/manipulation, etc.) while also professing strict moral guidelines that need to be adhered to.

I would also say that for wokeness, "supernatural" can likely be substituted with "public opinion". Their driving goal isn't to get an entity or force to acknowledge that they've lived a virtuous life, it's to get other people to acknowledge it. They use the phrase "right side of history" in the same way fundamentalist Christians talk about God: An omnipotent force that is someday going to reward them, and prove that they were right all along.

And here's some food for thought: Nearly all major religions provide some way that sinners can redeem themselves, either through ritual, repenting for their former behavior, adhering to strict guidelines, etc. However, sin in wokeness is correlated to innate characteristics that are unchangable... except in the case of trooning out.

 

[Oskar Dirlewanger]

It's not a new religion, it's still the same religion.

- weakness is better than strength
- weakness is sacred, something to be proud of
- all weak, degenerate subgroups are special, it's a badge of honour to be a member of these groups
- all instincts born out of strength and striving for strength are bad (or "evil", "problematic", "racist" etc.)
- all instincts born out of weakness and striving for weakness are good (or "tolerant", "progressive" etc.)

The jews have been pushing the exact same shit for the last 2000 years. From time to time the surface level gets "soft rebooted", but the underlying motiff remains untouched.

 

[Lemmingwise]

I've always wondered what the non-religious reasons people would be against abortion for. What would those be?

Let me approach it by asking a couple of questions.

Is it worse to kill a pregnant woman than a non-pregnant woman?

(There are 38 American states that count it as a double murder).

If I push a clearly pregnant woman down the stairs maliciously and this causes her to miscarriage, is that crime equal to pushing a non-pregnant woman down the stairs, all injuries being equal?

---

I think abortion is morally indefensible. What's inside is alive, human and vulnerable. Before I ever thought about it in depth, abortion seemed reasonable and responsible.

In the end it mostly comes down to the weird question of when it becomes human, at conception, at x weeks, at birth. Many countries that legalize abortion have a limit at how many weeks it can be done.

Though from a personal perspective I have to say that I was influenced by one experience. During the time where I was overthinking this issue (I tend to spend a month or two researching subjects in spare time), overhearing a doctor reassure a patient that if the baby came out alive "he would take care of it". The inflection in his voice made clear what he meant; to end its life.

It really was the nail in the coffin.

I think there are some gray areas, like rape conception, where I would make it legally permissable murder, but I can't see how one can argue it isn't a type of murder.

I don't see how one needs religion to reason about this subject. Though I must admit that changing my mind on this subject has given me a greater respect for the people that respectfully protest against abortion, which are almost invariably religious people.

 

[wtfNeedSignUp]

More like a cult than religion:
1. Wokeness encourages its members to cut ties with family that question it doctorine.
2. Members of the Wokeness can have their lives ruined over trying to quit it or question it.
3. Wokeness is the source of good, anything that goes against it must be evil. There is no black and white.
4. You must support Wokeness financially/politically, usually by consuming things made by the right people.
5. Wokeness is completely contradictory and changes its tenents to be the most beneficial in a given moment.
6. Your worth is measured by how much you can constribute. If you are a big person politically or financially then you get a larger stage.

 

[Queen Elizabeth II]

More like a cult than religion:
1. Wokeness encourages its members to cut ties with family that question it doctorine.
2. Members of the Wokeness can have their lives ruined over trying to quit it or question it.
3. Wokeness is the source of good, anything that goes against it must be evil. There is no black and white.
4. You must support Wokeness financially/politically, usually by consuming things made by the right people.
5. Wokeness is completely contradictory and changes its tenents to be the most beneficial in a given moment.
6. Your worth is measured by how much you can constribute. If you are a big person politically or financially then you get a larger stage.

Does it need to be one or the other? There's a similar framework used by scholars to classify cults, and several minor religions including the Jehova's Witnesses and Moonies have been controversially classified as just that. While I agree with your list above, all of those points apply just as equally to Christianity (I don't intend that as a slur, more that various denominations have been found doing most if not all of the above).

 

[wtfNeedSignUp]

Does it need to be one or the other? There's a similar framework used by scholars to classify cults, and several minor religions including the Jehova's Witnesses and Moonies have been controversially classified as just that. While I agree with your list above, all of those points apply just as equally to Christianity (I don't intend that as a slur, more that various denominations have been found doing most if not all of the above).

I think that for modern religions (at least in the west) the vast majority of believers don't fall into what I mentioned. Yeah, there will be some outliers of assholes using the religion as a way to abuse others, but for everyone else the religion gives a sense of community and help without ever changing that much.
With wokeness it is the opposite. There is no real community, just people scrambling to appease the guys at the top.

 

[Lemmingwise]

I’m talking about the number of enemies they’re willing to put into the ground for their beliefs. Suicides don’t count because all parties involved want to be dead. There’s no interpersonal conflict.

Some like the Reimer boys are too young to know what theyre choosing.

 

[Comandante Marcos]

Perusing the "tenets" of Wokeness as y'all have postulated them, I'm thinking that we may be looking at a neo-Crowleyite leaderless cult. It is similar to, say, LaVey Satanism where the ego (self) of the Woke person is akin to a deity (LaVey said that the only true god is the ego and pleasuring the ego is the point of existence). IIRC the whole basis of Crowley's worldview was that narcissistic worship (worship of the self) was the point of life and that "Do as thou wilt is the whole of the Law", meaning that there were no limits on the Divine Self's behavior.

There are also some elements of Nazism/Hitlerism too, where the things that divide "worthy" from "unworthy" are biological and immutable. (For many centuries, Jews could avoid persecution by converting to Christianity or Islam. Hitler said that the qualities that make a Jew Jewish are biological and not based on a belief system. This was utterly unique in the history of European antisemitism.) Hitler was rumored to be into Crowleyite "Black Magick", so he may have taken Crowley's self-worship and made it a worship of self based on tribal lineage.

Likewise, Wokeness emphasizes the supremacy of tribal lineage in determining one's place in the hierarchy. White women are inferior to Black women due to the Black woman's greater history of oppression. In that sense, Wokeness is similar to the Black Supremacist cults of the Caribbean, especially Rastafarianism where whites are scum and blacks are supreme. It's a form of inverted Nazism, where white men are at the bottom and black women (especially lesbians) are at the top.

The interesting thing about Wokeness is that it lacks a defining source, such as a prophet. The vast majority of human faiths revere a giver of the revealed Truth. Wokeness does not, and the only other major faith I can think of that is likewise is Hinduism, which is popular in some form among many young Americans. The problem with cults in general is that they revere a single person as the source of Wisdom, and when that person dies the cult usually dissolves since their deity is no longer present. Wokeness doesn't have this issue, so it may last where other faiths fail.

As for the problem of discouraging reproduction, the Shakers solved that by operating orphanages where abandoned youths were indoctrinated into the faith. The end of the American orphanage system after WW2 destroyed the last remnants of the Shakers. It remains to be seen how the Woke solve the issue. This is their biggest achilles heel IMO.