Undertale / Deltarune / Toby Fox Discussion

[JoshPlz]

Undertale was my first exposure to the whole they/them shit. It took me half of the game being confused by it and then several google searches to understand that singular individuals were being called "they" and why. I immediately found that to be the most retarded shit ever and still do.

 

[You Can't Un'Ape The Doe]

I immediately found that to be the most retarded shit ever and still do.

No don't you understand, everything is a social construct you horrible nazi ice fascist amerikkka uncle tom nigger (but in a left-wing way) bigot

yeah it's all pretty retarded. Even if you try to argue that "none of it is true but its better to affirm someone's gender identity'" thats still not psychologically or statistically true. Affirming delusions doesn't help people

 

[Symbol of the Chud]

Some more interesting items for Noelle that basically confirm that unless Toby reworks all the flavour text for every item in the game, Noelle isn't going to be joining the party in any sort of typical way. They also feel possibly romantic, too.
Scarlixer

.. fine, you can have the LAST DROP. [When using it on Noelle; unused]

Doing this heals Noelle by 155 and Kris by 5
Then there's the fuckin MistleWP, which is a whip made out of mistletoe.

... ah? [When attempting to equip it on Noelle; unused]

Mistletoe being the holiday season associated plant that two lovers are expected to kiss under.
There's other interesting stuff, like Noelle asking Kris to do the strings on the GreenApron up for her, and also saying this when you equip her with the AquaKnife (she can actually equip it)

That's, um, nostalgic

The fuck do you mean it's nostalgic, Noelle? Why are knives nostalgic, you fucking crazed schizo?
Though it could add on to the theory that Noelle and the other three kids used to play Dark World games as pretend? Noelle is visibly upset when you give Tenna away to that fag Mettaton, too.

 

[Gay Sex Enjoyer]

The fuck do you mean it's nostalgic, Noelle? Why are knives nostalgic, you fucking crazed schizo?

Not to stop you on the skitzo roll but isn't Aqua supposed to be based on young Kris?

Equipping a knife outright based on young Kris evoking feelings of nostalgia for Noelle, the girl that thinks about when she and Kris were kids all the time, seems perfectly reasonable.

 

[Symbol of the Chud]

Not to stop you on the skitzo roll but isn't Aqua supposed to be based on young Kris?

Equipping a knife outright based on young Kris evoking feelings of nostalgia for Noelle, the girl that thinks about when she and Kris were kids all the time, seems perfectly reasonable.

I mean, maybe you could go with that explanation, but it's still a pretty fuckin weird connection for her to immediately make. It is after all still a knife. Even if Aqua is somewhat based on a younger Kris.
It really feels like we should know more about Kris and Noelle in their youth, but it feels like Susie is stealing away all such opportunities by having Noelle talk about irrelevant meaningless bullshit with her instead.

 

[You Can't Un'Ape The Doe]

It is after all still a knife. Even if Aqua is somewhat based on a younger Kris.

Hometown is a gated neighbourhood, it's not like she's out in the streets of Oblock or London. Her main associations with knives are probably Kris and anything she herself could have potentially used them for, so it makes sense.

Also do you know what to add to a list of reasons susie x noelle will fail? I've made a small one already but you're bound to know more about it than I

Though it could add on to the theory that Noelle and the other three kids used to play Dark World games as pretend?

Could explain why the save star light was "familiar"

 

[Big Shot]

Amazing how much faith you people still have in this game having any sense of direction or vision after Toby took the leashes off his tranny dev underlings in chapter 5. Be ashamed of yourselves.

I've started to believe in the "filler" theory. He dreamed of the ending, made the first chapter as a demo, then exhausted all the jokes he had in the second chapter

The rest of the game is filler bullshit he's making up on the go

 

[Symbol of the Chud]

Also do you know what to add to a list of reasons susie x noelle will fail?

The single biggest reason is how the two of them feel about pre-determinism. Susie thinks that the prophecy is great, and that being one of the three heroes who has a role already planned out for her by the universe is amazing. She loves being a Susie doing a Susie thing, and the actual confirmation that is something that is real to her has given her newfound purpose, with her only qualm being the unknown panel she shattered.
Noelle on the flip-side would be horrified beyond all reasonable belief to find out that such a thing exists. Even going through life normally, she's still managed to somewhat figure out that not all is as it seems. She is a Noelle, and she can only do Noelle things. Her weird and oddly forced feeling love for Susie in that regard may even be her attempt to break free of what Noelle is supposed to do, an attempt to 'do something crazy'. Only for the prophecy to effortlessly account for that, too. How do you think Noelle would react if she found out that the thoughts in the back of her mind were all justified. That she really can only do Noelle things?
Noelle is somebody who wishes to be free, even if it means defying her purpose.
Susie is somebody who wishes to have a purpose, even if it means being prisoner to fate.

I wonder if you could use Deltarune as a backdrop for a discussion on Predeterminism, Fatalism and Determinism...
Noelle representing the idea of Fatalism, Ralsei Predeterminism, and the player Determinism.
Noelle believing that the outcome will always be the same regardless of what happens.
Ralsei believing that the future has already been decided as per the prophecy.
The player representing Determinism as a third party that is able to see the 'future' and operate 'outside' of it, therefore breaking the grip Fatalism and Predeterminism may have.

I've started to believe in the "filler" theory. He dreamed of the ending, made the first chapter as a demo, then exhausted all the jokes he had in the second chapter

The rest of the game is filler bullshit he's making up on the go

You don't understand, Toby Fox dreamed of 7 Tumblr Sexymen in his dream all those years ago. For real.

 

[scallion]

anything she herself could have potentially used them for

Every beat of her character aligns with being a cutter so we're on the right track

 

[You Can't Un'Ape The Doe]

The single biggest reason is how the two of them feel about pre-determinism.

Thats pretty informative, cheers lad. I do also wonder how much foreshadowing there is of it in interactions and dialogue and such

wonder if you could use Deltarune as a backdrop for a discussion on Predeterminism, Fatalism and Determinism...

Eh I mean it's not intellectual enough for that. I'm sure you could do a massive autistic rant about it but it would be extrapolating a lot

Toby Fox dreamed of 7 Tumblr Sexymen in his dream all those years ago. For real.

I don't think anyone would the describe the blugger as "sexy"

Every beat of her character aligns with being a cutter so we're on the right track

That'd be interesting (maybe) but I don't think Toby is gonna go that direction with her. I mean she was raped in the WR but having something real bad (even tho the narrative affirms it) happen to someone is different from portraying someone doing bad things to themselves.

 

[Cryogonal2]

Seth: male or female? I see a lot of people divided on this subject, but I think Seth is flower

 

[You Can't Un'Ape The Doe]

but I think Seth is flower

Flowers still have genders. No matter how much Seth mutilates herself, she will always be a woman

 

[Lapsus of the bepsus]

The fuck do you mean it's nostalgic, Noelle? Why are knives nostalgic, you fucking crazed schizo?

we know kris carries a knife around in the light world, maybe he always did? wasnt he even more of a freak before the red soul?

i dont see why noelle wouldnt become a party member again, i think its all but confirmed by the fact these exist. could be normal route as well, maybe after the big susie reveal when noelle and kris become closer again

 

[Slumbie]

 

[Smack Patrick]

Seth: male or female? I see a lot of people divided on this subject, but I think Seth is flower

Seth is obviously based on Patchouli Knowledge from Touhou and the first porn image I saw of Seth she had massive honkers.
Ergo Seth is female.

 

[Symbol of the Chud]

That'd be interesting (maybe) but I don't think Toby is gonna go that direction with her. I mean she was raped in the WR but having something real bad (even tho the narrative affirms it) happen to someone is different from portraying someone doing bad things to themselves.

I'm almost certain now that Noelle either having attempted suicide or having suicidal thoughts/ideation was originally planned for her character, but a troonsquad member may have talked Toby out of it. The unused Noelle Cyberworld Room that has pills all over the table, her longing to do something crazy, her means of escape being framed in what appears to be a suicide pact to drown herself (even if that's not what happened). Queen's being vastly over-protective for her specifically.
My own theory about Noelle which I've spoken of before is that it's possible that she has actually tried to top herself before, only to survive inexplicably. Just like what happens in the aborted weird route at the lake where Noelle goes full "Nothing ever happens" mode.
Makes you wonder if the "Save Points" here aren't anything to do with the Power of 'Determination' like in Undertale, but are instead the Prophecy exerting itself on the world itself. After all, the only two times Determination have been mentioned in the story were by Queen, and both times she was either directly or indirectly referring to Noelle.

There's also something very strange Ralsei says all the way back in Chapter 1 when first introducing the battle mechanics, that don't make any sense for somebody who believes in the prophecy.

* That's a SOUL, the culmination of a HUMAN's being!
* Not only does it represent one's WILL and COMPASSION...
* But it also has the power to DETERMINE FATE.

Ralsei knows that the Prophecy was never unbreakable, just that only a SOUL can do it. Shady little bastard.

Seth: male or female? I see a lot of people divided on this subject, but I think Seth is flower

Flowers can have what are scientifically referred to as male or female reproductive organs, too, with both male and female flowers. So it's less gay if you just say Seth is a girl interested in Chadly.

Seth is obviously based on Patchouli Knowledge from Touhou and the first porn image I saw of Seth she had massive honkers.
Ergo Seth is female.

Illusion of Gaia, actually.
Seth is named Morris in the JP version of Deltarune, just like in the JP Illusion of Gaia where Seth is named Morris.


This will not stop me from calling Seth a girl, though.

 

[Gay Sex Enjoyer]

The player representing Determinism as a third party that is able to see the 'future' and operate 'outside' of it, therefore breaking the grip Fatalism and Predeterminism may have.

0:25

 

[Symbol of the Chud]

i dont see why noelle wouldnt become a party member again, i think its all but confirmed by the fact these exist.

Yeah, but the proof is in the fact that those exist.
All of Noelle's party dialogue heavily implies that it's just her and Kris alone.

affff (online-video-cutter.com).mp4

Kris is about as big a bitch as Anakin was, yeah.
At least Anakin got to have sex with the girl who groomed him though. Unlike gameless Kris.

 

[You Can't Un'Ape The Doe]

but a troonsquad member may have talked Toby out of it.

Ehhh at best she might have thought of it, but I don't think she would ever act on it. Also I think queen would at least be smart enough to recognize something was amiss with the pills if thats what they were used for (though maybe not).

All of Noelle's party dialogue heavily implies that it's just her and Kris alone.

Like the one of her giving a drop to Kris? Anything else?

gameless

Kris has game he's just getting cucked by the universe. Hell even Ralsei seems to want to fuck him, though its clearly not mutual.

I wished Toby would lean more into Kris feeling disgusted by Asriel being romantic with him, and the player forcing Kris to be overly sentimental/flirty with Ralsei. Waiter waiter, more rape for Kris! Toby could still go that route but I don't think he will, or at least it'll be a secondary thing

 

[Gay Sex Enjoyer]

At least Anakin got to have sex with the girl who groomed him though. Unlike gameless Kris.

Ahem