Undertale / Deltarune / Toby Fox Discussion

[Symbol of the Chud]

We're really going to get "Noelle tried to kill herself with Kris!" discourse from retards for the next 3 years, aren't we?

 

[Smokin' Niggardly Fags]

0:06

 

[Gay Sex Enjoyer]

 

[Super Guido]

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Flowery looks a bit constipated. I'd react that way too, if I was Rudy.

 

[Retarded Weeb]

I don't think there's actually any history between Ralsei and Flowery, even though it comes off that way. I think Ralsei's problem with Flowery just has to do with Flowery being a Plantner who's aware of the Dark World's mechanics and felt no hesitation to use them to his advantage, unlike Ralsei.

This goes back to my theory that the Dark World is using RPG mechanics in-universe because it's a recreation of a game which the characters are supposed to play along with. Here's how I think it works.

• Darkners are completely a part of the game, and so are strictly tied down by its rules. They're objects given anthropomorphic form and conscious by the Dark World, based off the idea of using them as game pieces in a game of pretend to represent characters. They're basically all NPCs and have no deeper awareness of the game-ness of the Dark World, and will take stats as true and such.
• Lightners (humans and monsters) who enter the Dark World are player characters. When they enter the Dark World they become a RPG-ified version of their real self. They're effectively LARPing. Susie, Noelle, and Berdley are ignorant to how the Dark World functions, and the latter two in particular thought it was just a dream they were going along with, so they're also tied down by game mechanics because they just accept that's how it works.
• And then there's the flowers in Chapter 5, who going off what Ralsei says, they're basically Lightners in the sense they're living beings from the Light World, but the Dark World has a greater effect on them that's similar to how it makes Darkners, where the plants gain anthropomorphized forms and a higher level of consious where they can be sapient. Since Ralsei says they're neither Lightner or Darkner and they kind of act like an in-between two of the two, it's why we've taken to calling them Plantners, but it's important to recognize that they're effectively more Lightner than Darkner as they're living creatures who aren't an inherit part of the Dark World like a Darkner. They're not NPCs.
• So what if a Lightner was aware that it was just a game? That's where Flowery comes in with his "fake stats". Flowery recognizes how the Dark World works and isn't tied down by its rules, so he can just make shit up to cheat if wants to, just a person could do when playing a game IRL. There seems to be a limit to how this works if put against another Lightner who can do the same, as seen with the Knight, but it seems like this works perfectly when interacting with Darkners and anyone who's playing by the limitations of the game.
• People have been speculating on whether Kris is holding back, due to some of the stuff he's done before, but I think it might tie into this. Kris and Knight are both Lightners who know how the game works. Kris is limiting himself into following the game for whatever reason, but he could "cheat" if he really wanted to. And the Knight can counter Flowery's bullshitting by bullshitting itself into saying Flowery's attacks did no damage. I'm actually starting to think that this is what Ralsei's weird line in responce to the Knight swooning Susie, "How could you...?" is referring to. It's not a moral judgment, it's Ralsei being surprised at the Knight breaking the rules to instantly KO Susie outside of combat.
• And finally that brings us to Ralsei. He's even a Plantner himself if the tree theory is real, or otherwise he's some special Darkner who's fully self-aware and not tied down by the rules. Judging by how he acts, it seems like Ralsei is something like a DMPC. He's the one leading Kris and Susie through the game and trying to make sure it stay mostly on track, but he also needs to act as their third party member to help them through combat and puzzles. But he needs to do so while keeping within the bounds of the rules, so he artificially makes his stats low and turns himself to fluff when KO'd to keep up appearances. In actuality, he could easily cheat and do whatever he wants, which we see a few times. He wants to break the prophecy (ie. the way the game is supposed to go), but he also for whatever exact reason thinks he needs to keep the game running smoothly or else something worse with happen.
• So finally, that just leads to why he doesn't like Flowery. Ralsei says it himself, he thinks Flowery is a conceited jerk who's ignoring the rules and doing whatever he wants, ruining the game that Ralsei needs to keep running. Ralsei could do the same thing, he could do whatever he wants to try and get a different outcome, and he wants to do that, but he also in some way can't. That's why he hates Flowery, because his carefree disregard for the rules feels like it's turning Ralsei's internal struggle into a joke.

 

[Based Boy]

Yeah, the fight itself is great, but there is zero appeal or interest to it outside of the mechanics. I get you need to take things down from chapter 4 to raise them back up, but the secret bosses were always where the nugets of the REAL plot were suggested. Last shadowshard boss and it's nothing.

All of the plot relevance for Mew Mew were the lyrics all blatantly alluding to the Weird Route.

I don't know if this point is disproved by any context within the story or if anybody already explained this point of view, but the most plot relevant and the most endearing way i can interpret this character goes something like this:
Mew Mew is Alphys toy that simultaneously wishes for her owner happiness and wishes to be by Alphys side for as long as possible, which is hard if she dates. That is from where her problem with dating comes from. This is basic motivation and why she appears.
What is more interesting is the song that plays during her fight. If you assume that lyrics to this song is not some Japanese babble with a little bit of foreshadowing just because Troony Fox needed to put vocaloid song in to feel cool and epic and gender affirming and transjapanese, but an actual song directed at someone, and that this someone is Alphys, than lyrics become very... interesting.
First and third part of the song explains how Alphys got to where she is and what she must do:
"A wish that surpasses hell..." - two possible interpretations 1. Deltatroone only based: a wish to stop whatever going to happen in chapter 7 without any knowledge about Undertale universe. 2. Undertale based: regret that she couldn't do anything during genocide/near genocide route and wish to change that during whatever going to happen in chapters 6 and 7.
"The world's massacre, this time beneath the water." - Allusions to Undertale genocide route that will happen under the lake this time.
Other lyrics, in my view, just a pep talk from a mascot, beloved by Alphys. I guess there is a lot of "She" in there, so at least you can rule out Kris and other genderfluids or whatever. And it can't be the player, because only manly chuds and men in dresses play Toby Fox games.
Second part of the song is direct appeal to Alphys with lyrics, in my view, suggesting that Mew Mew's one and only true heartfelt wish is for Alphys to succeed.
This is as far as i can stretch it.
All that only to be blown up by Freedom(TM) Bomb at chapter 7. Or she can just hang in the church until chapter 7 ends. Sucks to be Alphys, i guess.

Also, there is a lot of talk about this chapter being the weakest one, but, if i am not mistaken, part 3,4 and 5 were originally suposed to be released at the same time, which is why chapter 5 feels so disapointing. Everybody were expecting some big reviels, but instead there is only more questions. But if you pretend that chapter 3, 4 and 5 is just one big chapter, than it actually not that bad, in my view(Outside of tranny stuff). Especially if you consider route B. Right now, everybody feel like there is almost no wierd route content, but if chapter 4 went straight into chapter 5 without one year wait, it would be pretty epic and everyone would've loved it.

 

[VVilford Brimley]

 

[Symbol of the Chud]

Darkners are completely a part of the game, and so are strictly tied down by its rules. They're objects given anthropomorphic form and conscious by the Dark World, based off the idea of using them as game pieces in a game of pretend to represent characters. They're basically all NPCs and have no deeper awareness of the game-ness of the Dark World, and will take stats as true and such.

I'm pretty sure that this applies to most normal Darkners, except the Secret Bosses, who can all pretty much break the rules too. Jevil is the least cheaty (his thing is more the ability to use every attack pattern), but the others are all sorts of fucky.
Spamton NEO in Snowgrave just goes "fuck you, here's my invincibility mode, I win.", even though Kris isn't holding back as much as he normally is which requires Noelle to kill him.
The Roaring Knight is the Roaring Knight, and just cutscene beats you even if you win.
Gerson can just dodge every single attack thrown his way.
Pink can't take any fucking damage.

Though the secret bosses all have their own shit going on.

 

[my penis is on fire]

See, I don't mind the flower designs when they commit more to their human counterparts (and when Blue is drawn more feminine).

Why does almost every single fan design of the fallen humans make Blue a nigger? It was like that even before Chapter 5 made it official. Why always that one specifically? Is the idea of drawing a white ballerina just that horrifying to tumblrgroids?

 

[Retarded Weeb]

I'm pretty sure that this applies to most normal Darkners, except the Secret Bosses, who can all pretty much break the rules too. Jevil is the least cheaty (his thing is more the ability to use every attack pattern), but the others are all sorts of fucky.
Spamton NEO in Snowgrave just goes "fuck you, here's my invincibility mode, I win.", even though Kris isn't holding back as much as he normally is which requires Noelle to kill him.
The Roaring Knight is the Roaring Knight, and just cutscene beats you even if you win.
Gerson can just dodge every single attack thrown his way.
Pink can't take any fucking damage.

Though the secret bosses all have their own shit going on.

Well of those, Jevil and Spamton are the only two who are normal Darkners, but boosted by some higher level awareness due to their Shadow Crystals and interactions with Gaster/Knight/whoever.
The Roaring Knight is presumably a Lightner, though they have something going on with them.
Gerson is technically a Darkner, per how Ralsei explains it, but he's special because he's formed from the real Gerson's ashes, and likely is possessed by the real Gerson's will, so he can likely also follow Lightner rules.
Pink is possessed by the Mad Dummy('s ghost), so she's basically half Darkner (the body) and half Lightner (the spirit).

 

[Symbol of the Chud]

You know, the lamest thing about this chapter is the extents it went to to make it impossible to just beat the flowers using FIGHT.
Like, sure, I know the lore reason is because they're not actually Darkners and depleting their HP in the Dark World would apparently just fucking kill them, but it's still gay as fuck.

 

[Super Guido]

You know, the lamest thing about this chapter is the extents it went to to make it impossible to just beat the flowers using FIGHT.
Like, sure, I know the lore reason is because they're not actually Darkners and depleting their HP in the Dark World would apparently just fucking kill them, but it's still gay as fuck.

I don't understand why it couldn't have just ended the fight if you got their health down past a certain point.

 

[Symbol of the Chud]

I don't understand why it couldn't have just ended the fight if you got their health down past a certain point.

Toby Fox would need to donate 1$ to BLM for every point of damage done to the Blue Nigger.
If Ralsei wasn't such a faggot we probably could've just Fireshocked Blue to instantly kill him.

 

[howtohatemyself]

See, I don't mind the flower designs when they commit more to their human counterparts (and when Blue is drawn more feminine). Actually would have been kino going up against each soul colour with our red one, with Flowery being the combination of all of them. Maybe would have made the final battle with Flowery mean more if we understood who all these humans used to be (or what memories the flowers have of their past selves), so when they combine their powers together it is literally: "with our powers combined/my friends by my side."

There is a really good chapter in here somewhere which is the most infuriating part.

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Just thinking on from this.

Fuck, can you imagine a Chapter 5 where Kris and Susie arrive in a perfect little Dark World that is inhabited by these flowers? They have their specific roles, routines, relationships -- we're talking the quintessential ideal small village. Asgore has his own house and there seems to be little incentive for him to leave, as with our heroes. Why would anyone? Everything has its place and role, everyone is friendly. They protect each other from aggressive denizens of the Dark World. Spats and arguments do occur between them but they are sorted out by their resident Justice Soul. But the kicker is that these flowers genuinely think they are humans. After all, they look the part and have memories of life before the Dark World. Some Bladerunner-esque questions of what makes a human are going on here.

In the actual Chapter 5, Flowery does bring up why Castle Town gets to stay but their world can't. Let's expand on this.

The biggest underlying issue is that this world can only exist due to the Dark Fountain, which our heroes cannot allow to remain open. This immediately creates tension because it isn't the flowers' fault -- they're living peacefully. So, what happens when our heroes are forced to close the Dark Fountain? Suddenly, all these nice 'humans' we've been getting to know and grow fond of either turn on us or are forced to stop us. Asgore himself also positions himself against us. Maybe instead of trying to solve the 'incident' all that time ago, he's chosen to run away from it and live in peace. But that can never last. And through a final battle against him and Flowery, he starts to see the error of his ways. He is able to convince the 'humans', still coming to grips with just being flowers, to give up their Dark World. But because they are neither human or monster, they will disappear with it. Imagine the tearful goodbye this would cause, between Asgore and them, the happy memories of Rudy through Flowery, and our heroes who have spent the chapter getting to know them. The devastation! The tragedy! Happiness is just a memory but that is a fact of life.

Perhaps the Roaring Knight turns up as well. Who would the flowers side with? Maybe the Roaring Knight initially since they're against our heroes. But, the Knight actually pins the flowers against Kris, Susie and Ralsei so once either party is defeated, it'd be easier to steal Asgore away.

Like, I'm spitballing here, but holy fuck is there a better chapter to be found. I'm so fucking annoyed because Toby could have gone in almost any other direction than he did and the end result would have been better.

 

[Gay Sex Enjoyer]

Why does almost every single fan design of the fallen humans make Blue a nigger? It was like that even before Chapter 5 made it official. Why always that one specifically? Is the idea of drawing a white ballerina just that horrifying to tumblrgroids?

 

[LoogerLike]

Ralsei could do the same thing, he could do whatever he wants to try and get a different outcome, and he wants to do that, but he also in some way can't.

He also offers to just do everything in every dark world to keep Susie (and the player) from reading the end of the prophecy. Him and Kris are just fucking around at this point for Susie and the player, both of them could probably deal with each dark world by themselves.

 

[Two Dollars]

Why does almost every single fan design of the fallen humans make Blue a nigger? It was like that even before Chapter 5 made it official. Why always that one specifically? Is the idea of drawing a white ballerina just that horrifying to tumblrgroids?

They tend to overcompensate blackness into typically-white attributes. It’s the same reason why nerdy characters are often depicted as black.

 

[Super Guido]

Like, I'm spitballing here, but holy fuck is there a better chapter to be found. I'm so fucking annoyed because Toby could have gone in almost any other direction than he did and the end result would have been better.

Your idea is amazing, and that's why Toby won't ever hire someone like you.

 

[Symbol of the Chud]

Asgore himself also positions himself against us. Maybe instead of trying to solve the 'incident' all that time ago, he's chosen to run away from it and live in peace

Please god, no. Asgore has suffered enough, he doesn't need to fall victim to childish delusions of "everything is OK" too. (Save that for Susie)
While his vagueposting was frustrating, and he does feel a bit wasted, the lack of an Asgore boss battle is probably better for his character than having him fight his own son he loves for the sake of the fucking flowers in his shop that have been sentient for all of a few hours (and will wither and die in a matter of days because flowers can't exist without light even moreso than normal Lightners.)
All Asgore needed to do was have some level of ability to resist the Knight.

Also fuck me, I just remembered that Rudy is also a fan of Dragon Blazers, which seems to be the rules that Dark Worlds run off.

 

[Super Guido]

While his vagueposting was frustrating, and he does feel a bit wasted, the lack of an Asgore boss battle is probably better for his character than having him fight his own son he loves for the sake of the fucking flowers in his shop that have been sentient for all of a few hours.

Maybe he wouldn't realize it's Kris at first, but stops once he does.