Undertale / Deltarune / Toby Fox Discussion

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Chapter 4 establishes that the creation of a Dark World invokes some emotion from the creator to influence what it looks like and how it all fits together. Kris has been going to church for a while, whereas Susie is new to it. Kris' Sanctuary is more uniform and meticulous in its details, whereas Susie's is messy, inaccurate and seems to based on challenging traditions rather than abiding by them (as indicated by the petrified flute people and the wafer scholars questioning their origin).

So then why the fuck is the Flower King dark world the exact same when the Knight makes a second fountain as Kris seals the first one?
In Chapter 4, once you reach the third sanctuary inside the actual church sanctuary, it recreates the first sanctuary as well once the darkness pools into the foyer again. Perhaps the first dark fountain was made by the Knight as well as the second in the flower shop, which is why it happened.
 
Last shadowshard boss and it's nothing.
All of the plot relevance for Mew Mew were the lyrics all blatantly alluding to the Weird Route.
Shadow Crystals according to Seam are:
"The power of lost dreams.
When a strong attachment is formed... when a dream is gripped tightly... and then broken off."

Oddly enough, when you use a Shadow Crystal/the glass on the Chapter 5 Weird Route, the only thing you get is:
"* "
One could perhaps say then, that the weird route is the player forcing a lost dream back to being real. Or maybe I'm looking too deeply into things.
Another interesting part about Shadow Crystals is that Spamton doesn't know what he knows because of his, because his Shadow Crystal isn't his at all. It's Mettaton's. The NEO Body was Mettaton's lost dream. Spamton knew so much because he made a deal with Big G to become a [BIG SHOT].
Barring Jevil who we still kinda know fuck all about (Who the fuck did he meet?), every single other Shadow Crystal Holder has had at least something to do with Lightner's lost dreams. Spamton NEO = Mettaton NEO's dream, Knight = Who fucking knows, but light world related, Gerson = the next generation never picking up the pen, Mew Mew = finding a perfect body for herself that she knows can't last.
 
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^fact
 
In Chapter 4, once you reach the third sanctuary inside the actual church sanctuary, it recreates the first sanctuary as well once the darkness pools into the foyer again. Perhaps the first dark fountain was made by the Knight as well as the second in the flower shop, which is why it happened.
I feel there's something to be said about both Kris and the Knight being able to bring monsters back from the dead within their Dark Worlds, while Susie can only make horrible statue zombies.
Feels like we're tying back to Undertale in a big way again. How was Flowey created? Monster dust was sprinkled on a flower that was then injected with Determination extracted from a human SOUL.
How did Kris' dark world bring Gerson back to life within the Dark World? Monster dust was sprinkled on a hammer that was then suffused with darkness created by Kris' Determination. Humans (especially the Red Soul) always have more determination than Monsters in Undertale, too.
And the Knight has that same sort of ability to create Dark Fountains that bring back the dead like Kris.
 
So I'm in the middle of my second playthrough via my weird route file. I'm doing the "aborted" weird route since I could always quickly activate Side B later if I need to and I might as well keep my system save file clean of it for now just in case. I've got another three things that have come to mind or I want to share.

So there's been some speculation on whether the game's world is literally a game or simulation in-universe due to Ralsei and Flowery bringing up game mechanics and the UI. I'm thinking it's actually just supposed to be a Dark World thing, and not that that Hometown on the whole is a simulation. I have a couple reasons for this. First off, remember how Toby really didn't have there to be save points in the Light World at first? And even after he begrudgingly added some to Chapters 4 and 5, the game still gives you this message the first time about how it shouldn't be there and they're more faint than in the Dark World, as if to try and scream "This is just a gameplay abstraction unlike the ones in the Dark World." The other thing is that you can't access the config menu at all from the Light World. I've been annoyed by this a few times, but now with it being brought up in dialogue in Chapter 5, I think it's actually an intentional choice for the story. I suspect all the gameplay abstractions, even being able to access the config menu, are an in-universe part of the Dark World, so that's why there's as little of it as possible in the Light World.

My theory right now as to what this is supposed to be tied to the whole think in Chapter 3 about how Kris and a girl (Dess or Noelle) would use the objects that have been in Dark Worlds as pieces in a grand game of pretend they were having that seems to maybe also be based of Dragon Blazers (based off Gerson's book based off the prophecy). I think the whole thing that Ralsei keeps hinting at when he talks about needing to hold back and how not doing things properly will "ruin" it (ruin what?) is that the Dark Worlds are literally a big game. Like they're a manifestation of this game Kris and the girl were playing as kids, so they follow game rules. Ralsei is trying to make sure the integrity of the "game" is kept, which is why he hold back to act like a standard party member and insists Kris and Susie solve puzzles or clear obstacle in the proper game-like way. If Ralsei just used his full power to instantly solve everything like he actually could, then it would ruin the game.

Second thing, I've noticed that the bonus bosses have been rewarding weapons for the party members in a pattern.
Devilsknife - Susie
Puppet Scarf - Ralsei
Black Shard - Kris
Justice Axe - Susie
Flowery Scarf - Ralsei (though he can't use it until next chapter)

Thinking about it, these last couple chapters focused on Susie and Ralsei respectively, with them getting character development egged on by Gerson and Flowery, who they then inherit ultimate weapons from.
Following the pattern, perhaps Kris gets a new ultimate weapon in Chapter 6?

Shadow Crystals according to Seam are:
"The power of lost dreams.
When a strong attachment is formed... when a dream is gripped tightly... and then broken off."

One could perhaps say then, that the weird route is the player forcing a lost dream back to being real. Or maybe I'm looking too deeply into things.
Funny enough, this is related to the third thing I wanted to talk about. I was looking through comments on a Japanese video for the Chapter 5 weird route scene, and someone gave a really interesting theory. Since Shadow Crystals are made from lost dreams, and Noelle if you abort the route here talks about her dream of breaking free not coming true and she gives up on ever just being a Noelle who does Noelle things, perhaps a new Shadow Crystal was created from this that doesn't exist on any other route.
 
I have a feeling that that aborted weird route will have a much different ending than any of the other routes. I cannot see Noelle changing back to any semblance of her "normal" self after that.
Well, it could be that the prophecy is so vague you can get two different endings while technically following the prophecy.

Just like in Undertale we "clear" the underground from monsters. Either by breaking the barrier, or whiping everyone out.

It could also be that something happens during chapter 6-7 that can lead both

I feel like it's going to be interesting either way, if the ending of Deltarune is something that drove Toby Fox 14 years ago into making Undertale and Deltarune
 
https://youtube.com/watch?v=qkUTuN8Nlis>Let's proceed with Mew Mew Magic
>The world's massacre, this time
beneath the water

What did Miku mean by this?
"I don't understand these lyrics!"
She doesn't have a fucking clue.

I have a feeling that that aborted weird route will have a much different ending than any of the other routes. I cannot see Noelle changing back to any semblance of her "normal" self after that.
I predict Aborted Weird Route Noelle freezing everyone in Castle Town in order to grow strong enough to take the SOUL from Kris by force.
With some dialogue changes for if it was aborted in Chapter 4 or 5. Which... gives me an idea. The Cold Place outside of TV World might SEEM random, but...
Cold_Place_location.png
I think that the "Cold Place" is also probably referencing the "games" that Noelle and Kris used to play, as said by Ramb.
* Time flies... Seems like just yesterday you and that girl had everyone here lined up.
* Queen on her side, King on your side, Tenna in back... Oh, it was chaos, CHAOS!
* Heh, only kids like you two would take a laptop home just to play make believe.
* ... how is she, Kris? Are you two...? Well, it's alright. Everyone changes. 'cept us.
Queen was naturally on Noelle's "side" during Ch. 2, though King was being an asshole because his card got ripped.
Either way, a whole world frozen over as a result of TV World being built on what would in universe have been a massive battle within the Dark World, and also may give a good display of just how strong Noelle actually is in the Dark World (Snowgrave is just an insta-win kill anybody move she could've probably used at any time) (We know that Kris is also self-nerfing hardcore thanks to him having access to X-Slash in the Snowgrave Spamton fight, which is the one time I think we've ever seen Kris truly pressed in a fight)
Which leads me to want to change my Dark World theory and why Kris' Dark Worlds seem to be so much more uniform and "correct". It's not just Determination, it's that they're all based on the imagination game that he and Noelle used to play as they were children.
Which leads me back to the "Susie shouldn't fucking be here" idea, as she's an outsider who was never involved in their games. So her Dark Worlds are just pale and hollow imitations of what Kris and Noelle once had.
ALSO THERE IS A FUCKING CHRISTMAS TREE THERE
CHRISTMAS TREE.png
 
Kris and Noelle's suicide pact is still a better love story than Suselle.
The only interesting thing about suselle is the fan speculation that Susie reminds Noelle of her dead punk sister. Deltaniggers will still insist it's the best pairing. In reality, suselle is so forced because that's the nature of the prophecy and the nature of characters in a story dictated by code.

Nobody actually has any agency in their own story and while I think that's the actual interpretation you're supposed to take away the fandom won't like their yuri taken away if/when it is.
 
My issue with yellow is that his character is a singular joke and his relationship with what's largely the worst character of the whole chapter.
Isn't that pretty much all the flowers except Flowery and maybe Seth? I had more fun with Yellow's lovable idiot antics than for example Orange. Got me there that him being tied to walking AIDs is a big minus though.
 
On a lighter note, chapter 5 did make undertale yellow slightly funny to me in restrospect.

One of the major plot characters in Yellow is Chujin Ketsukane, one of the writer's donut steel furry oc brillant inventor and scientist (not really) who creates robots because, of course, he's from glorious nippon. One of his creations ends up being responsible for the death of a human, which is explicitly stated to be Blue / Integrity.

Chujin_videotapes.png

You're telling me this japanese man saw a gay nigger ONCE, then immediately dedicated the rest of his life to build and perfect the NEGROIDOBLITERATOR 3000.

The robot's name, by the way, is Axis.

What did they mean by this?
:story:
 
I'm now amassing evidence for Susie's inevitable Heel-Turn by looking through Chapter 2.
Susie
* Now that you mention it...
* Kris, isn't this world just... BETTER?
* We make so many... friends here. Y'know?
Noelle
* I've never... had an adventure like this before.
Susie
* With axes... and battles... and magic.
Noelle
* Where everything can be healed with a little spell.
Susie
* And no matter what happens...
* No one tells us what to do!
Here's what she says at the start of Chapter 2. And like, sure you could see this as endearing, but there's a weird "dragging you down with me" subtext going on here.
Oh, and she ONLY says this is you try to back out of entering the second Dark World by selecting "We can use the computer at my place" rather than "Let's go"
* ...
* Kris, you're right.
* Like, you said a correct fact.
* But you made a mistake.
* The mistake of knowing me.
* 'Cause when I see a big pit,
* All I wanna do is jump in.
* And as long as you're with me...
* I'm dragging you in too!
Another interesting thing I noticed when Noelle is playing Dragon Blazers III in the hospital, confirming Ralsei is gonna leave the party during the "Ice Palace" level (Noelle's house, almost certainly).
* "Silver Drake?" I've never beaten this boss before...
* Alright, hand it over, honey! I got this!
* No, dad! This is my battle!
* ... So, um, how about just telling me what to do?
* Haha, sure! How about trying Fireshock?
* I'd love to, dad, but the mage left the party.
* Oh yeah. How about one of your 99 Blaze Potions?
* Umm, I'm saving those?
* For what? Your birthday? C'mon, live a little!
* OK, dad! This one's for you! Hiyah!
* ...
* It... reflects fire attacks.

There's also this from Alvin talking about Asriel, which is probably just a Yoshi reference, but... the Lizard and pit thing got me thinking, it's probably a joke, but considering what Susie said earlier, I can't truly be certain:
* He would visit me often to confess... to various, "sins".
* Despite the absence of sin, or confession, in our religion.
* I remember his small face, sobbing, as he admitted he had,
* "Dropped the lizard in the pit to jump high."
* Nearly omitting the fact that he had done so in a "videos game."
This prophecy is turning me into a schizophrenic.
I NEED to kill Susie.
 
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I've been thinking. Was there are an actually reason that Orange was a mouse? Or was it just so Toby could make cheese and ratatouille jokes?
I think it was just a silly way of saying that Orange doesn't have the might to back up its courage.
He's the incarnation of the typical heterosexual white men in the game. Of course he gets raked across the coal. It's not even hard to understand him and have sympathy for him, it's just that he's the most easy target.
and yet my man p-pants got out with either the bbw purple gf kris could never get or the bad bitch gator gf AND doesn't go for the gay bromance
How did Kris' dark world bring Gerson back to life within the Dark World? Monster dust was sprinkled on a hammer that was then suffused with darkness created by Kris' Determination.
You mean the Knight? Kris didn't open the church's dark world.
 
Última edición:
Isn't that pretty much all the flowers except Flowery and maybe Seth?
Let me do a comparison with the best character:
Cyan is an energetic gremlin that wants to have fun, she doesn't feel bad because she synergizes well with people around.
Her character is an overused trope, but one that has an easy time bouncing alognside other characters, including the players
All the funny bits with yellow are Susie and Ralsei reacting to him.
NEGROIDOBLITERATOR 3000.
Is it possible to obtain this power?
Thinking about Flowery, its just me or his fight feels somehow incomplete? As if tony cut out a big section of it?
You see him summon your recruits on his side, and when you start using ACTs, you see 3 of your recruits aiding for a second, only for Flowery to counter by sparing them and putting a mercy bar on Susie and Ralsei.
I feel like the fight should have lasted longer to count all recruits, and only then include the remaining 6 flowers and omega flowery.
If so, I kinda hate toby for not giving us the full thing, really that final boss was the best part of the chapter (until you're remembered that tutu-wearing niggerfaggots exists).
 
There's also this from Alvin talking about Asriel, which is probably just a Yoshi reference, but... the Lizard and pit thing got me thinking, it's probably a joke, but considering what Susie said earlier, I can't truly be certain:
It's a clever reference to that part in the Bible where the archangel Mike casts the Dragon out of Heaven.

The dragon then pursues a woman, who in turn grows wings and flees. The dragon then has water pour out of its mouth, flooding everything.

The dragon then goes on to wage war against everything. And then, a beast rises from the lake... a beast whose number is 666...
 
Sorry liberals, but the gamer boy gets the flower
Ver archivo adjunto 9207101
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> You will never see Berdly and Seth in the same room together and how unbelievably cringe it will be (in an endearing, can't-look-away sort of way like a car crash)
> Seth will never overinflate the fuck out of Berdly's ego, to the point that Berdly forces us into another, much harder fight to prove his gamer skills

Why would Tobert do this to us?
Gamers are truly the most oppressed race, Tobias fears the cringe kino he could create
Ver archivo adjunto 9207187
Well, one thing is certain about both the normal and weird route. With either basically turning irrelevant after being on Chapter 2 and/or getting snowgraved, to the only person in love with him being unable to ever meet him, is that being Berdly is suffering. Unrelated video, but related in spirit.
 
It's a clever reference to that part in the Bible where the archangel Mike casts the Dragon out of Heaven.

The dragon then pursues a woman, who in turn grows wings and flees. The dragon then has water pour out of its mouth, flooding everything.

The dragon then goes on to wage war against everything. And then, a beast rises from the lake... a beast whose number is 666...
susie kickstarts the roaring in a bpd tard rage (probably over the castle town fountain needing to be sealed) which summons gigachad gaster to help kris and carol clean up the trashfire
 
Shadow Crystals according to Seam are:
"The power of lost dreams.
When a strong attachment is formed... when a dream is gripped tightly... and then broken off."
Oddly enough, when you use a Shadow Crystal/the glass on the Chapter 5 Weird Route, the only thing you get is:
"* "
One could perhaps say then, that the weird route is the player forcing a lost dream back to being real. Or maybe I'm looking too deeply into things.
Barring Jevil who we still kinda know fuck all about (Who the fuck did he meet?), every single other Shadow Crystal Holder has had at least something to do with Lightner's lost dreams.
"DO YOU WANNA BE A [Heart] ON A [Chain] YOUR WHOLE LIFE!?"

What if Jevil is Kris' "lost dream"--a dream so powerful that if set free will end up killing everyone?
 
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