Undertale / Deltarune / Toby Fox Discussion

[smartgenius55583433157]

This is something I've been thinking about at some point, but I don't think it would be because of Noelle "being only a love interest" (she still plays a role in the story) moreso because Suselle would be a story about a girl falling head over heels for the "bad boy" bully because of his looks or something along those lines while barely interacting with him. And don't forget she had fantasies of Susie pushing her and laughing at her while blushing all over the place when telling it to Kris.

"A masochistic girl being into a bully while barely interacting with him and not seeing much of his character just because he looks hot? PATRIARCHY!"

 

[Dr. Ricearoni]

Okay, so I've just finished Chapter 5... And y'all are doomposting way too fucking much.

I 100% agree with every point you make, in fact, you actually can't fail the hammer minigame with Noelle. She'll always follow Kris's lead perfectly no matter what, which shocks even her.

But we're also gonna look like retards when the doomers are right.

 

[Gay Sex Enjoyer]

Ver archivo adjunto 9195867
This is something I've been thinking about at some point, but I don't think it would be because of Noelle "being only a love interest" (she still plays a role in the story) moreso because Suselle would be a story about a girl falling head over heels for the "bad boy" bully because of his looks or something along those lines while barely interacting with him. And don't forget she had fantasies of Susie pushing her and laughing at her while blushing all over the place when telling it to Kris.

"A masochistic girl being into a bully while barely interacting with him and not seeing much of his character just because he looks hot? PATRIARCHY!"

"If Suselle was straight everyone would admit that it's shallow and/or creepy" has been an established fact for years at this point.

 

[Coolio55]

An interesting note about the tree cake from the pixiv wiki:

https://dic.pixiv.net/a/%E3%83%90%E3%82%A6%E3%83%A0%E3%82%AF%E3%83%BC%E3%83%98%E3%83%B3%E3%82%A8%E3%83%B3%E3%83%89

This refers to the ending in which one of two close friends who seem likely to end up together ends up with a completely different person in the story.

(From the reader's perspective) This refers to a couple who seem like they could end up together, or one half of a pair who is both self-confessed and close, but who ends up with another person in the story. The second letter is also written as "Baamkuchenend" with a longer tone.

There's a reason why Baumkuchen is the case. They get along very well, and people around them 『they're good friends』 say 『are they dating?』 Rumor has it that one of the pair marries the other, and the other is asked to give a speech at the reception, which he does with great wit, including laughing, before returning home and eating the Baumkuchen, a favor to himself...

Please note that this "seemingly likely to end" is merely a decision on the part of the recipient.

Also, apparently this trope has been parodied in JP media in the 2000s

In the Gintama episode, the phenomenon of a series of couplings that have no pulse, let alone any contact, occurring around the time of the final episode was mocked by reading it as the "Final Episode Estrus/Final Fantasy" phenomenon.

• In the final episode, the characters of Gintama, who were afraid of going into heat, were in a state where they couldn't even hold a conversation, saying things like, "Don't talk to me because I'll get a flag," and "I'll slay my dragon/I'll do a dragon quest if it's FF with you guys."
• A similar incident has occurred with Chibi Maruko-chan.

 

[starborn427614]

Definitely possible. But I have a moderate amount of faith. Toby has used my one strike, so I'm not out yet, but...

That's where I'm at now, even with the criticisms still feeling valid. I liked chapter 3 more than most, so 5 is really the only one that didn't land completely for me.

 

[Gay Sex Enjoyer]

If Toby manages to save this mess with Ch6 I will personally donate my paycheck to the IDF on his behalf.


But I doubt it.

 

[Dorothy]

Kris crashing out is expected. Him rejecting the Soul so that it's shoved into the Vessel, even if temporarily, is a possibility. He'll be seen in the wrong, because pointing out that Sus and Noe's relationship is shallow and wrong will piss off the yuri fans. Toby was THIS close of being Rowling'd for accidentally referring to a ghost as a guy instead of a they/them thing, and how he quickly edited the Noelle "rape" scene because it was too undeersirable showed that he'll cave to fan pressure..

That reminds me: I believe that the dash gates segments are inspired by a side-scrolling game where you did just that, cutting down youkai, can't recall the name now though.
The platforming sections are inspired by any combat platforming game, although it's amusing how in these you're pretty much forced to kill and destroy shit, which you do here as well. Kinda odd for the whole fighting is bad stance.

I wonder if the gay cowboy being so terrible as a jab against Clover, UT Yellow's protagonist, as Toby didn't like that game and there was issues with that one's music and Toby which I don't remember right now.

I expect Kris to abandon the soul at some point and go off to die. In the "good route" you follow him and try to rejoin him. He'll talk at this point, revealing he's the one that yanked you from the vessel away from Gaster in the beginning. You continue prodding him until he eventually does take you back, allowing you both to be on the same wave length, which will unlock new attacks.

 

[Schpoots]

This game increasingly feels like a TV show where they're just making shit up as they go while aluding to depth / mystery like LOST. But maybe I just suck and don't get it.

 

[Cun75p4rkl35]

Kris crashing out is expected. Him rejecting the Soul so that it's shoved into the Vessel, even if temporarily, is a possibility. He'll be seen in the wrong, because pointing out that Sus and Noe's relationship is shallow and wrong will piss off the yuri fans. Toby was THIS close of being Rowling'd for accidentally referring to a ghost as a guy instead of a they/them thing, and how he quickly edited the Noelle "rape" scene because it was too undeersirable showed that he'll cave to fan pressure..

That reminds me: I believe that the dash gates segments are inspired by a side-scrolling game where you did just that, cutting down youkai, can't recall the name now though.
The platforming sections are inspired by any combat platforming game, although it's amusing how in these you're pretty much forced to kill and destroy shit, which you do here as well. Kinda odd for the whole fighting is bad stance.

I wonder if the gay cowboy being so terrible as a jab against Clover, UT Yellow's protagonist, as Toby didn't like that game and there was issues with that one's music and Toby which I don't remember right now.

I don't respect toby purely for that. If this was really his dream he'd tell his fans, "this is my fucking game I've wanted to make for ten years, take it or kick rocks" but he's too much of a woke pussy to do so.

 

[smartgenius55583433157]

"If Suselle was straight everyone would admit that it's shallow and/or creepy" has been an established fact for years at this point.

But still the most obnoxious fans will gloss over it. I've seen some argue against this tweet, while not engaging with the main assessment that if you swapped genders Suselle wouldn't be praised at all. Still, it's quite surprising how what usually would've been considered creepy in a hetero situation would've been comeplty fine in a lesbian one.

It's really annoying

 

[TyrasGuard]

If Toby manages to save this mess with Ch6 I will personally donate my paycheck to the IDF on his behalf.


But I doubt it.

I trust the dog, at least when it comes to the route he had the dream about (Which I hope it is the WR). The only thing that I'm worried about is that it becomes an Undertale where you have to beat the game once before it starts giving you the answers.

 

[FuluFuckwit]

This is a friendly reminder that Undertale and Deltarune are hot fucking garbage and that the only good whimsical western indie RPG is OFF.

 

[Gay Sex Enjoyer]

But still the most obnoxious fans will gloss over it. I've seen some argue against this tweet, while not engaging with the main assessment that if you swapped genders Suselle wouldn't be praised at all. Still, it's quite surprising how what usually would've been considered creepy in a hetero situation would've been comeplty fine in a lesbian one.

It's really annoying

If Susie was a dude then Noelle's entire personality and 90% of her dialogue would revolve around a boy she likes, which is the kind of thing people bitch about the hardest when it comes to female characters in fiction; I.E. where they only exist for the sake of a dude and constantly orbit around them, essentially becoming a prop.

If Noelle was a dude then her obsessive feelings towards Susie would be immediately seen as creepy and unhealthy (not to mention pathetic), and Dudelle actually getting with Susie would come off as schlocky romance anime-level plot contrivance. She'd be Berdly on steroids.

There is no version of reality where Suselle is nigh-universally defended as wholesome and good that doesn't involve people fetishizing lesbians.

 

[Cun75p4rkl35]

But still the most obnoxious fans will gloss over it. I've seen some argue against this tweet, while not engaging with the main assessment that if you swapped genders Suselle wouldn't be praised at all. Still, it's quite surprising how what usually would've been considered creepy in a hetero situation would've been comeplty fine in a lesbian one.

It's really annoying

It's because humans subconsciously have a bias that women are harmless so when something terrible happens it's "lol women" even though lesbian couples have horrific domestic abuse levels (this is before troons decided they could be added to lesbo statistics)

 

[Gay Sex Enjoyer]

Noelle would 100% be the abusive one btw

 

[Throng of Titans]

Susie winding up with Noelle is incredibly unsurprising given Toby's history and I think a lot of people called it the second she and Susie interacted once.

The insane humiliation ritual Kris is getting put through was not something I anticipated though. I knew Toby was a yurifag, but not an NTRfag.

Edit: There is of course always the possibility that Toby's playing into expected stereotypes and is going to pull off some masterclass twist in chapters 6/7, but my expectations are very low, especially with Tralsei still being on the table.

 

[Cryogonal2]

I don't disagree lmao. I think Toby has received enough leeway from me that I'm willing to take one bad to middling chapter at face value instead of dooming about it, but this could definitely all.come crashing down.

Me too, but it sucks that it ended on this and that's where it's going to stay until probably a year from now

The strength testing hammer is the most explicit, but you'll very quickly notice that Susie and Noelle... actually don't have that much chemistry together.

In the Weird Route, they ring the bell so hard that it goes flying off. That's interesting

 

[biguglyboy]

Ver archivo adjunto 9195867
This is something I've been thinking about at some point, but I don't think it would be because of Noelle "being only a love interest" (she still plays a role in the story) moreso because Suselle would be a story about a girl falling head over heels for the "bad boy" bully because of his looks or something along those lines while barely interacting with him. And don't forget she had fantasies of Susie pushing her and laughing at her while blushing all over the place when telling it to Kris.

"A masochistic girl being into a bully while barely interacting with him and not seeing much of his character just because he looks hot? PATRIARCHY!"

I thought the same thing but with a further step. Noelle likes Susie because she's similar to Dess. I thought the point was going to be that it's supposed to be unhealthy because she's latching on to Susie as a surrogate sister since she has that same punk girl style they alude to with Dess. And even if that's not intentionally the point since this chapter pushed the relationship into the romantic, it's still kinda true and unhealthy isn't it? Am I crazy for thinking the stuff in chapter 3 like Noelle letting Susie playing Dess' guitar that's verboten for anyone else to touch suggest that?

 

[TheCrackMonkey]

Noelle's entire personality and 90% of her dialogue would revolve around a boy she likes,

It's stuff like this and how forced the Suselle moments are that makes me sit in the camp of "Suselle is really the result of Gaster/whoever fucking with their minds to fulfill the prophecy." And Noelle's whole monologue in ch5's weird route helped further cement my position.

And it'd be a great moment for Susie when she realizes with horror that she was unwittingly playing into the very thing she swore to prevent, but I guess we'll have to wait and see if Toby's actually smart enough to go with that.

 

[Smack Patrick]

I thought the same thing but with a further step. Noelle likes Susie because she's similar to Dess. I thought the point was going to be that it's supposed to be unhealthy because she's latching on to Susie as a surrogate sister since she has that same punk girl style they alude to with Dess. And even if that's not intentionally the point since this chapter pushed the relationship into the romantic, it's still kinda true and unhealthy isn't it? Am I crazy for thinking the stuff in chapter 3 like Noelle letting Susie playing Dess' guitar that's verboten for anyone else to touch suggest that?

>Noelle lusting after Susie because she reminds her of Dess
>Ralsei lusting after Kris despite looking like his brother
So we adding incest to Toby's fetish list now or...?