Undertale / Deltarune / Toby Fox Discussion

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I do find it kind of funny that I'm more offput by chapter 5 3 days after it came out than Susie was offput during the start of chapter 5 despite seeing a fucking corpse, learning the end of the prophesy and fighting a 700 foot tall shadow demon yesterday.

She's all smiles and gumdrops and ready for her wholsome yuri day with nary a hint of concern for the life-changing shit that happened like 6 hours earlier.
 
Interesting thing.

Its implied Flowery based some of his traits on Asgore's real college roommate, Rudy.

The Knight and Flowery share a lot of poses.

If you squint, Flowery's face kind of resemble Rudy's. 1782565379603433.jpg
 
The nu-Mew Mew apes Sailor Moon. Whoever said that troons only know Sailor Moon from magical girl animes, he was totally on point. Good thing, as I don't think anyone would want to see an Elfen Lied and/or a Madoka rip off from Toby (not that he would ever do something that edgy, not anymore at least).

Chapter 1 was darker than the others because the King was a straight up, no-nonsense villain, with capital V, with no redeeming features, that you must defeat no matter what it takes. Then he's dunked on from Chapter 2 and his character completely ridiculed.

By the way: If Flowery is meant to be an idealized Rudy, why does he have hints of Flowey too, then? Seeing his dislike of Rals, maybe he has a bit of self-loathing too, which means the grooming bit was done with ill intent... Not that this would be ever done, at least not intentionally, Toby risks a neck-shot if he ever attempted to paint a snowflake alphabet soup character as a villain.

And what kind of "idealistic person" was Tenma meant to be, by the way?
 
Newcomer 42 dijo:
The nu-Mew Mew apes Sailor Moon. Whoever said that troons only know Sailor Moon from magical girl animes, he was totally on point. Good thing, as I don't think anyone would want to see an Elfen Lied and/or a Madoka rip off from Toby (not that he would ever do something that edgy, not anymore at least).

Chapter 1 was darker than the others because the King was a straight up, no-nonsense villain, with capital V, with no redeeming features, that you must defeat no matter what it takes. Then he's dunked on from Chapter 2 and his character completely ridiculed.

By the way: If Flowery is meant to be an idealized Rudy, why does he have hints of Flowey too, then? Seeing his dislike of Rals, maybe he has a bit of self-loathing too, which means the grooming bit was done with ill intent... Not that this would be ever done, at least not intentionally, Toby risks a neck-shot if he ever attempted to paint a snowflake alphabet soup character as a villain.

And what kind of "idealistic person" was Tenma meant to be, by the way?
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I mean not all Darkners are reflections of real people, it just depends on the person running the fountain and their feelings towards the object.

The Flowers, to Asgore, represent the idealized past that he wants back, so some of them physically embody that. Rudy and Asgore were best friends back when he married Toriel, he was his best man. Now Rudy is dying of Aids and Asgore barely sees him anymore, especially after Dess got shadow-acked.

Flowery is basically a composite of the golden flower as it's own thing, Asgore's memories of Rudy, and Asgore himself (at least in his overbearing-ness).

Tenna isn't supposed to be someone specific, I don't think. He's just the family TV that wants things to go back to the way they used to be, back when everyone was happy and he had a purpose.
 
Gay Sex Enjoyer dijo:
I felt like Flowery being a reflection of young Rudy was kind of obvious, actually.

It was established that they were best friends in collage and the bromance jokes have been around for a while.
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Didn't Asgore say to Flowery that he was pretending to only like him while not actually being into what Flowery had to offer Asgore?
IMG_20260627_221621.png
I wonder what's that supposed to mean
 
Gay Sex Enjoyer dijo:
I do find it kind of funny that I'm more offput by chapter 5 3 days after it came out than Susie was offput during the start of chapter 5 despite seeing a fucking corpse, learning the end of the prophesy and fighting a 700 foot tall shadow demon yesterday.

She's all smiles and gumdrops and ready for her wholsome yuri day with nary a hint of concern for the life-changing shit that happened like 6 hours earlier.
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It's actually something I've been thinking about ever since Chapter 4. I feel like Toby Fox shot himself in the foot by making this entire story take place over the course of a single weekend. I think that if he had left the timeline more vague, or better yet, not mentioned specific dates at all, a lot of the inconsistencies and lack of cohesion in Chapter 5 would've made much more sense. If the plot said that a few weeks had passed,hell, even just a month at most, a lot of the characters' behavior would've felt far more believable.

If a few weeks had gone by, it would make sense why Ralsei and Susie barely react to the terrible events at the end of Chapter 4. You could argue that they'd slowly started to come to terms with what happened, even if the tension was still there. And while it still wouldn't have been perfect, the whole Susie and Noelle sequence would've made a lot more sense if, say, Susie wanted to stay closer to Noelle because she now knows how badly things can end, or something along those lines.

That was the first sign to me that this chapter wasn't going to be good: the complete lack of reaction from Ralsei and Susie to what happened with the prophecy and the Titan.

Hell, I don't think the Titans were even mentioned once in Chapter 5.
 
flowery being a plant and plants being unique from darkners and his general persona being a more anime version of Rudy that's massively OP but doesn't like fighting much seems like a poorly fleshed-out trigun reference

he had the perfect setup and fumbled it
 
Nicholas II of Russia dijo:
It's actually something I've been thinking about ever since Chapter 4. I feel like Toby Fox shot himself in the foot by making this entire story take place over the course of a single weekend. I think that if he had left the timeline more vague, or better yet, not mentioned specific dates at all, a lot of the inconsistencies and lack of cohesion in Chapter 5 would've made much more sense. If the plot said that a few weeks had passed,hell, even just a month at most, a lot of the characters' behavior would've felt far more believable.

If a few weeks had gone by, it would make sense why Ralsei and Susie barely react to the terrible events at the end of Chapter 4. You could argue that they'd slowly started to come to terms with what happened, even if the tension was still there. And while it still wouldn't have been perfect, the whole Susie and Noelle sequence would've made a lot more sense if, say, Susie wanted to stay closer to Noelle because she now knows how badly things can end, or something along those lines.

That was the first sign to me that this chapter wasn't going to be good: the complete lack of reaction from Ralsei and Susie to what happened with the prophecy and the Titan.

Hell, I don't think the Titans were even mentioned once in Chapter 5.
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If we're giving tricky tony the benefit of the doubt and going with the timeline alteration theory, it might be that the Knight was never SUPPOSED to create a Titan in Chapter 4, which is why Susie and Ralsei who are prophecymaxxing just ignore it.
Of course, all this requires Toby to actually be a good writer who's doing everything on purpose. Making the story take place over the span of less than a week to make you pick up on how fucking weird some stuff is turning out to be. Susie basically just going "Oh whatever lol" to her "PTSD" in the last chapter immediately. Nobody mentioning Titans in the entire chapter? There's this weird dissonance, to me.
 
It just feels bizzare to me because half the people talking before 5 assumed that the festival would be kind of a mess with how complicated it was being set up as.

1) Kris would be there so that would throw off the "first date" thing because Kris and Susie are way closer than Noelle and Susie are by this point in the story and a third wheel doesn't help
2) Susie wouldn't be able to enjoy it as just a fun day out because of all the traumatic shit she had to deal with, alone, the night before

But then the festival happens and not only is it complete meaningless fluff that doesn't impact the story whatsoever, the two things I mentioned above don't factor in at all. Kris may as well not even be there with how well it goes for Susie and Noelle and Susie is completely fine emotionally. She's completely in-the-moment and happy as if all the stuff that happened yesterday straight up didn't.

Then for the rest of the chapter the only thing Susie cares or talks about at all is how badly she wants to fuck Noelle now. It comes off as juvenile anime romance writing.
 
Symbol of the Chud dijo:
Here's some more fuel to the "Susie is a manipulative cunt" fire.
In Deltarune, the line "What does it feel like to be made of blood" is said to a human (Kris), strongly implying that Deltarune monsters are made of dust still.
When Susie punches the prophecy pane and it shatters though, it bleeds. We know from Undertale that "Suzy" was connected to Gaster from the Goners.
So what if the Gaster Followers are all somehow able to bleed?
Because in Undertale, Sans also bleeds at the end of the fight (I don't buy the 'haha it was ketchup' shit, he was bleeding from his mouth and then walked off screen before he died. (Sans is Gaster's strongest soldier the motherfucker even has GASTER BLASTERS and knows the world is fake bullshit)
And the one thing Sans excels at most in Undertale is twisting the established rules of a game to work entirely in his favour without outright breaking them.
And if you take the fact that the prophecy is meant to exist as 'established rules' that Susie is twisting to work in her favour?
Well it looks bad on Evil Barney the Dinosaur.
Even her battle theme feels wrong, the more you think about it. "Vs. Susie"
Imagine it all loops back to kino and the final boss theme is just "Vs. Dragon".
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then there are toby's words 'When the devil appears, he will take form of a savior' or something like that, and satan/devil is sometimes depicted as a dragon. susie is one of those skeletons masked with meat, a devil just like gaster with his association with number 666.
 
Gay Sex Enjoyer dijo:
It just feels bizzare to me because half the people talking before 5 assumed that the festival would be kind of a mess with how complicated it was being set up as.

1) Kris would be there so that would throw off the "first date" thing because Kris and Susie are way closer than Noelle and Susie are by this point in the story and a third wheel doesn't help
2) Susie wouldn't be able to enjoy it as just a fun day out because of all the traumatic shit she had to deal with, alone, the night before

But then the festival happens and not only is it complete meaningless fluff that doesn't impact the story whatsoever, the two things I mentioned above don't factor in at all. Kris may as well not even be there with how well it goes for Susie and Noelle and Susie is completely fine emotionally. She's completely in-the-moment and happy as if all the stuff that happened yesterday straight up didn't.

Then for the rest of the chapter the only thing Susie cares or talks about at all is how badly she wants to fuck Noelle now. It comes off as juvenile anime romance writing.
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The only interesting part about the festival is how much you can fuck with the expected events by focusing on Noelle.
A festival date that shows how much more compatible you are with somebody else, yet Noelle is still forced to love Susie, even though their scenes show them to be basically the opposite of compatible. (Susie fucks up on the Hammer test (Always perfect with Kris), the Ferris Wheel, the Festival King and Queen thing that just never gets brought up again, hell, Susie basically fucking bullies one of Noelle's friends in front of her for being concerned about Noelle's self-destructive behavior.)
No fucking wonder she goes insane so fast in the Weird Route when she gets a taste of that [sweet, sweet] [freedom sauce] and is no longer being forced to love somebody for no reason whatsoever, and everyone else in town can't see the odd stuff happening, either.

The only other characters who noticed that Kris had changed other than Noelle is Weird Route Berdly, and Normal Route Flowery.
 
Gay Sex Enjoyer dijo:
It just feels bizzare to me because half the people talking before 5 assumed that the festival would be kind of a mess with how complicated it was being set up as.

1) Kris would be there so that would throw off the "first date" thing because Kris and Susie are way closer than Noelle and Susie are by this point in the story and a third wheel doesn't help
2) Susie wouldn't be able to enjoy it as just a fun day out because of all the traumatic shit she had to deal with, alone, the night before

But then the festival happens and not only is it complete meaningless fluff that doesn't impact the story whatsoever, the two things I mentioned above don't factor in at all. Kris may as well not even be there with how well it goes for Susie and Noelle and Susie is completely fine emotionally. She's completely in-the-moment and happy as if all the stuff that happened yesterday straight up didn't.

Then for the rest of the chapter the only thing Susie cares or talks about at all is how badly she wants to fuck Noelle now. It comes off as juvenile anime romance writing.
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Sorry, chud, there is barely any time left to write Suselle into the story! That's why we can't waste any time with Susie dealing with emotions of what happened yesterday and have gay lesbian romance NOW NOW NOW!
 
Gay Sex Enjoyer dijo:
I do find it kind of funny that I'm more offput by chapter 5 3 days after it came out than Susie was offput during the start of chapter 5 despite seeing a fucking corpse, learning the end of the prophesy and fighting a 700 foot tall shadow demon yesterday.

She's all smiles and gumdrops and ready for her wholsome yuri day with nary a hint of concern for the life-changing shit that happened like 6 hours earlier.
Presiona para expandir...
It honestly sounds like a Sonichu comic when you put it like that. They even collect crystals.

Sonichu being Kris and Gaster just self inserting his own OC until the story is just about the OC.
 
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