Radical politics

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That's one of its bad and good points. Think of how the interstate highway system would be if every state "innovated" and had different widths, were made of entirely different materials, could decide to have driving on the left or right side, different regulations for what cars were allowed on it, so that when you crossed state lines, your perfectly legal car was now suddenly illegal on the other side, etc.

It would be chaos.

But apply socialism to building cars. You end up with a piece of shit like the Trabant. Cars produced in Soviet countries were absolutely lousy.

So a "socialist" system is good for building infrastructure and public goods where you really don't want innovation. You want standardization.

And capitalism is what you use to build what you actually drive on that highway.

The difference is you can't shop around for public goods. Your country either has sufficient military defenses to stop foreign invasions or it doesn't. You can't exclude anyone from the benefit of that whether or not they're paying for it.

Cars, by contrast, are a private good. You buy a car, you own it. People will only buy cars that do what they want. Companies that build cars that nobody wants will go out of business.

People arguing about whether capitalism or socialism are "better" remind me of two guys, one with a hammer and one with a screwdriver, arguing that either a hammer or a screwdriver is the only good tool and the other tool is horrible.
Yeah innovation goes both ways, from the perspective of success on the market completely ignoring the road safety of your car in favor of making it cheap to produce could be a very innovative positive thing to do. This is why a measure of government interference in the form of regulation is needed even in the case of private goods in my opinion.
Market incentives can go in all directions and are seldom predictable and when they start incentivizing unreasonably harmful(towards the public or a subset of it) practices by businesses regulation is needed. To be clear I only advocate this kind of regulation in fairly extreme cases where it's clear that business practices harm the public because of the way the market incentivizes them to behave.
 
I find radical politics interesting from an intellectual point of view, but I know from history they aren't usually practical. And most serious people do, which is why they instinctively gravitate toward moderation.

The bitter pill we have to swallow is that progress of the collective human condition will come from a long march of reform and technological improvement. There are no shortcuts to utopia through radicalism.
 
Yeah innovation goes both ways, from the perspective of success on the market completely ignoring the road safety of your car in favor of making it cheap to produce could be a very innovative positive thing to do. This is why a measure of government interference in the form of regulation is needed even in the case of private goods in my opinion.

Very few things are purely public or purely private. On the one extreme, you have things like military defense of a country's borders. On the other, you have things like individuals trading services like a local kid mowing a lawn for $20, where it would be extremely inefficient for the government to do much regulation. So yes, there's regulation even in private goods like cars or cell phones, where public things like roads or the airwaves are involved.

One central principle of economic libertarianism is one of informational efficiency, that is, that individuals and entities close to a particular phenomenon in which they have an economic interest are going to be incentivized to know about it in detail and make rational decisions based on a profit motive. Government interference with that inevitably introduces inefficiency, and therefore should be avoided or at least only undertaken when that inefficiency is outweighed by some general good.

This works well even for necessary items, as things like cell phones have become, where there actually is a fairly strong freedom on the part of consumers to get whatever they want and avoid things they don't. It isn't so good in things like cable television, where oligopoly and collusion between market participants basically means consumers get screwed.

Anyway, the libertarian philosophy isn't, at its core, a terrible one. What's terrible is when it's taken to extremes and applied unevenly by people who are only interested in advantage for themselves and disregard coercion (the bugaboo of libertarians) when it's against people they don't like. That's a huge problem with the philosophy at its core and why it's currently basically relegated to a splinter group of Republicans instead of getting the attention the ideas themselves (or at least some of them) actually deserve.

So what often gets called the libertarian wing of the Republican party loves to try to sound like Ron Paul on economic issues and taxes, but then completely ignores it when it comes to things like starting dumb wars like Iraq, even though going to war is basically enacting a huge tax on the country. Even if you don't raise taxes then, the resources to wage war don't just come out of nowhere, and you're eventually going to have to raise taxes or, even worse, devalue the currency by creating more of it.

The problem is the stupid left-right dichotomy keeps libertarians like this from separating out issues where they agree with the majority and then actually pushing those issues. For instance, on the Iraq deal, you'd get a lot of left and far-left agreement with opposing a number of specific policy issues that are shared with libertarians, but political groups are very bad at teasing out individual points of agreement and pushing on them (while continuing to fight about the other issues).

To get back to the point, that's because a lot of these issues are shared by various groups that are effectively extremists, or at least out of the mainstream, and treat each other as the enemy rather than as people who might actually have something in common.
 
To call a position "radical" is simply to say that it is sufficiently distant from the existing political consensus. It follows from this that saying "radical politics are always wrong" is to say that the political consensus has some kind of practical, if not theoretical, logic behind it simply because it is the consensus. I find this to be a very depressing idea.

There have been plenty of times in history where ideas that were decried as radically unrealistic were nonetheless tried and were absolutely and totally vindicated, where gradual reform would have worked less well, if not at all. I'm deliberately not providing examples because I don't want to get bogged down in discussing the particulars of any given occasion. If you can't think of a single example where this is true, we're probably not going to agree on the big picture either.

Having said all that, just because a policy is "radical" doesn't make it a good policy. Obviously killing all blue-eyed babies would be radical and also terrible. But there are plenty of policies that are the opposite of radical, in that they enjoy widespread support and approval, which are nonetheless terrible policies. In those kinds of situations, radicalism of some sort is the only answer.
 
To call a position "radical" is simply to say that it is sufficiently distant from the existing political consensus. It follows from this that saying "radical politics are always wrong" is to say that the political consensus has some kind of practical, if not theoretical, logic behind it simply because it is the consensus. I find this to be a very depressing idea.

There have been plenty of times in history where ideas that were decried as radically unrealistic were nonetheless tried and were absolutely and totally vindicated, where gradual reform would have worked less well, if not at all. I'm deliberately not providing examples because I don't want to get bogged down in discussing the particulars of any given occasion. If you can't think of a single example where this is true, we're probably not going to agree on the big picture either.

Having said all that, just because a policy is "radical" doesn't make it a good policy. Obviously killing all blue-eyed babies would be radical and also terrible. But there are plenty of policies that are the opposite of radical, in that they enjoy widespread support and approval, which are nonetheless terrible policies. In those kinds of situations, radicalism of some sort is the only answer.
It's not that political consensus is practical because it is the consensus, but rather, the political consensus is the consensus because it is practical. And yes everyone understands that there are exceptions that prove the rule.
 
Obviously, but it doesn't necessarily follow that by definition if people want something, it works.
Usually it does. People have brains and are able to make choices between functional and non-functional. That's how markets work, including markets of ideas.
 
Usually it does. People have brains and are able to make choices between functional and non-functional. That's how markets work, including markets of ideas.

Probably most of the time. Especially if we're going to consider ideas that are not inside the normal sphere of political debate (e.g, "should murder be legal"?) But I feel that the times that radicalism is demanded are sufficiently common that turning "radical" into a criticism, in and of itself, is dangerous. If radical ideas really are so impractical that they're universally rejected, it should be easy enough to reject them on the grounds of explicit defined impracticality, not implicit impracticality due to unpopularity.

I see what you're getting at re: elitism, but public consensus is too variable, both over time and over different contexts, to be considered correct on any given issue. If somebody said the consensus was always wrong, that would be ridiculous, but that's not a position anybody holds, not even those on the absolute fringes of the political discourse (e.g. white nationalists, deep environmentalists, anarchists, etc etc).

Anyway, I doubt we're gonna come to agreement on this, so I'm sorry if this sounds patronising, but I think I'm gonna leave my case for radicalism as it stands and bow out. (I've been trying to cut back on the whole arguing-about-politics-online thing... as many as you may have seen, it's not going too well)
 
Anyway, I doubt we're gonna come to agreement on this, so I'm sorry if this sounds patronising, but I think I'm gonna leave my case for radicalism as it stands and bow out. (I've been trying to cut back on the whole arguing-about-politics-online thing... as many as you may have seen, it's not going too well)
I'll let you keep the last word in regards to our particular discussion, Dudeofteenage.
 
It's not that political consensus is practical because it is the consensus, but rather, the political consensus is the consensus because it is practical. And yes everyone understands that there are exceptions that prove the rule.

I would say that the political consensus doesn't favour the practical solution so much as the one that keeps the status quo (which is the practical situation in quite a few instances)

For most of human history, slavery was considered acceptable by almost every major civilization. And slavery is very practical.
 
I would say that the political consensus doesn't favour the practical solution so much as the one that keeps the status quo (which is the practical situation in quite a few instances)

For most of human history, slavery was considered acceptable by almost every major civilization. And slavery is very practical.
Well, yes, as you state, however we view slavery today in moral terms, for much of human history preserving slavery was the practical political choice.
 
I'm very curious as to how society will adapt when we no longer need manpower to do most tasks. Pretty soon robots will be able to replace almost all physical work done by humans so a new type of society will have to be developed along with a new type of economy.

Also with the advent of such an increase in ability to partake directly in government via social media type programs will we move more into a direct democracy style of government where each citizen has a direct say in policy or can we foist off the day to day affairs onto so sort of super AI.

To me the biggest question will be "what will we do with our time?" If AI and robots are taking care of all the details, what will we do? Descend into a life of pleasure seeking? Pursue intellectual limits of thought? Or do we take the easy route and let our species drift into extinction while our AI children move forward into the future.

Fuck...I wish I could freeze myself for 500 years just so I could know.

I hate not knowing...
 
To me the biggest question will be "what will we do with our time?" If AI and robots are taking care of all the details, what will we do? Descend into a life of pleasure seeking? Pursue intellectual limits of thought? Or do we take the easy route and let our species drift into extinction while our AI children move forward into the future.

It doesn't seem there would be any particular need for humans to exist at all at that point, at least this model. We'll adapt and evolve or cease to exist.

The question is also whether it turns out more practical to invent superintelligent AIs or simply improve our own intelligence. Despite a lot of messianic bullshit from transhumanist types at LessWrong and similar places (LW is almost a lolcow factory in itself), I don't see superintelligent AIs any time soon. The assumption is that a bunch of bottlenecks are simply going to disappear or be magically solved, presumably by superintelligent AIs themselves, presenting a sort of bootstrapping problem.

So I'm not terribly worried humanity is going to be obsolete by next Thursday.
 
I'm very curious as to how society will adapt when we no longer need manpower to do most tasks. Pretty soon robots will be able to replace almost all physical work done by humans so a new type of society will have to be developed along with a new type of economy.

The real threshhold will come, not when robots are capable of performing all tasks humans perform, but when it's cheaper to get a robot to do it than a human.

This could be either really good, or really bad. It depends who's controlling the robots, and their approach to sharing wealth.

To me the biggest question will be "what will we do with our time?" If AI and robots are taking care of all the details, what will we do? Descend into a life of pleasure seeking?

You should read Iain Banks' Culture novels, they basically address this exact question.
 
The real threshhold will come, not when robots are capable of performing all tasks humans perform, but when it's cheaper to get a robot to do it than a human.

This could be either really good, or really bad. It depends who's controlling the robots, and their approach to sharing wealth.

Yeah, things are going to get interesting when the majority of the human race becomes unemployable (though the Luddites said the same thing about the factory and look where that got them)
 
The real threshhold will come, not when robots are capable of performing all tasks humans perform, but when it's cheaper to get a robot to do it than a human.

This could be either really good, or really bad. It depends who's controlling the robots, and their approach to sharing wealth.



You should read Iain Banks' Culture novels, they basically address this exact question.

It shows a misunderstanding of economics. The cheaper a robot is, the cheaper the labour is, and even if a robot can get a job done cheaper, people will use it where the same robot will be more profitable. Finally, building a robot requires capital, and capital is not unlimited. A company with no cash reserve has no alternative but to hire people.
 
Finally, building a robot requires capital, and capital is not unlimited. A company with no cash reserve has no alternative but to hire people.

But machines are capital.

People require wages (and have costs built in, too). If you have no cash reserve and hire people, you're banking on making enough reserves to pay your employees, cover your other costs, and presumably still make some revenue to spare.

Overhead and maintenance on robots would also (presumably) be cheaper than wages for labour in this scenario. r>g, after all.

Also, robots can't unionise. Or rather, by the time robots start unionising, there are larger problems at hand.
 
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