Police shootings in Murrkuh and BLM protests: The thread. - It was a good thread, it dindu nuffin

Since it seems like this shit has been happening at least several times a week now for the past month, and separate threads have pretty much dominated this board for the majority of it, I feel it's time for a centralized thread on this sort of thing (apologies if someone already did this. If so, feel free to merge this thread with that one).

Up next on the plate, Chiraq has the potential to be dealing with more riots and unrest as footage from the police shooting of Paul O'Neal was released earlier today. Obviously, BLM has been all over this like flies on a dead carcass since the policeman apparently violated police protocol during the arrest. The only problems were that Paul O'Neal was being investigated for allegedly stealing a car (he was an 18-year-old in a Jaguar. Unless his parents were loaded, he doesn't have the equity or cash to buy one of those), he immediately sped away from police, crashed the car, and then fled the scene on foot before police shot at him.

Do I believe that police needed to shoot at him? Probably not. Did they have probable cause to suspect that he was committing a crime? Unfortunately, yes. This, to me, is just another case of BLM siding with a thug committing a crime instead of the hundreds people in Chiraq who are adversely affected by gang violence in the city.

On the other side of the pond, BLM protests in the UK blocked roadways and shut down airports and tram systems in Heathrow, Birmingham and Nottingham in protest of the five-year anniversary of the death of Mark Duggan, a man who was lawfully killed by police for planning a violent retalitory crime, was carrying a weapon and was an alleged drug dealer. What a saint, amirite?

This is the kind of shit I cannot stand, regardless of motive or cause. How many lives are you potentially risking with this kind of shit. What about emergency personnel? Good luck getting these people to move, especially if you're a firefighter or paramedic.

So yes, this isn't going to be over any time soon. Current year, indeed.

 

[Chan the Wizard]

Yeah. That looks like murder/manslaughter to me. He looked like he was just shuffling back, didn't reach for anything. I generally err on the side of the police, if you're carrying a BB gun that looks realistic, too bad, but I'm not sure why they shot him.

 

[Ineedahero]

(Either some serious power levelling from a criminologist or anecdotes not backed up by the data.

I may not have had the benefit of interviewing local cops, but I have had the luxury of reading the reports from the National Institute of Justice (pdf) and the National Academy of Sciences who claim it has had an effect and John Hopkins University (pdf) who found a strong link between the decrease in proactive policing in Baltimore and the death of Freddie Gray. These are not cherry picked, in fact the chair of the round table at the National Academy of Sciences is Rich Rosenfeld, whose research was originally quoted all over to debunk the Ferguson effect.

In other words, this is not idle speculation, or my gut reaction based on fear. The evidence strongly suggests - ironically especially in Baltimore - that the police have been negatively impacted by BLM.

 

[RomanesEuntDomus]

Yeah. That looks like murder/manslaughter to me. He looked like he was just shuffling back, didn't reach for anything. I generally err on the side of the police, if you're carrying a BB gun that looks realistic, too bad, but I'm not sure why they shot him.

Especially since at that range and in that situation, a taser would have been a viable option, too.
The problem isn't just trigger happy cops, they also always go for lethal weapons as their first means to confront suspects, it seems.
I am by no means promoting cops taking risks to their own health or risking the wellbeing of bystanders by not using the necessary means to stop suspects, but this situation right now? Using lethal force just seems completely unwarranted (assuming the guy was, indeed, unarmed).

 

[Android raptor]

Yikes about the cities having more violent crime after riots due to less policing. I feel bad for innocent people living there.

 

[AnOminous]

Yikes about the cities having more violent crime after riots due to less policing. I feel bad for innocent people living there.

The irony is that a group named "Black Lives Matter" is literally killing black people.

 

[Male Idiot]

Yeah. That looks like murder/manslaughter to me. He looked like he was just shuffling back, didn't reach for anything. I generally err on the side of the police, if you're carrying a BB gun that looks realistic, too bad, but I'm not sure why they shot him.

In his place I would have either put my hands up in the air or slowly lowered myself to the tarmac, but still, he did not appear to be threatening.* I can not fully see his hands so I can not judge the situation fully, but seems like it was a cop over-reaction.

Only justification I could think of is the cops yelling for him to put up his hands and him having a gun at the front of his pants, but the audio is shit and we can't see his front. So from what I can see it was not a justified shooting.

*Even if the cops are not coming for you, hitting the floor is usually the good way to avoid any criss-crossing bullets in a shootout.

 

[Grog]

Good going, niggers! In your fight against racism you have made racial tensions in America worse than they've ever been in the last few decades.

 

[Marvin]

I may not have had the benefit of interviewing local cops, but I have had the luxury of reading the reports from the National Institute of Justice (pdf) and the National Academy of Sciences who claim it has had an effect and John Hopkins University (pdf) who found a strong link between the decrease in proactive policing in Baltimore and the death of Freddie Gray. These are not cherry picked, in fact the chair of the round table at the National Academy of Sciences is Rich Rosenfeld, whose research was originally quoted all over to debunk the Ferguson effect.

In other words, this is not idle speculation, or my gut reaction based on fear. The evidence strongly suggests - ironically especially in Baltimore - that the police have been negatively impacted by BLM.

No, the JHU study you link merely shows that the police have been making less arrests. They offer various theories for this, one of which is the police pulling back. And as they elaborate on the implications of that, one suggestion of theirs is that the police are (correctly) being more discretionary. That is, they're doing their jobs properly.

Additionally, they didn't find evidence that showed that police activity, either increased or decreased, kicked off any crime waves. These points can be found both in the opening introduction and in the Joint Conclusions section.

As far as the other study is concerned, it's focused largely on homicide. To me, homicide data studies are mostly navel gazing. Homicide is a particularly rare crime, and a single, unrelated data point can really warp the data. It's good for sounding dramatic and scaring the kids from the suburbs, but I'm not particularly interested in it. I'm much more interested in data involving gang activity, because that's a much more measurable proxy for homicide.

 

[Shokew]

http://www.cnn.com/2016/09/25/us/charlotte-police-video/index.html

I don't know if this adds anything to the conversation. However, I'm convinced it will add fuel to the fire for this kind of shit to continue in states willing to do it to "protect blue lives", like North Carolina.

Not surprised - North Carolina's become a real (and even bigger) shit-hole (than that of Michigan or Wisconsin have over the years, anyway...) as of late, and not just because of shit like BLM inciting riots over dead kids being stupid with guns...

 

[RomanesEuntDomus]

http://www.cnn.com/2016/09/25/us/charlotte-police-video/index.html

I don't know if this adds anything to the conversation. However, I'm convinced it will add fuel to the fire for this kind of shit to continue in states willing to do it to "protect blue lives", like North Carolina.

Not surprised - North Carolina's become a real (and even bigger) shit-hole (than that of Michigan or Wisconsin have over the years, anyway...) as of late, and not just because of shit like BLM inciting riots over dead kids being stupid with guns...

As I understand, police tapes can still be released, but the police can now refuse to do it.

Even so, this is the complete opposite of what they should be doing.

 

[Shokew]

As I understand, police tapes can still be released, but the police can now refuse to do it.

Even so, this is the complete opposite of what they should be doing.

Exactly, it's gonna lead to more riots and/or (other) disorderly conduct (see BLM, as expected.).

 

[RomanesEuntDomus]

Exactly, it's gonna lead to more riots and/or (other) disorderly conduct (see BLM, as expected.).

When people die under more than questionable circumstances, less transparency is the dumbest thing to announce.

 

[Ineedahero]

No, the JHU study you link merely shows that the police have been making less arrests. They offer various theories for this, one of which is the police pulling back. And as they elaborate on the implications of that, one suggestion of theirs is that the police are (correctly) being more discretionary. That is, they're doing their jobs properly.

Additionally, they didn't find evidence that showed that police activity, either increased or decreased, kicked off any crime waves. These points can be found both in the opening introduction and in the Joint Conclusions section.

I didn't say that increased or decreased policing kicked off any crime waves. I did say that the report found a measurable impact of the death of Freddie Gray on the amount of proactive policing. Which it does:

Arrests declined further from April 20, 2015 through July 12, 2015, even after removing the complex pattern of arrests that emerged during the week of unrest. These declines are consistent with the widely discussed claim that the Baltimore police pulled back from some routine policing activity in response to a perceived lack of support from the city’s leadership.

As far as the other study is concerned, it's focused largely on homicide. To me, homicide data studies are mostly navel gazing. Homicide is a particularly rare crime, and a single, unrelated data point can really warp the data. It's good for sounding dramatic and scaring the kids from the suburbs, but I'm not particularly interested in it. I'm much more interested in data involving gang activity, because that's a much more measurable proxy for homicide.

Reports often use homicide data because it largely standardised across a wide area - homicide generally looks the same no matter where it happens or who puts it in the system. Because of this, it's significantly easier than more nebulous crimes like 'gang activity' to track and plot.

But fuck this, none of this conversation has been amusing in the slightest, so I am done. You can't even admit that you might potentially not know everything - to the point where criminologists are now just navel-gazing hysterics - so believe what you like.

 

[Marvin]

I didn't say that increased or decreased policing kicked off any crime waves. I did say that the report found a measurable impact of the death of Freddie Gray on the amount of proactive policing. Which it does:

No, it says it's "consistent with ...".

Reports often use homicide data because it largely standardised across a wide area - homicide generally looks the same no matter where it happens or who puts it in the system. Because of this, it's significantly easier than more nebulous crimes like 'gang activity' to track and plot.

It's easier data to acquire, but that doesn't mean it gives us a better insight into anything.

 

[The Great Chandler]

They dropped the curfew. Hell come to Charlotte.

 

[AnOminous]

No, it says it's "consistent with ...".

It's easier data to acquire, but that doesn't mean it gives us a better insight into anything.

"Me not getting murdered" is one of things that is of more than academic interest. It's also a useful metric because it isn't at all subjective.

 

[Internet War Criminal]

When I made that comment, I knew it would be controversial. I thought it through very carefully. I said it in spite of the public perception of the situation.

Your description of the situation is a popular one. But based on my experiences, I believe it to be extremely warped when it comes to day-to-day life in these neighborhoods. I sincerely believe many, many people talking about these issues have no clue what they're talking about.

Police are not shaking in their boots every day. Virtually all of their work is tedious beat work. Yes, going into a shitty neighborhood is scary. But plenty of people, the people who live there, do it every day just fine. And they don't have the protection that a badge affords.

I know a lot of people believe that the situation is the exact opposite, especially when I claim that being a cop makes you safer. They think that natives have it easier, whereas being a cop makes you a likely target. I think that sort of view is not based on facts, but more hyped up media cliches. Worrying about being forced to squeal like a pig on a vacation in Appalachia is not a reasonable worry, and worrying about getting lynched in the projects because you're wearing a badge is not a reasonable worry.

I sympathize with people worrying. It's an understandable, human emotion. But if you can't separate reality from fantasy, then you probably shouldn't be a cop. Like, if some war movie scares you, don't sign up for the army. And if the Wire scares you, don't become a cop.

As far as media exposure goes: I'm also not really that convinced that it's a reasonable worry either. For every Mark Fuhrman there is, there are a bajillion Officer Ruby's (dude who shot Korryn Gaines) out there who will be forgotten in a few months.

Statistically a cop is 18.5 times more likely to be shot by a black guy than a black guy is to be shot by a cop

So yeah you mostly wrote nonsense

 

[HeirenPlaya]

From what I've seen, the Chinese hive mind is mostly prevelant to the older generations, due to a large number of them communicating better in Chinese, and therefore other Chinese people, rather than English. The black hive mind seems to have a different cause.

I was referring to the Chinese in China, not Chinese Americans.

 

[Overcast]

Obviously the white cis heteronormative patriarchy forced the black officer to kill an innocent black man for no reason!



Fixed that for you.

Wasn't Ronald Rhegan generally considered to be alright? Just curious.

Anyway, it saddens me to see things turning out the way they are.

Growing up, I don't really remember race relations being THIS tense before.

I've been raised to be respectful towards everyone, regardless of their skin color or gender. And some of the coolest people I know happen to be black.

What this group is doing is trying to destroy the friendship I have with those people. Push us against each other.

And trying to remove statues or whatever of influential people from the Confederacy may seem noble from a certain perspective, but what it actually does is essentially erasing history. One of the most important reasons for history is to make sure future generations don't repeat the mistakes of their forefathers.

By trying to destroy historical evidence, you're increasing the chances of something like slavery or genocide happening in this country again.

We have forgotten our past, and now it's costing us our future. If the people running for president indicates anything.

 

[Chiang Kai-shek]

What this group is doing is trying to destroy the friendship I have with those people. Push us against each other.

I believe it's more a combination of factors. I think how the media reports these incidents is another reason for riots IMO. The media really likes to sensationalize these sort of things as part of some bigger problem when in general they seem to small isolated incidents. But I could be wrong about that, that's just how I see it.