Moralistic Therapeutic Deism - America's National Religion - Discuss

[Preacher ✝]

This concept was first introduced around the mid 2000s in an effort to quantify the religious beliefs of America's youth.

The study examined people of various religious backgrounds and found the majority of them all believe in the same god.

The god (lower case g because we're not talking about the real God) of Moralistic Therapeutic Deism is defined as such:

1. A god exists who created and ordered the world and watches over human life on earth.
2. god wants people to be good, nice, and fair to each other, as taught in the Bible and by most world religions.
3. The central goal of life is to be happy and to feel good about oneself.
4. god does not need to be particularly involved in one's life except when god is needed to resolve a problem.
5. Good people go to heaven when they die.

Furthering this discussion, Bishop Barron made the case that this is not a sudden phenomena but the result of multiple generations of theological decline. Throughout history the most common way for a religion to spread was through inheritance. You inherit the religion of your parents as they did before them and so on. With the MTD people, their parents didnt fail to pass on religion, they passed on MTD in the name of something else.

As a Catholic I can, unfortunately, say that I have known multiple people who purport to be Catholic but when you talk to them about what they believe it turns out to be MTD.

Have you had experience with MTD people? Are you an MTD person?

Discuss MTD, its theological implications, and anything else relevant here.

 

[Agamemnon Busmalis]

This is probably what the majority of people have believed at least since the beginning of the Christian era.

There wasn't exactly spectacular catechesis in the past, it's a perpetual problem. People greatly overestimate the level of devotion to orthodox Christianity in the past.

 

[HyperboreanRightsActivist]

American secular religion is just a conclave of liberal faggots who think God should conform to their very specific personal ethics and believe that *insert group they don't like* will go to HELL for having opinions they don't like.

 

[Karen of Human Resources]

It's the natural base layer based on what the majority of people can manage.

Most people are not academic. There are men like Thomas Aquinas who can process and imbibe huge quantities of Catholic lore and shit out new canon as if there were no tomorrow.

What we see in the west are the entry level simplified form of what Christianity teaches.

1: God created the world. How, why, beyond that not so much.
2: God says he is good. Without any real knowledge of the contents of the bible to dispute that taken at face value, they would presume they are supposed to be good too.
3: God says he is good. Why would a good god create people to be unhappy? I'm a parent and I don't wish for my creations to be unhappy.
4: People saw God in more places in the past. As the end of the age of miracles coincidentally ended with the start of the age of photography and video, people have fewer places to see or impose him on top.
5: Again, God tells he is good. Good people put bad people in jail, not set them on fire forever and take pleasure in their pain via the edifying knowledge that the punishment was "just" (which, the saints in perfect communion with God apparently do).

I wouldn't be upset that people are poorly schooled in their faith. The only reason it's still so popular is like Islam normies genuinely don't know about the unpleasantness of the contents and accept the "We are a religion of good people" line at face value.

 

[Vibromatic Heart Bed]

What exactly is the problem with MTD? It just sounds to me like a very simplified version of christianity (be good to others, treat them as you wish you be treated etc.) and while this isn't particularly academic it's also not a bad way for the average person to get through life. Not everyone needs to be a navel-gazing theologian/philosopher.

Overall I think it's just religion running it's course. As humans evolve, they rely less on religious texts to dictate how to be "good". You don't need some convoluted/questionable/outdated catechism to tell you to be honest and kind, you just kinda pick it up from being raised in a prosocial community.

 

[Squishie PP]

Niggercattle have niggercattle religion, more news at 11

 

[Preacher ✝]

There wasn't exactly spectacular catechesis in the past, it's a perpetual problem.

Absolutely true, I know my own catechesis was lacking and it contributed to my lapse in faith. There seems to be a pervasive idea that kids need to be taught about the faith at a certain age but also that age is too young to fully appreciate it.

I think the solution would be to stop thinking that catechesis has a stopping point, it should be a lifetime thing.

1: God created the world. How, why, beyond that not so much.
2: God says he is good. Without any real knowledge of the contents of the bible to dispute that taken at face value, they would presume they are supposed to be good too.
3: God says he is good. Why would a good god create people to be unhappy? I'm a parent and I don't wish for my creations to be unhappy.
4: People saw God in more places in the past. As the end of the age of miracles coincidentally ended with the start of the age of photography and video, people have fewer places to see or impose him on top.
5: Again, God tells he is good. Good people put bad people in jail, not set them on fire forever and take pleasure in their pain via the edifying knowledge that the punishment was "just" (which, the saints in perfect communion with God apparently do).

1. How and why God made the world is still considered a mystery.
2. God is good, knowledge of the bible would affirm this not dispute it.
3. The problem of evil, simply put something that appears evil in our limited mortal perspective likely serves a greater good that only God can understand. You're a parent, do you let your kids eat cake for every meal? I bet that would make them happy.
4. I've attached an article on contemporary Eucharistic miracles. Miracles did not stop happening when we invented photography, but they are less publicized than they ought to be, however that also prevents them from being sensationalized so its a disputed point.
5. Good people don't exist. "Mark 10:18 So Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is,God"

What exactly is the problem with MTD?

Which brings us to this, the problem is its false. We have the true religion already and this isnt it. It's oversimplified to the point that its lost its moral back bone. The god of MTD is a mockery of the real God and God doesn't care for being mocked.

 

[Karen of Human Resources]

@Preacher ✝

I see what you're saying, and fundamentally disagree with it naturally, but you appear to be arguing against those statements.

I'm not your interlocutor, nor are those my opinions. But they are, I'm sure you will agree, a fairly apt description of normie westerner opinions on God and the supernatural.

Your responses themselves do not, and will not, resonate. There are people pre disposed to academia and mysticism, which your response contains parts of; this is not the default setting in most humans. Especially not those in a culture in which the supernatural does not, and has never featured, in most of their lives.

If you say this to the average Gen Z white; they're going to answer your bible quotes with random lines from other "profound" literature like Taylor Swifts biography and your grand claims of miracles with their own equally profound stories of feeling "valid".

As has been mentioned elsewhere, we grossly overestimate the piety of the Medieval Christian and Islamic worlds. In the same way that while they were obliged to offer tribute to the Genius of the Roman Emperor as a deity-in-waiting, the plebs did it out of obligation rather than any coherent theology or belief.

What you are esposing is too convoluted. It isn't even a matter of it being true or the witness being lazy, occams razor tears it apart from the level most of the population is approaching it from.

But then again, the Catholic faith itself recognises this. According to Our Lady of Fatima, the majority of all humanity that has ever been including Catholics are damned.

 

[quisquiliae]

Without getting too deep in the weeds the problem with MTD is that it is impossible to have a cohesive culture with a "religion" that is just a therapeutic delusion based on each individual's personal subjective "good". Not only does this remove belief from tradition and history, but "good" just becomes whatever benefits me or what manufactured consensus tells me is good, usually some combination of the two. You can probably extrapolate from there. Mine is a bit more of a secular look but ultimately OP is correct when he says:

Which brings us to this, the problem is its false. We have the true religion already and this isnt it. It's oversimplified to the point that its lost its moral back bone. The god of MTD is a mockery of the real God and God doesn't care for being mocked.

If you're a person of faith life seems completely bleak without it, and I'm sure to some extent the reverse is true, although I could never bring myself to believe someone is completely dead to the spiritual. This is probably an issue where believers and non-believers will likely just be talking past each other.

On the subject of Christians in the past compared to the MTDs of today: I don't expect the average person to be a theologian, but in the past they were at least more in touch with their religion and it's traditions. They had to be because of how ever present it was in every single day of their lives.

If I want to be super cynical I would blame the trend of MTD on Protestantism generally, and the infinite shattering it lends itself too, especially in America.

 

[Preacher ✝]

According to Our Lady of Fatima, the majority of all humanity that has ever been including Catholics are damned.

I am not familiar with that part of the teachings from Fatima, and it runs counter to the official Church doctrine. Since the Church has never declared anyone to be in Hell (the canonized Saints are declared to be in Heaven) the official stance is that hell might be empty of human souls and that's the reality we pray for.

If the normie masses are genuinely incapable of comprehending the true faith then it stands to reason they would be granted salvation by God's mercy.

You see unlike US Law, ignorance is a valid excuse with God. All those sentinelese islanders who've never met anyone from the civilized world are basically guaranteed to be in heaven because they were never told about Jesus Christ. Now it does get a bit interesting with the normie masses as they do have a concept of Jesus Christ and an extremely simplified idea of what he was teaching, so really they could go either way but my gut says God would show mercy.

If you're a person of faith life seems completely bleak without it, and I'm sure to some extent the reverse is true

Having seen things from both sides of that coin in my life I can say that, at least for me, the reverse is not true, it was just as bleak as one might imagine being a slave to sin is.

I don't expect the average person to be a theologian, but in the past they were at least more in touch with their religion and it's traditions. They had to be because of how ever present it was in every single day of their lives.

Neither do I, and you're right, but there was also a greater sense of obedience to the Church. In this day and age everyone feels entitled to question everything and it makes it hard for them to believe anything that hasn't been scrutinized to their satisfaction. The irony being that Catholicism holds up to all scrutiny but they lack the necessary knowledge and understanding to appreciate that, and they don't care to learn. The entitlement extends to the terms by which the scrutiny is applied, especially when they're nonsense.

If I want to be super cynical I would blame the trend of MTD on Protestantism generally, and the infinite shattering it lends itself too, especially in America.

Spoiler: Basically this

though I'd imagine even the protestants are disgusted by their lack of biblical knowledge. That is one of the main appeals of protestantism, all you need is the bible, very simple, no catechism, no communion of saints, no 2000 years of history and tradition, just a book and whatever you decide the words in it mean. Then you have the MTDs who wont even read the book.

 

[wtfNeedSignUp]

That's also the definition of Reform Judaism as well. People want all the nice thing about religion without that pesky accountability. God is sky daddy you whine to and never really do anything for besides the bare minimum that doesn't impact your lifestyle.

And it gets even worse with Spiritualism/Exotic religions that remove god as well and just stick to Democrat values being the true religion.

This is probably what the majority of people have believed at least since the beginning of the Christian era.

There wasn't exactly spectacular catechesis in the past, it's a perpetual problem. People greatly overestimate the level of devotion to orthodox Christianity in the past.

I don't think so, the sticking point are 3 and 4:

3. The central goal of life is to be happy and to feel good about oneself.
4. god does not need to be particularly involved in one's life except when god is needed to resolve a problem.

3 is iconic modern narcissism of "I deserve things" which wouldn't survive in a place without modern medicine and convenience. The goal of life in the past was to leave a legacy behind you, not to burn it all down to buy a car you always wanted.
With 4 people constantly prayed to god and celebrated it for basically every aspect of their life. Nowadays due to science and lack of community we just invoke god unless we want fast karma.

 

[Agamemnon Busmalis]

3 is iconic modern narcissism of "I deserve things" which wouldn't survive in a place without modern medicine and convenience.

Come on now, the entire history of rebellion and revolution in human history is "I deserve things". This is hardly a radical or new concept.

People today really do believe they're something special or at the end of history when this is merely a more complex iteration of the same fucking cycle since Olduvai.

 

[Preacher ✝]

Come on now, the entire history of rebellion and revolution in human history is "I deserve things". This is hardly a radical or new concept

I think there's a distinction and what we are seeing today is more of a "I am  entitled to things."

 

[Agamemnon Busmalis]

I think there's a distinction and what we are seeing today is more of a "I am  entitled to things."

The plebs felt entitled to their bread in ancient Rome too.

There was a time in my life when I seriously considered the priesthood and taught RCIA. The only thing I pray for now is final perseverance.

 

[Preacher ✝]

There was a time in my life when I seriously considered the priesthood and taught RCIA.

Sad to hear you didnt stick with it, we need more priests and its something I've considered myself. No shame in backing out though, its not meant to be for everyone and you need to be sure.

 

[grimacefetishist]

I'm a cringe shitlord atheist with no religion of origin and I always found this confusing. If your lifestyle is identical to mine then it's hypocritical to Claim you worship Jesus, and you obviously just say it to avoid friction. I don't admire that trait. I know a lot of ex Muslims and ex amish and I respect them a lot for being honest about what they believe.

It's also the nietzche concept that most people will be incorrect about most things, statistically, so you aim for the answers that are closest to correct. That's MTD.

 

[wtfNeedSignUp]

I'll add that it might also be a coping mechanism for a multi-religious society since it removes the "my neighbour/child is going to hell" thoughts.

Come on now, the entire history of rebellion and revolution in human history is "I deserve things". This is hardly a radical or new concept.

People today really do believe they're something special or at the end of history when this is merely a more complex iteration of the same fucking cycle since Olduvai.

Like Preacher said, I meant it more as the Entitlement angle. If people in the past behaved like today, they'd sell their ancestral home for a fancy horse.

 

[Mnutu]

What exactly is the problem with MTD? It just sounds to me like a very simplified version of christianity (be good to others, treat them as you wish you be treated etc.) and while this isn't particularly academic it's also not a bad way for the average person to get through life. Not everyone needs to be a navel-gazing theologian/philosopher.

Overall I think it's just religion running it's course. As humans evolve, they rely less on religious texts to dictate how to be "good". You don't need some convoluted/questionable/outdated catechism to tell you to be honest and kind, you just kinda pick it up from being raised in a prosocial community.

The problem comes when life comes knocking and fucks everything up. The moment you have to ask a serious question it’s going to
1 Be hard to understand, and having been preconditioned to not challenge it before makes it harder to deal with in a healthy way.
2 Provide an answer you didn’t expect and don’t like, which requires you to bend yourself to fit both ends or break away completely.
3 The method you’ve used to get to the answer is likely untenable, and thus you’ve gone from a shaky underpinning to a completely unstable underpinning.

Building your base and strengthening isn’t so much about what you build but learning how to build and strengthen it, and see where to fix it.

 

[Preacher ✝]

Building your base and strengthening isn’t so much about what you build but learning how to build and strengthen it, and see where to fix it.

One of the most beautiful and powerful elements of Catholicism is its robust and deep theology. Read Aquinas (attached).

The majority of people, including practicing Catholics, do not have a complete understanding of theology because there's so much of it.

People tend to focus on the parts that are most relevant to them, which is fine, but it makes it easy for people to forget that there's a lot more too.

 

[Str8Bustah]

What exactly is the problem with MTD? It just sounds to me like a very simplified version of christianity (be good to others, treat them as you wish you be treated etc.) and while this isn't particularly academic it's also not a bad way for the average person to get through life. Not everyone needs to be a navel-gazing theologian/philosopher.

Overall I think it's just religion running it's course. As humans evolve, they rely less on religious texts to dictate how to be "good". You don't need some convoluted/questionable/outdated catechism to tell you to be honest and kind, you just kinda pick it up from being raised in a prosocial community.

This line of thought is how you bar yourself from receiving the Holy Spirit and the grace of God, through which you begin to attain Theosis and, with effort to maintain this grace, eventually join our Lord in Paradise. It's for the best if you just ignore it completely and seek the Lord's help.