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- 16 de Dic, 2019
A water treatment facility disguised as a lumber mill. Really?
Imperial Japan Thread - Were they really that bad?
- Iniciador del tema Alex Hogendorp
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- Registrado
- 13 de Mar, 2019
I've been there too, definitely a great experience but maybe I'm just biased as an American and I couldn't help but notice how they talked about the background of why the atomic bomb was dropped.
- Registrado
- 12 de Dic, 2022
They deserved those bombs. It was either that or a invasion that would make Normandie look like a schoolyard brawl. Allied casualties alone were in the millions, and the Japs... they were literally gonna give every civvie grenades and tel them to die for the Emperor. We made the right choice
- Registrado
- 1 de Feb, 2015
Some more thoughts about how the Imperial Jap system was highly dysfunctional and would have led to its own destruction, one way or another.
The imbalanced power dynamic between the military officer class and the civil government was not good for their ability to make sensible decisions in their national interest.
As early as the 1920s, the pro-nationalist military officers were assassinating civil government officials that they didn't like, gradually moving the Overton window of their nation's political discourse further into the pro-nationalist and pro-expansionist fringe, which culminated in the ultimate "tail wagging the dog" situation with the invasion of Manchuria and later North China, which were huge geopolitical decisions triggered by spur-of-the-moment border violations initiated by low-ranking officers acting without forewarning their immediate superiors in Mainland Asia, much less the general staff in Japan. Instead of trying to disavow, punish, or rein in these low-level hotheads among the officer class, the higher-ups in the military and government had to go along with it for fear of having their pro-nationalist, pro-expansionist credentials challenged.
It would be like if German hostilities against the Soviet Union were started not by direct and concerted orders of the Fuhrer and OKW for large scale army movements after months of careful planning and preparation, but instead by some rogue infantry battalion commander on the Polish frontier suddenly deciding to storm the Soviet positions on the other side of the line one day without even bothering to check in with anyone at regimental HQ before crossing the border.
The Japs were just lucky that they enjoyed such a huge qualitative advantage over the Chinese that they didn't get into immediate trouble and were unable to perceive the ultimate impossibility of winning a total war against the Chinese.
The so-called "victory disease" starting with the First Sino-Jap War and the Russo-Jap War also really clouded their military and governmental leadership's strategic thinking, which harmed their ability to act in their national interest.
The imbalanced power dynamic between the military officer class and the civil government was not good for their ability to make sensible decisions in their national interest.
As early as the 1920s, the pro-nationalist military officers were assassinating civil government officials that they didn't like, gradually moving the Overton window of their nation's political discourse further into the pro-nationalist and pro-expansionist fringe, which culminated in the ultimate "tail wagging the dog" situation with the invasion of Manchuria and later North China, which were huge geopolitical decisions triggered by spur-of-the-moment border violations initiated by low-ranking officers acting without forewarning their immediate superiors in Mainland Asia, much less the general staff in Japan. Instead of trying to disavow, punish, or rein in these low-level hotheads among the officer class, the higher-ups in the military and government had to go along with it for fear of having their pro-nationalist, pro-expansionist credentials challenged.
It would be like if German hostilities against the Soviet Union were started not by direct and concerted orders of the Fuhrer and OKW for large scale army movements after months of careful planning and preparation, but instead by some rogue infantry battalion commander on the Polish frontier suddenly deciding to storm the Soviet positions on the other side of the line one day without even bothering to check in with anyone at regimental HQ before crossing the border.
The Japs were just lucky that they enjoyed such a huge qualitative advantage over the Chinese that they didn't get into immediate trouble and were unable to perceive the ultimate impossibility of winning a total war against the Chinese.
The so-called "victory disease" starting with the First Sino-Jap War and the Russo-Jap War also really clouded their military and governmental leadership's strategic thinking, which harmed their ability to act in their national interest.
CAPTAIN HAPPY
kiwifarms.net
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- 24 de Jun, 2021
Here's an average yank next to your godking emperor, Toshi.
- Registrado
- 21 de Mar, 2019
Ultimately they paid for it either way so there's no real reason to hold a grudge
To add to your later post, reading up on how the Japanese came to surrender is a fucking trip and you come to appreciate just how close the leadership was to being coup'd so the war could continue
- Registrado
- 1 de Jul, 2017
Depends. I do acknowledge that like the British and American empires, Imperial Japan killed millions of people. But let's put this in context. Some alleged Japanese atrocities are totally fake and made up by Chinese propaganda and postwar Japanese leftists. Like go look up the "contest to kill 100 people with a sword", where supposedly two officers competed at killing people like it was a home run derby. In actuality, it was based on propaganda saying the Chinese were so dumb that Japanese soldiers could easily hack them up. Alleged pictures of it are pictures of actual POW massacres, which the officers supposedly involved may have been participants in.
Then you also have to take into account the situation in China. It was a country run by a dictatorship who relied on violent criminal gangs for control in places they actually had control over, and in the many places they didn't they relied on outright warlords. This was not a stable country, so any war was inevitably going to cause mass famine and death. The Chinese also destroyed their own flood control systems to slow the Japanese down that killed over a million Chinese and started a fire in their own city that burnt it down and killed over 50,000 people. There was also Chairman Mao who worked to undermine the Chinese whenever he could despite being nominally allies against Japan, and the feeling was of course mutual. Hence it's totally wrong to blame the mass death in China on Japan.
Let's also keep in mind that Imperial Japan built Korea and China into major industrial powers. Many of the South Korean elite trace their political origin to the Koreans who helped run Japanese corporations in Korea. China's industrial heartland before the 90s was Manchuria--all Japanese built, although Mao liquidated the local Chinese. The political system and ideology of Manchukuo is pretty interesting BTW and it's too bad it gets stereotyped as just "Japanese colonizers justifying their looting."
A lot of anti-Imperial Japan views is just holdovers from anti-Asian views society held in the past. While they did view themselves as a master race, they were clearly willing to work with anyone. They also supported dismantling empires in a controlled fashion, basically not leaving them open to communism like the West did in decolonization. Given the experiences of Mao, the Vietnam War, Chiang, the Kims, Pol Pot, Ne Win, Sukarno/Suharto, it seems reasonable to suggest that the Greater East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere was a reasonable alternative to what actually happened. A lot of Japanese crimes did happen, but they weren't too different from what "good guy" countries like Britain, France, and the United States did. Oh no, Japan spread plague fleas and sponsored opium dealers, well guess what, the US spread syphilis and crack cocaine among blacks.
I also have to praise State Shinto. It is probably the purest form of paganism in the modern age which the Imperial government carved out of a variety of folk traditions to give the people new hope and direction. Before then, Japan had a huge problem with corrupt Buddhist monks and temples, but the creation of State Shinto liberated Shinto (the true Japanese religion) from the foreign tradition of Buddhism. Hell, arguably it invented Shinto, since there was historically little unity between the diverse traditions of Shinto beside its association with the Imperial family. IMO it's a great model for whites if we ever decide to ditch Christianity and its retarded offshoots like liberalism and Marxism, or all races in general.
Then you also have to take into account the situation in China. It was a country run by a dictatorship who relied on violent criminal gangs for control in places they actually had control over, and in the many places they didn't they relied on outright warlords. This was not a stable country, so any war was inevitably going to cause mass famine and death. The Chinese also destroyed their own flood control systems to slow the Japanese down that killed over a million Chinese and started a fire in their own city that burnt it down and killed over 50,000 people. There was also Chairman Mao who worked to undermine the Chinese whenever he could despite being nominally allies against Japan, and the feeling was of course mutual. Hence it's totally wrong to blame the mass death in China on Japan.
Let's also keep in mind that Imperial Japan built Korea and China into major industrial powers. Many of the South Korean elite trace their political origin to the Koreans who helped run Japanese corporations in Korea. China's industrial heartland before the 90s was Manchuria--all Japanese built, although Mao liquidated the local Chinese. The political system and ideology of Manchukuo is pretty interesting BTW and it's too bad it gets stereotyped as just "Japanese colonizers justifying their looting."
A lot of anti-Imperial Japan views is just holdovers from anti-Asian views society held in the past. While they did view themselves as a master race, they were clearly willing to work with anyone. They also supported dismantling empires in a controlled fashion, basically not leaving them open to communism like the West did in decolonization. Given the experiences of Mao, the Vietnam War, Chiang, the Kims, Pol Pot, Ne Win, Sukarno/Suharto, it seems reasonable to suggest that the Greater East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere was a reasonable alternative to what actually happened. A lot of Japanese crimes did happen, but they weren't too different from what "good guy" countries like Britain, France, and the United States did. Oh no, Japan spread plague fleas and sponsored opium dealers, well guess what, the US spread syphilis and crack cocaine among blacks.
I also have to praise State Shinto. It is probably the purest form of paganism in the modern age which the Imperial government carved out of a variety of folk traditions to give the people new hope and direction. Before then, Japan had a huge problem with corrupt Buddhist monks and temples, but the creation of State Shinto liberated Shinto (the true Japanese religion) from the foreign tradition of Buddhism. Hell, arguably it invented Shinto, since there was historically little unity between the diverse traditions of Shinto beside its association with the Imperial family. IMO it's a great model for whites if we ever decide to ditch Christianity and its retarded offshoots like liberalism and Marxism, or all races in general.
- Registrado
- 19 de Ago, 2020
They attacked the wrong country. No, I don't mean the US. They should have gone for Soviets rather than China.
- Registrado
- 30 de Abr, 2016
They were barbarous bastards barely removed from a medieval lifestyle and their society reflected that.
MacArthur did nothing wrong and probably didn't go far enough.
MacArthur did nothing wrong and probably didn't go far enough.
- Registrado
- 14 de Ene, 2023
Consider the fact that Japan only began their industrialization process mid nineteenth century and much of their mindset was still stuck in middle age mentality.
Japanese Navy and Japanese army were two different animals altogether. Japanese with education preferred to enlist with the navy. Army on the other hand received many of their forces from conscription and peasants.
Anyway, I'd strongly argue that despite the looting and harsh treatments, the industry and institutions left behind by Japanese in occupied states, like Korea and Taiwan, were the single greatest reason for their prosperity today.
Japanese Navy and Japanese army were two different animals altogether. Japanese with education preferred to enlist with the navy. Army on the other hand received many of their forces from conscription and peasants.
Anyway, I'd strongly argue that despite the looting and harsh treatments, the industry and institutions left behind by Japanese in occupied states, like Korea and Taiwan, were the single greatest reason for their prosperity today.
- Registrado
- 29 de Mar, 2023
Are you retarded or just pretending to be retarded?
Anyways, one of the reason why the Japanese wanted to attack China so bad is because they saw the KMT very quickly unify China and feared they might easily recapture Manchuria (and the Allies would probably be fine with this) if left alone, which would mean losing huge amounts of resources like coal wood and Chinese laborers, and also opening up Korea to be also invaded. Japanese dreams of empire was doomed from the start when they decided to project their power in Mainland Asia.
CowBoyCormack
kiwifarms.net
- Registrado
- 10 de Jun, 2020
If you want I could get into this as this is actually something I've looked into quite considerably.
If you want to be an apologist for Japan, fair enough- for the war crimes, theres honestly no denying them. 731 was brutal and its not exaggerated, as were the Japanese as well
On China, most of these war crimes were retributive because of the way that the populace helped the Chinese take pot shots at Japanese troops, surrendered forces flying fake white flags only to later attack the Japanese, etc. There's also a different mindset entirely as well from the period.
I'm not sure how much you know on the subject though, but State Shinto isn't that crazy and wasn't really the main religion the IJA or IJA really followed. Nichiren Buddhism is, for example. From Ishiwara to Tojo, that was the religious backdrop, that the Japanese would liberate the world from conflict and a dark cycle where it was impossible to be peaceful, but instead one must embrace violence to liberate existence from it. I'm simplifying things here, but its really a fascinating topic overall. Its a militaristic and frankly apocalyptic form of Buddhism that most of the craziest generals actually followed during that period, and groups such as the League of Blood and Black Dragon society followed (in addition to many Samurai from back in the day). You really have to be crazy to throw yourself under a tank with a grenade or to embrace Kamikaze, for example.
I don't know much about corrupt Buddhist traditions in Japan before this period, as I havn't really heard of any? Not sure why you bring this up.
If you want to be an apologist for Japan, fair enough- for the war crimes, theres honestly no denying them. 731 was brutal and its not exaggerated, as were the Japanese as well
On China, most of these war crimes were retributive because of the way that the populace helped the Chinese take pot shots at Japanese troops, surrendered forces flying fake white flags only to later attack the Japanese, etc. There's also a different mindset entirely as well from the period.
I'm not sure how much you know on the subject though, but State Shinto isn't that crazy and wasn't really the main religion the IJA or IJA really followed. Nichiren Buddhism is, for example. From Ishiwara to Tojo, that was the religious backdrop, that the Japanese would liberate the world from conflict and a dark cycle where it was impossible to be peaceful, but instead one must embrace violence to liberate existence from it. I'm simplifying things here, but its really a fascinating topic overall. Its a militaristic and frankly apocalyptic form of Buddhism that most of the craziest generals actually followed during that period, and groups such as the League of Blood and Black Dragon society followed (in addition to many Samurai from back in the day). You really have to be crazy to throw yourself under a tank with a grenade or to embrace Kamikaze, for example.
I don't know much about corrupt Buddhist traditions in Japan before this period, as I havn't really heard of any? Not sure why you bring this up.
- Registrado
- 15 de Oct, 2023
There was a very long and complex lead up to World War 2 and specifically Japan's expansionism that goes back to the late 1800's and the First Sino-Japanese War. You have to look at the entire chain of events as a collective to make sense of it all.
Did Japanese troops kill a lot of people during their campaigns in Asia ? Yes. Were the stories, anecdotes and statistics blown way out of proportion (such as the so called "Rape of Nanjing") ? Absolutely. Did Unit 731 conduct illegal experiments on live humans ? Yes. Were the scale of these experiments subject to similar hyperbole ? Extremely likely.
Did Japan particularly mistreat American and European prisoners of war ? Yes. Again, the scale and exact veracity of the anecdotes however, can be argued.
History is written by the victors and China at that time was seen as being on the side of the "good guys" i.e. the side that won. I recall that Norm McDonald joke about how the good guys had miraculously won every single war in human history. Funny how that works isn't it ?
A lot of Japan's alleged war crimes are embellished and fabricated by the side that won, similar to what happened with the Holocaust. I mean, how many cases of masturbation machines, "It was real in my mind" and bitches swallowing and shitting diamonds over and over (literally) do we have to encounter before our bullshit sensors start ringing ? I digress though.
For whatever crimes Japan committed during the war, I believe that they paid tenfold in the waning months of World War 2. The nukes, the immediate deaths from the fallout and the generations of children born with congenital deformities due to high radiation levels were terrible, but do you know what was arguably worse ?
The indiscriminate fire-bombings of major civilian centers such as Tokyo and other cities killed several multiples of the people who died in the nuclear fires. We're talking several hundreds of thousands dead from those bombings. I once read that 70% of modern Tokyo was absolutely flattened during this time.
The Chinese and the Koreans are mad that they weren't the ones who exacted this vengeance, but human suffering is suffering all the same. They like to cry about asinine shit such as the Japanese never apologized for their alleged war crimes. To this, I have 2 thoughts:
Firstly, what greater apology can there be than the billions that Japan poured into both China and Korea, paving the way for what those countries have become in the present day ? We're talking everything from technology transfers to training up their populace, educating their students at Japanese Universities and countless civil engineering and construction projects. Cities like Seoul were straight up built from scratch by Japan.
They also refused to destroy the industrial infrastructure that had been built in Korea and Taiwan over decades. You do realize that this infrastructure became the foundations for a huge swathe of the large companies that exist today in those countries, right ?
Secondly, we act as though China and Korea haven't done horrific shit to hundreds of thousands or millions of people either within their own borders or in other countries. You go far back enough and everyone has blood on their hands.
The truth is that it will never be enough. There will never be an "apology" that is deemed to be sufficient because being a perpetual victim is the most profitable of all positions to be in. The only difference is that unlike Germany where people are taught to hate themselves from a very young age, Japan has tried to fight against that kind of shit. For that, I applaud them.
I'm not here to change anyone's mind. This is the kind of debate where people get stuck in on their side of the battlefield so to speak, but I have unwavering faith that what I believe is true for the most part and I don't care if people think that I'm a lunatic.
Did Japanese troops kill a lot of people during their campaigns in Asia ? Yes. Were the stories, anecdotes and statistics blown way out of proportion (such as the so called "Rape of Nanjing") ? Absolutely. Did Unit 731 conduct illegal experiments on live humans ? Yes. Were the scale of these experiments subject to similar hyperbole ? Extremely likely.
Did Japan particularly mistreat American and European prisoners of war ? Yes. Again, the scale and exact veracity of the anecdotes however, can be argued.
History is written by the victors and China at that time was seen as being on the side of the "good guys" i.e. the side that won. I recall that Norm McDonald joke about how the good guys had miraculously won every single war in human history. Funny how that works isn't it ?
A lot of Japan's alleged war crimes are embellished and fabricated by the side that won, similar to what happened with the Holocaust. I mean, how many cases of masturbation machines, "It was real in my mind" and bitches swallowing and shitting diamonds over and over (literally) do we have to encounter before our bullshit sensors start ringing ? I digress though.
For whatever crimes Japan committed during the war, I believe that they paid tenfold in the waning months of World War 2. The nukes, the immediate deaths from the fallout and the generations of children born with congenital deformities due to high radiation levels were terrible, but do you know what was arguably worse ?
The indiscriminate fire-bombings of major civilian centers such as Tokyo and other cities killed several multiples of the people who died in the nuclear fires. We're talking several hundreds of thousands dead from those bombings. I once read that 70% of modern Tokyo was absolutely flattened during this time.
The Chinese and the Koreans are mad that they weren't the ones who exacted this vengeance, but human suffering is suffering all the same. They like to cry about asinine shit such as the Japanese never apologized for their alleged war crimes. To this, I have 2 thoughts:
Firstly, what greater apology can there be than the billions that Japan poured into both China and Korea, paving the way for what those countries have become in the present day ? We're talking everything from technology transfers to training up their populace, educating their students at Japanese Universities and countless civil engineering and construction projects. Cities like Seoul were straight up built from scratch by Japan.
They also refused to destroy the industrial infrastructure that had been built in Korea and Taiwan over decades. You do realize that this infrastructure became the foundations for a huge swathe of the large companies that exist today in those countries, right ?
Secondly, we act as though China and Korea haven't done horrific shit to hundreds of thousands or millions of people either within their own borders or in other countries. You go far back enough and everyone has blood on their hands.
The truth is that it will never be enough. There will never be an "apology" that is deemed to be sufficient because being a perpetual victim is the most profitable of all positions to be in. The only difference is that unlike Germany where people are taught to hate themselves from a very young age, Japan has tried to fight against that kind of shit. For that, I applaud them.
I'm not here to change anyone's mind. This is the kind of debate where people get stuck in on their side of the battlefield so to speak, but I have unwavering faith that what I believe is true for the most part and I don't care if people think that I'm a lunatic.
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- Registrado
- 29 de Mar, 2023
and you faggots call us niggers when we apply the same logic to Turkey-Armenia relations
wtfNeedSignUp
kiwifarms.net
- Registrado
- 17 de Dic, 2019
This whole historical revisionism is just gay. Just about every historical event is exaggerated and embellished in some way by every side that survived it, and the argument boils down to "grifting exist, so it must have never happened".
But especially here, you'd need to be insane to think the Imperial Japanese weren't horrible. And China doesn't really want to discuss how badly the Japanese fucked it up, or can consider itself an "ally" considering that nearly immediately they became commies and are ignored in the history books.
But especially here, you'd need to be insane to think the Imperial Japanese weren't horrible. And China doesn't really want to discuss how badly the Japanese fucked it up, or can consider itself an "ally" considering that nearly immediately they became commies and are ignored in the history books.
- Registrado
- 11 de Ago, 2022
- Registrado
- 16 de Dic, 2019
You can do this in the Way of the Samurai games.
- Registrado
- 1 de Jul, 2017
Japan was no more backwards before Commodore Perry arrived than parts of Europe like Spain or Russia or Latin America, and in many ways better off. Over half the population was literate, they had well-developed internal markets and transportation including canals and roads. After Perry arrived, they were modernizing and buying modern weapons and domestically building modern warships. The idea of late Edo Period Japan as "medieval" is a myth created by the Japs who overthrew them.
That's a specific flavor of Nichiren Buddhism. IIRC some of its advocates actually faced issues because their belief in Buddhism (or really just the Lotus Sutra) clashed with State Shinto. It's understandable since Nichiren Buddhism is the only truly Japanese version of Buddhism (all the others are either blatantly Chinese or were offshoots of Chinese Buddhism like the various Zen and Pure Land sects) and its founder's story is wrapped up in Japan's victory over the Mongols (which supposedly he predicted or some shit).
Because it's part of the reason why State Shinto existed and was rather rigid. See the haibutsu kishaku movement, which was because people were forced by the Tokugawa shoguns to register and donate to a locate temple lest they become outcasts--Tokugawa were overthrown, people were pissed and used the new Imperial cult ideologies as justification to burn and loot temples. The government didn't care either and actually helped them since they demolished Buddhist buildings on the premises of Shinto shrines. That's the relevant part, but Japanese Buddhist corruption goes back over a thousand years, and is why things like the Nichiren movement (which I've seen called "Buddhist Protestantism", since Nichiren simply wanted to reform a major sect of Buddhism but got kicked out and had to start his own) exists.
- Registrado
- 13 de Jun, 2016
Also let me add that despite what I've said earlier in the thread I fully agree with this. Japan has already apologized in multiple ways for their actions whether its through the suffering they endured (even if some argue it was justified from the suffering they caused), and the economic aid it gave to the nations it attacked. The Japanese do not need to go down the Germany road. Hell I think Japans largest punishment was the fact they were a warrior society for over a millennia and got pretty much completely defanged after being obliterated to hell and back in one war. It almost seems like a fantasy story when you think about it.
There is a minority of conservative revisionists in Japan that basically go "we dindu nuffin" but its not a mainstream view in Japan.