Hermaneutics in the Bible

[StolenWindows]

The Bible uses poems and allegorical stories (like Noah's flood) to demonstrate points and moral stories. I'm pretty sure the scribes didn't actually believe in a quote unquote "young earth". Noah's flood was a reference to a real life event that happened, but it was the Black Sea flood when neolithic farmers had to move away from the Black Sea coast (now a sea but then a freshwater lake) after getting flooded with saltwater from the Aegean Sea. The tower of Babel was about a ziggurat in Babylon (Etemenanki) and was a narrative from around the time of the Babylonian captivity under Nebuchadnezzar II. Egyptian captivity of the Jews never happened butvthere was an expulsion of Hyksos who were a Canaanite people. The modern land of Israel sits on Biblical Canaan from when Joshua conquered it. Baal worship was common among Israelites, but they did not create that religion. It was part of broader Canaanite culture. When Jesus died in 33AD, there was a lunar eclipse/blood moon.

 

[Stephanie Bustcakes]

If you read the new testament, the writings of the apostles, and quotes attributed to Jesus, you'll see they, at least in the 1st century, absolutely did believe those stories were literally true.

 

[StolenWindows]

If you read the new testament, the writings of the apostles, and quotes attributed to Jesus, you'll see they, at least in the 1st century, absolutely did believe those stories were literally true.

The Bible contradicted itself on many stories. One example being the Lord Jesus Christ. In Matthew Joseph's lineage was traced to King David. In Luke it was Mary.

 

[Stephanie Bustcakes]

The Bible contradicted itself on many stories. One example being the Lord Jesus Christ. In Matthew Joseph's lineage was traced to King David. In Luke it was Mary.

I'm not arguing that the Bible doesn't contradict itself, but I don't see how the example you've provided is contradictory. Why can't both parents be descended from David?

 

[Pelican Bones]

I'm pretty sure the scribes didn't actually believe in a quote unquote "young earth".

Why on earth would you think this?

 

[StolenWindows]

The Bible is a composite text, written by multiple authors over centuries. Contradictions and variations often reflect different traditions, purposes, and audiences, not a single unified “truth manual.” But you will never convince Kent Hovind of this.

 

[StolenWindows]

I'm not arguing that the Bible doesn't contradict itself, but I don't see how the example you've provided is contradictory. Why can't both parents be descended from David?

It's contradictory because Jesus in the Old Testament was prophecied to be a son of David. Not Joseph. Unless you believe Mary was in an incestuous relationship with Joseph.

 

[Pelican Bones]

What is your point with any of this?

 

[Stephanie Bustcakes]

It's contradictory because Jesus in the Old Testament was prophecied to be a son of David. Not Joseph. Unless you believe Mary was in an incestuous relationship with Joseph.

If Joseph and Mary were both descendants of David then they would be very distantly related, because David would have lived 900 years before they did. Nobody would think marrying your 35th cousin is incest. At that distance, they’d share about as much DNA as two people picked at random.

 

[fresh pair of socks]

If you want to discuss the Bible, it's helpful to first separate the OT and NT.

The first five books of the OT and much of the rest can be traced to 4 sources (Y source, E source, D source, and P source). None of these sources represents a single author or a single time period. The OT is a collection of ancient near east religious traditions and fictitious jewish history. It was written and complied over hundreds of years by many different people, which is why there are contradictions, redundancies, and mistakes.

The NT was mostly written and finished a little over 100 years after the birth of the Christ. The apostles were considered to have written their personal accounts of their time with Jesus, but modern Biblical scholars now believe they were written by other authors using first-hand sources. The four testaments are four separate accounts of the same event. None are quite the same, much like how four different people looking at the same event today will describe it in four different ways. Other parts of the NT, such as Paul's letters, are widely considered to have been written solely by Paul.

The NT of proto-orthodox Christian Church is roughly the same book that we read today. Unlike the OT, the NT has remained consistent.

As for Jesus in the OT, what you are talking about is called typology: the belief that Jesus fulfills the Biblical prophesies set out in the OT. It is a way to bridge the gap between the OT and NT. Jesus as the son of David, the passover Lamb, the Shepard, the King of Israel, the Temple, the prophesied Messiah. All events have played out exactly as God intended.

 

[PP Police]

The Bible uses poems and allegorical stories (like Noah's flood) to demonstrate points and moral stories. I'm pretty sure the scribes didn't actually believe in a quote unquote "young earth". Noah's flood was a reference to a real life event that happened, but it was the Black Sea flood when neolithic farmers had to move away from the Black Sea coast (now a sea but then a freshwater lake) after getting flooded with saltwater from the Aegean Sea. The tower of Babel was about a ziggurat in Babylon (Etemenanki) and was a narrative from around the time of the Babylonian captivity under Nebuchadnezzar II. Egyptian captivity of the Jews never happened butvthere was an expulsion of Hyksos who were a Canaanite people. The modern land of Israel sits on Biblical Canaan from when Joshua conquered it. Baal worship was common among Israelites, but they did not create that religion. It was part of broader Canaanite culture. When Jesus died in 33AD, there was a lunar eclipse/blood moon.

I’m a bit confused on the intent of this post. Are you wanting to discuss something specific about hermeneutics, do you have a question, or are you just wanting to share your thoughts…? Your OP seems to be lacking a coherent purpose from my perspective.

 

[StolenWindows]

I’m a bit confused on the intent of this post. Are you wanting to discuss something specific about hermeneutics, do you have a question, or are you just wanting to share your thoughts…? Your OP seems to be lacking a coherent purpose from my perspective.

Discuss bible literalism vs storytelling and perhaps some event discussion.

 

[Dagoth AMOGUS]

Discuss bible literalism vs storytelling and perhaps some event discussion.

It all happened, bro. Don’t trust me, trust God. To believe in God is to already believe in the supernatural. And if supernatural events were said to occur, well, then they did occur. And will occur, to include prophecy as well.

The only mistakes or contradictions you’ll find come from imperfect human understanding. The Ancient Greek and Hebrew of the Bible are very clear. And in the age of information, particularly AI, there is no question that can’t be answered regarding the Bible, except for when Jesus will return. Guy wants to keep us on our toes with that

 

[Candlelight Desolation]

The Bible contradicted itself on many stories. One example being the Lord Jesus Christ. In Matthew Joseph's lineage was traced to King David. In Luke it was Mary.

It never once contradicts itself. This is an old new atheist "gotcha" everyone's heard a million times.

If Joseph and Mary were both descendants of David then they would be very distantly related, because David would have lived 900 years before they did. Nobody would think marrying your 35th cousin is incest. At that distance, they’d share about as much DNA as two people picked at random.

Pay attention to David in the two accounts of Jesus' ancestry - one branches off from his son Nathan while the other is Solomon. David didn't just have one son.

 

[BigMan13]

The only mistakes or contradictions you’ll find come from imperfect human understanding. The Ancient Greek and Hebrew of the Bible are very clear. And in the age of information, particularly AI, there is no question that can’t be answered regarding the Bible, except for when Jesus will return. Guy wants to keep us on our toes with that

The Bible also insists on itself.

The Bible is a composite text, written by multiple authors over centuries. Contradictions and variations often reflect different traditions, purposes, and audiences, not a single unified “truth manual.” But you will never convince Kent Hovind of this.

Glad somebody else said it. It's also why Christians can never agree on anything regarding Christianity. I can only imagine the spergouts and passive aggression wars that happened in Christian intellectual circles within the Roman Empire over what got included and how it was written. The same thing as Wikipedia, 1,800+ years and nothing has changed in how self-insistent intellectualism plays out.

 

[StolenWindows]

The Bible also insists on itself.


Glad somebody else said it. It's also why Christians can never agree on anything regarding Christianity. I can only imagine the spergouts and passive aggression wars that happened in Christian intellectual circles within the Roman Empire over what got included and how it was written. The same thing as Wikipedia, 1,800+ years and nothing has changed in how self-insistent intellectualism plays out.

Honestly, this "young earth creationism" concept never even existed until the 1960s. Funny enough, the Bible even lowkey admits Adam and Eve were not the first man (read Genesis 4:14). Also, Cain's line died off. The "garden of eden" is located in Sumeria (modern-day southern Iraq). Very fitting, since that's where the first urban developments happened. It was the first advanced civilization. Jews are Canaanites, which would place them as Ham, but they're considered Shem.

 

[Lord of the Large Pants]

I can only imagine the spergouts and passive aggression wars that happened in Christian intellectual circles within the Roman Empire over what got included and how it was written.

It's not nearly as dramatic as most people think. The church pretty much always agreed on the four Gospels and Paul's letters. Those documents that were disputed in the canonization process were mostly over authorship, not content. Hermas and Clement were considered fine and theologically sound works, but their authors were considered too far divorced from the original events. Hebrews was disputed and the authorship is ultimately unknown, but ended up being included. Revelation is probably the only book that was seriously disputed over content (well, MAYBE Didache), on the grounds of being completely impenetrable. (I personally think Revelation has been considerably more trouble that it's worth, but...)

The canon generally erred on the side of inclusion, with both Hebrews and Revelation being good examples. Books like the non-canonical Gospels were excluded because absolutely NOBODY thought the names on them were genuine, and nobody does today either. They also have little theological value, but that's secondary.

 

[BigMan13]

It's not nearly as dramatic as most people think. The church pretty much always agreed on the four Gospels and Paul's letters. Those documents that were disputed in the canonization process were mostly over authorship, not content.

Was referring to pre-church Christianity (with no church to arbitrate) and later doctrinal disagreements (Arianism, 1054 Schism) more than the post-formation unified idea of what the general texts are; which yeah has stayed generally consistent.

 

[Ravioli Chandler]

The "garden of eden" is located in Sumeria (modern-day southern Iraq).

No, it was in Egypt.

From Genesis 13:10

‪And Lot lifted up his eyes, and beheld all the plain of Jordan, that it was well watered every where, before the LORD destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, even as the garden of the LORD, like the land of Egypt, as thou comest unto Zoar.

‪

The canon generally erred on the side of inclusion, with both Hebrews and Revelation being good examples.

The Syrian church are the exception to the rule. Their canon lacks 2 John, 3 John, 2 Peter, Jude and Revelation.

 

[Overly Serious]

The fact that the Bible is accepted to be written by people and is fuzzy and has translation questions about it and all that, is one of the advantages Christianity has.

Compare it to Islam. One of the fundamental "Pillars" of Islam that a Muslim is required to believe to be a Muslim is that the Koran is the direct words of the angel Gabrial as recorded verbatim by Mohammed. There's no wiggle room in that. If you think Mohammed may have made any part of that up then that's direct contradiction to one of Islam's most fundamental beliefs. It's like a Christian saying "eh, there might not be a God" (admittedly that does kind of describe the Church of England).

If you're a Muslim you're stuck with every dumb bit of the Koran, you've got no way out of it, because either God made a mistake or Mohammed made stuff up. Whilst Christians go "well, that's clearly allegory," and "Well in the Greek it actually meant this" and "Well Matthew and Luke just remembered it differently".

Your Muslim might see this as a weakness of Christianity with some merit, in that occasionally people take it rather far (see Church of England whom nothing embarrasses more than actual faith) but on the whole it's a big plus to Christianity that the bible is a collection of written accounts and acknowledged to be such.

Plus there's only so much in the way of official interpretation. A million and one books and writings on different interpretations, but very little in the way of required interpretation. Again, different to the Hadiths in Islam which will spell out exactly how you're supposed to read some given passage of the Koran. And somewhat the same with the Talmud though that's outside my wheelhouse.