Heathers - A Failure of an 80's reboot

  • 🇵🇦 Nuestro primer dominio localizado está en español en kiwifarms.pa. Our first localized domain is on Spanish on kiwifarms.pa.
  • Want to keep track of this thread?
    Accounts can bookmark posts, watch threads for updates, and jump back to where you stopped reading.
    Create account
Grand Lunar dijo:
Yeah, that and the fact that Veronica and J.D. at least get their comeuppance at the end. Out of curiousity, have you actually watched most of it? And have you seen or know where to find the finale?
Presiona para expandir...
I have seen it, and I don't know where to find the finale.

But I don't recommend it even for ironic viewing pleasure.
 
Truthboi dijo:
I have seen it, and I don't know where to find the finale.

But I don't recommend it even for ironic viewing pleasure.
Presiona para expandir...
Yeah, I know. I do already feel like I wasted too much of my life on the first 9, and had to listen to the musical soundtrack afterwards just to reconcile with how good the story is supposed to be. I guess it's just that since I already wasted hours on them, I do still want to see the full finale for closure. I wouldn't recommend that anyone who was thinking of watching it proceed though.
 
Oh man, I deliberately avoided seeing anything to do with this adaptation because I love the original film so much, but reading some of the plot summaries posted on this page makes me kind of want to watch it just to see how bad it is. I find it especially interesting how hard they managed to fuck up the prom ending that was in the original screenplay (For the record, I don't think the setup was bad, but the clip that was linked here had acting that I wouldn't exactly consider stellar. It's like having a really fancy dish that you work really hard to prepare, except you replace on of the ingredients with literal garbage).

As a side note, I think this illustrates the difference between good and bad adaptations. Heathers: The Musical is a bit different in tone from the original and adjusts characters around that to deliver a show that still feels like it has the same spirit as the original, while this seems to be something shat out by corporate hacks because 80's nostalgia is in vogue right now.
 
Última edición:
Stock Image Photographer dijo:
Oh man, I deliberately avoided seeing anything to do with this adaptation because I love the original film so much, but reading some of the plot summaries posted on this page makes me kind of want to watch it just to see how bad it is. I find it especially interesting how hard they managed to fuck up the prom ending that was in the original screenplay.

As a side note, I think this illustrates the difference between good and bad adaptations. Heathers: The Musical is a bit different in tone from the original and adjusts characters around that to deliver a show that still feels like it has the same spirit as the original, while this seems to be something shat out by corporate hacks because 80's nostalgia is in vogue right now.
Presiona para expandir...
I found a more complete version here:
As I've said, I actually think that this was one of the only scenes that was done decently, though the bar is set pretty low by the rest of it. "Is That All There Is" is a great classic song whose theme fits the scene perfectly.

If the issue is that Veronica and J.D. get locked out and have to spend eternity in isolation, I don't think that you'll find that to be a mistake if you watch the whole thing. Veronica and J.D. are established as some of the most despicable characters ever from like episode 3 on, so them spending eternity in hell is actually really satisfying.
 
Grand Lunar dijo:
Yeah, I know. I do already feel like I wasted too much of my life on the first 9, and had to listen to the musical soundtrack afterwards just to reconcile with how good the story is supposed to be. I guess it's just that since I already wasted hours on them, I do still want to see the full finale for closure. I wouldn't recommend that anyone who was thinking of watching it proceed though.
Presiona para expandir...
Rather just forget this ever happened and just watch the film instead!
 
Grand Lunar dijo:
I found a more complete version here:
https://youtube.com/watch?v=0TUEa_R0bREAs I've said, I actually think that this was one of the only scenes that was done decently, though the bar is set pretty low by the rest of it. "Is That All There Is" is a great classic song whose theme fits the scene perfectly.

If the issue is that Veronica and J.D. get locked out and have to spend eternity in isolation, I don't think that you'll find that to be a mistake if you watch the whole thing. Veronica and J.D. are established as some of the most despicable characters ever from like episode 3 on, so them spending eternity in hell is actually really satisfying.
Presiona para expandir...
Sorry, I edited my original post while you were making this reply to clarify my opinion on it. I've always wanted to see the prom ending actually acted out because I think it would be an interesting alternative to the original ending. I totally believe you that their characterizations have changed to be 100% terrible people, and overall I think they did most things right with that scene by my standards, which is sort of my problem. They went to all the effort of having what could have potentially been a really great scene, and then the acting ruins it for me. Specifically, I just don't buy Veronica's breakdown when she realizes she's locked outside the prom. I muted that part and watched it again, and it was hard to tell if she was supposed to be laughing or crying. I get frustrated when something looks like it has the potential to be great, only to be ruined by something that was easily fixable.
 
Stock Image Photographer dijo:
Sorry, I edited my original post while you were making this reply to clarify my opinion on it. I've always wanted to see the prom ending actually acted out because I think it would be an interesting alternative to the original ending. I totally believe you that their characterizations have changed to be 100% terrible people, and overall I think they did most things right with that scene by my standards, which is sort of my problem. They went to all the effort of having what could have potentially been a really great scene, and then the acting ruins it for me. Specifically, I just don't buy Veronica's breakdown when she realizes she's locked outside the prom. I muted that part and watched it again, and it was hard to tell if she was supposed to be laughing or crying. I get frustrated when something looks like it has the potential to be great, only to be ruined by something that was easily fixable.
Presiona para expandir...
Oh absolutely, Veronica's acting was terrible in not just that scene but in most of the series. JD's actor is even worse, to the point that it's difficult not to laugh every time he tries to be serious. I agree with you a lot that it's disappointing to see something that could have been great turn out shitty, which is kind of why I became fixated on this ending. It works really well given the context of Veronica and JD both being 100% awful, and would have been a great payoff with a better set up. It's also the best cultural statement that they could make about mass shooters, telling people who romanticize their pain or buy into narratives of them being tragic figures that they need to stop, as well as circumventing their attempts to avoid consequences through suicide. I wouldn't have been opposed to a remake that makes Veronica and JD complete monsters and commits to that as part of the message, but since what we got was so inconsistent and wavered on Veronica's true characterization quite a bit, it still fell flat. And the 8 hours or so it takes to get there are just so unwatchable, that it could never be worth it for anything other than so-bad-it's-good value.
 
Grand Lunar dijo:
Veronica and J.D. are established as some of the most despicable characters ever from like episode 3 on, so them spending eternity in hell is actually really satisfying.
Presiona para expandir...

That's terrible. The dramatic tension of the original was in actually making the characters somewhat likable, so that it was actually a slap in the face when they were revealed actually to be terrible, with only Veronica getting a very imperfect redemption if that. If you just start out with them irredeemably horrible, why are you just watching horrible people for no reason?

To do an irredeemably terrible character in a compelling way takes a certain degree of subtlety because otherwise you're just fuck this guy, who cares?
 
AnOminous dijo:
That's terrible. The dramatic tension of the original was in actually making the characters somewhat likable, so that it was actually a slap in the face when they were revealed actually to be terrible, with only Veronica getting a very imperfect redemption if that. If you just start out with them irredeemably horrible, why are you just watching horrible people for no reason?

To do an irredeemably terrible character in a compelling way takes a certain degree of subtlety because otherwise you're just fuck this guy, who cares?
Presiona para expandir...
Yeah, that's kind of what I was getting at when I said that it was too inconsistent with it's portrayals. Veronica and JD are revealed to be monsters who are totally okay with killing innocents early on, with JD killing Ram just because he's jealous and Veronica liking it. Yet, many episodes later they try to go back on this and have Veronica and JD target their perverted teacher under the pretense of "protecting others." It just doesn't make any sense. Also, the show treats Veronica turning the tables on JD and being confirmed to have already killed someone years ago in episode 5 as if it's supposed to be a surprise revelation, despite the fact that we had already seen her delight in the murder of an innocent person just 2 episodes before. The entire structure of the show is so broken that it really has to be seen to be believed.
 
Grand Lunar dijo:
It works really well given the context of Veronica and JD both being 100% awful, and would have been a great payoff with a better set up. It's also the best cultural statement that they could make about mass shooters, telling people who romanticize their pain or buy into narratives of them being tragic figures that they need to stop, as well as circumventing their attempts to avoid consequences through suicide. I wouldn't have been opposed to a remake that makes Veronica and JD complete monsters and commits to that as part of the message, but since what we got was so inconsistent and wavered on Veronica's true characterization quite a bit, it still fell flat. And the 8 hours or so it takes to get there are just so unwatchable, that it could never be worth it for anything other than so-bad-it's-good value.
Presiona para expandir...
I hate to say it, but it almost seems like the message about not romanticizing mass shooters may not have been intentional on the creator's part, if only because, as you say, the final product was so inconsistent. If it was intentional then it sucks that the writers didn't build that theme steadily and regularly throughout the episodes.
AnOminous dijo:
To do an irredeemably terrible character in a compelling way takes a certain degree of subtlety because otherwise you're just fuck this guy, who cares?
Presiona para expandir...
To add to this, it also takes a lot of skill to write a character that you still care about even after they've done terrible things. That the original Heathers makes you feel like Veronica is still worth caring about even though she's been complicit in a lot of killing really shows that the creators knew what they were doing.
 
Última edición:
Stock Image Photographer dijo:
I hate to say it, but it almost seems like the message about not romanticizing mass shooters may not have been intentional on the creator's part, if only because, as you say, the final product was so inconsistent.
Presiona para expandir...

Oh, no, it's clearly intentional - just that, as with nearly all the satire, it's done poorly so falls flat.

They have a 'school shooter drill' in which they have a random student point out they're essentially showing any potential school killer the best way to succeed - as JD is doing - and then later point out that they're doing a shitty job of not glamorising the fame that killing other kids. But it's the show not being confident in its satire or presentation and whacking you with a bat to make sure you 'get it'.

It's even worse in the finale. Veronica, who apparently hates JD now, finds out about his master plan after JD has killed Kurt (for accidentally being in the wrong place at the wrong time) and Heather Duke (who figured out he killed Kurt, rather than Kurt suiciding). He claims it's making a big statement about violence in America with faking it as a mass suicide, she points out he's killing kids.
But as she goes to stop it, she and Heather Chandler have a confrontation where Heather tells her that she's essentially infected all the students at the school with herself, and that they will always remember her for generations to come. And rather than, say, point out that it's narcissistic bullshit of someone who can't imagine people moving on from high school, Veronica seems to believe this and goes back to help JD.

Then they find out that there's been a school shooting at another prom, so JD decides to stop his plan because his message will be spoiled by association. Which is actually a fair point, considering he's a psycho but one with a stated aim. But Veronica decides this makes him a fake and wants the explosion to go ahead. They fight, she shoots him, he shoots her, she shoots him more seriously, and they die together, with Veronica starting the bomb up again as a final act.

And then the stupidest part - one of the nerds saw all this, tries to tell the teachers, but they're too busy throwing Heather Chandler out of the prom for having too short a skirt so they just claim he's on drugs and ignore him. So the teachers and Heather Chandler are the only people outside the building (not even the nerd, he goes back in for some reason) when the school explodes. And then the teachers literally ask themselves whether there was more they could have done, and the coach says maybe they should have listened to the kids more - even if just specifically that one kid who tried to warn them.... and then they shrug and go get a drink. It was painfully, absurdly clunky, a final 'ADULTS ARE TERRIBLE LISTEN TO YOUR KIDS DO YOU GET IT' that, sadly, didn't feel particularly out of place with the level of quality the show had.

Other things: Betty Finn comes back from military school to fuck up JD, but gets distracted by Heather Chandler thinking she looks cool and so forgets about it immediately to be cool again. Heather Chandler tries to take advantage of being the sole survivor to launch a 'stop mass suicide' movement, but because Veronica uploaded the fake suicide video, Heather gets ignored because she's only 'friend of Veronica Sawyer, who inspired this event'. Kurt and Heather Duke end up dancing together in the post-mortem prom, which is unfair to Kurt who was treated like absolute dogshit throughout the entire show and Heather didn't deserve his kindness - or any happiness, for that matter. There's a bit in episode eight where the two Heathers find out Veronica killed the girl a few years back, but they just shrug it off and all become friends again. Veronica's character is really a mess, and her and JD are the least interesting part of the show - and among the weakest performers, which doesn't help sell any of the bullshit.

But there is at least one point where Heather Chandler and JD have a confrontation, where she admits that all her SJW posturing is bullshit but that JD's nihilistic psycho routine is genuine. So I don't think it was written so much to have SJW appeal as to include them in the satire. Unfortunately, the show wasn't good enough or consistent enough to have much of it work. I do still like that idea of the bullying being done through forced social justice, and the show does have the Heathers use that sort of thing occasionally, but the show was too interested in giving them funny, cruel lines and trying to be high camp than actually being, again, consistent. And not just in tone, but in characters as well. And Veronica suffers the most in this regard, as her character is completely all over the place. Movie Veronica is not only a lot more sympathetic, but makes sense as a person. TV Veronica goes between finding Ram kind of sweet, and finding his murder massively romantic on JD's part in less than half an hour. It's not just that she's psycho, it's that she isn't an actual person, just whatever plot drive the writers need from her in that scene.
 
Next Task dijo:
Oh, no, it's clearly intentional - just that, as with nearly all the satire, it's done poorly so falls flat.

They have a 'school shooter drill' in which they have a random student point out they're essentially showing any potential school killer the best way to succeed - as JD is doing - and then later point out that they're doing a shitty job of not glamorising the fame that killing other kids. But it's the show not being confident in its satire or presentation and whacking you with a bat to make sure you 'get it'.

It's even worse in the finale. Veronica, who apparently hates JD now, finds out about his master plan after JD has killed Kurt (for accidentally being in the wrong place at the wrong time) and Heather Duke (who figured out he killed Kurt, rather than Kurt suiciding). He claims it's making a big statement about violence in America with faking it as a mass suicide, she points out he's killing kids.
But as she goes to stop it, she and Heather Chandler have a confrontation where Heather tells her that she's essentially infected all the students at the school with herself, and that they will always remember her for generations to come. And rather than, say, point out that it's narcissistic bullshit of someone who can't imagine people moving on from high school, Veronica seems to believe this and goes back to help JD.

Then they find out that there's been a school shooting at another prom, so JD decides to stop his plan because his message will be spoiled by association. Which is actually a fair point, considering he's a psycho but one with a stated aim. But Veronica decides this makes him a fake and wants the explosion to go ahead. They fight, she shoots him, he shoots her, she shoots him more seriously, and they die together, with Veronica starting the bomb up again as a final act.

And then the stupidest part - one of the nerds saw all this, tries to tell the teachers, but they're too busy throwing Heather Chandler out of the prom for having too short a skirt so they just claim he's on drugs and ignore him. So the teachers and Heather Chandler are the only people outside the building (not even the nerd, he goes back in for some reason) when the school explodes. And then the teachers literally ask themselves whether there was more they could have done, and the coach says maybe they should have listened to the kids more - even if just specifically that one kid who tried to warn them.... and then they shrug and go get a drink. It was painfully, absurdly clunky, a final 'ADULTS ARE TERRIBLE LISTEN TO YOUR KIDS DO YOU GET IT' that, sadly, didn't feel particularly out of place with the level of quality the show had.

Other things: Betty Finn comes back from military school to fuck up JD, but gets distracted by Heather Chandler thinking she looks cool and so forgets about it immediately to be cool again. Heather Chandler tries to take advantage of being the sole survivor to launch a 'stop mass suicide' movement, but because Veronica uploaded the fake suicide video, Heather gets ignored because she's only 'friend of Veronica Sawyer, who inspired this event'. Kurt and Heather Duke end up dancing together in the post-mortem prom, which is unfair to Kurt who was treated like absolute dogshit throughout the entire show and Heather didn't deserve his kindness - or any happiness, for that matter. There's a bit in episode eight where the two Heathers find out Veronica killed the girl a few years back, but they just shrug it off and all become friends again. Veronica's character is really a mess, and her and JD are the least interesting part of the show - and among the weakest performers, which doesn't help sell any of the bullshit.

But there is at least one point where Heather Chandler and JD have a confrontation, where she admits that all her SJW posturing is bullshit but that JD's nihilistic psycho routine is genuine. So I don't think it was written so much to have SJW appeal as to include them in the satire. Unfortunately, the show wasn't good enough or consistent enough to have much of it work. I do still like that idea of the bullying being done through forced social justice, and the show does have the Heathers use that sort of thing occasionally, but the show was too interested in giving them funny, cruel lines and trying to be high camp than actually being, again, consistent. And not just in tone, but in characters as well. And Veronica suffers the most in this regard, as her character is completely all over the place. Movie Veronica is not only a lot more sympathetic, but makes sense as a person. TV Veronica goes between finding Ram kind of sweet, and finding his murder massively romantic on JD's part in less than half an hour. It's not just that she's psycho, it's that she isn't an actual person, just whatever plot drive the writers need from her in that scene.
Presiona para expandir...
That's a pretty accurate take. May I ask where you found the finale? Everything I've said about it has come from clips and plot summaries.
 
Next Task dijo:
Oh, no, it's clearly intentional - just that, as with nearly all the satire, it's done poorly so falls flat.

They have a 'school shooter drill' in which they have a random student point out they're essentially showing any potential school killer the best way to succeed - as JD is doing - and then later point out that they're doing a shitty job of not glamorising the fame that killing other kids. But it's the show not being confident in its satire or presentation and whacking you with a bat to make sure you 'get it'.

It's even worse in the finale. Veronica, who apparently hates JD now, finds out about his master plan after JD has killed Kurt (for accidentally being in the wrong place at the wrong time) and Heather Duke (who figured out he killed Kurt, rather than Kurt suiciding). He claims it's making a big statement about violence in America with faking it as a mass suicide, she points out he's killing kids.
But as she goes to stop it, she and Heather Chandler have a confrontation where Heather tells her that she's essentially infected all the students at the school with herself, and that they will always remember her for generations to come. And rather than, say, point out that it's narcissistic bullshit of someone who can't imagine people moving on from high school, Veronica seems to believe this and goes back to help JD.

Then they find out that there's been a school shooting at another prom, so JD decides to stop his plan because his message will be spoiled by association. Which is actually a fair point, considering he's a psycho but one with a stated aim. But Veronica decides this makes him a fake and wants the explosion to go ahead. They fight, she shoots him, he shoots her, she shoots him more seriously, and they die together, with Veronica starting the bomb up again as a final act.

And then the stupidest part - one of the nerds saw all this, tries to tell the teachers, but they're too busy throwing Heather Chandler out of the prom for having too short a skirt so they just claim he's on drugs and ignore him. So the teachers and Heather Chandler are the only people outside the building (not even the nerd, he goes back in for some reason) when the school explodes. And then the teachers literally ask themselves whether there was more they could have done, and the coach says maybe they should have listened to the kids more - even if just specifically that one kid who tried to warn them.... and then they shrug and go get a drink. It was painfully, absurdly clunky, a final 'ADULTS ARE TERRIBLE LISTEN TO YOUR KIDS DO YOU GET IT' that, sadly, didn't feel particularly out of place with the level of quality the show had.

Other things: Betty Finn comes back from military school to fuck up JD, but gets distracted by Heather Chandler thinking she looks cool and so forgets about it immediately to be cool again. Heather Chandler tries to take advantage of being the sole survivor to launch a 'stop mass suicide' movement, but because Veronica uploaded the fake suicide video, Heather gets ignored because she's only 'friend of Veronica Sawyer, who inspired this event'. Kurt and Heather Duke end up dancing together in the post-mortem prom, which is unfair to Kurt who was treated like absolute dogshit throughout the entire show and Heather didn't deserve his kindness - or any happiness, for that matter. There's a bit in episode eight where the two Heathers find out Veronica killed the girl a few years back, but they just shrug it off and all become friends again. Veronica's character is really a mess, and her and JD are the least interesting part of the show - and among the weakest performers, which doesn't help sell any of the bullshit.

But there is at least one point where Heather Chandler and JD have a confrontation, where she admits that all her SJW posturing is bullshit but that JD's nihilistic psycho routine is genuine. So I don't think it was written so much to have SJW appeal as to include them in the satire. Unfortunately, the show wasn't good enough or consistent enough to have much of it work. I do still like that idea of the bullying being done through forced social justice, and the show does have the Heathers use that sort of thing occasionally, but the show was too interested in giving them funny, cruel lines and trying to be high camp than actually being, again, consistent. And not just in tone, but in characters as well. And Veronica suffers the most in this regard, as her character is completely all over the place. Movie Veronica is not only a lot more sympathetic, but makes sense as a person. TV Veronica goes between finding Ram kind of sweet, and finding his murder massively romantic on JD's part in less than half an hour. It's not just that she's psycho, it's that she isn't an actual person, just whatever plot drive the writers need from her in that scene.
Presiona para expandir...
The fuck is wrong with the writers, like seriously wtf
 
Next Task dijo:
But there is at least one point where Heather Chandler and JD have a confrontation, where she admits that all her SJW posturing is bullshit but that JD's nihilistic psycho routine is genuine. So I don't think it was written so much to have SJW appeal as to include them in the satire. Unfortunately, the show wasn't good enough or consistent enough to have much of it work. I do still like that idea of the bullying being done through forced social justice, and the show does have the Heathers use that sort of thing occasionally, but the show was too interested in giving them funny, cruel lines and trying to be high camp than actually being, again, consistent.
Presiona para expandir...
The other thing is that there's already been media that's tackled the subject of how the classic 80s high school archetypes and cliques, including the hierarchy of popularity, aren't really a thing in modern high schools anymore, and much better to boot. The 21 Jump Street remake covered these same points in the span of a ten minute scene.
 
Debes iniciar sesión o registrarte para responder aquí.
Atrás
Top Abajo