Game of Thrones Thread

[Lemmingwise]

I understand Daenerys always had the potential to go apeshit and be the ultimate villain of the story. The problem, as so many people are pointing out, is the execution. A lot of the things on your list are mere rhetoric: who cares if she threatens to burn cities to the ground if she never actually did it? The first season example is particularly unconvincing: "the Stallion Who Mounts the World" was a pure Khal Drogo idea, and as time went on, Dany seemed to understand that Drogo was an impulsive hothead who never would have made a decent ruler, even if she still cherished his memory. The people she actually kills were, at least arguably, guilty of terrible crimes themselves. Still, these examples do lay the groundwork for the possibility of her going overboard someday. The problem is the counterexamples were always presented much more thoroughly as more indicative of her character: the trial for her ex-slave advisor whose execution caused a riot, locking up her dragons for the death of a single shepherd girl, the warm moments between her and Barristan Selmy when he reminisces about what a kindly man Rhaegar was (that last clearly reflected when Jon mentions he does not enjoy killing -- you can practically see her fall for him in that moment).

I think Martin's goal -- and I haven't read the books, so grain of salt and all -- was to depict the creation of a fantasy villain from relatively innocent beginnings to a tragic, crushing fall from grace. That's super interesting and could have been heartbreaking if done correctly. But the show put so much focus on Daenerys's sympathetic side, and cast her actions in such a righteous light (or at least in a gray area), that the decision to indiscriminately massacre the largest city in Westeros (it's fucking burnt flat! the death toll might well be in the hundreds of thousands) really does seem against her character -- as if she's learned nothing from what she's gone through in the last eight seasons. Which, really, seems to be the problem with most of the characters in the final act. Everyone is regressing to our initial impression of them.

What's missing, I think, is a scene or preferably a series of scenes where Dany reflects on her attempts to be a just ruler and how it never really worked out -- all she got was revolution and civil unrest, slowly coming to dismiss the successes she had and rationalizing that even those would never happen in Westeros because the people didn't accept her. The arc of her story after finally arriving in Westeros was just fuckup after fuckup, but every bit of it seemed to be due to the bad advice of her councilors rather than the methods she employed in Essos not working. It could have become something absolutely chilling if she drew the conclusion that slaves are worth saving but free people are not, since in their freedom they make the wrong choices (i.e., not loving Daenerys Targaryen).

All of this needed more episodes than they allotted. That'll be the ultimate conclusion, most likely: Game of Thrones failed because they tried to wrap it up too soon and too hastily.

Although I agree with the general gist of your post, it's not at all true that my post was mere rhetoric; it is daenerys who convinces khal drogo to set on a plan to conquer westeros; that's not a khal drogo idea: it's hers. And he isn't convinced until the failed assassination attempt. The idea that she is somehow above him and sees him as an impulsive hothead is not really apparent either.

Slavery is not a terrible crime in Essos (at least slaver's bay), it's not even a crime at all and for her to impose it as such, is a radical idea. It goes against the whole social order. It is far more radical than burning the Tarly's because they refuse to bend the knee; killing houses is not that uncommon in the world of game of thrones. Opposing slavery is normal in Braavos and westeros (it's what got Jorah banished), but not in slaver's bay.

It's as almost as radical as enacting gay marriage in saudi arabia, or abolishing it in the west.

Many people saw a just revenge from Daenerys when she suddenly spoke valyrian and burned the slave masters; I saw people who should not have tried to trade with her and put her to the death. Similar with Qarth, where the social order was upset by her arrival. She broke her trade agreement when she had been received as a guest. Rudely perhaps, but there is some comparison to the red wedding even there.

After that I found it hard to like her. What if Missandei or the unsullied had chosen to not follow her, when they were given the choice? What if the dothraki hadn't? We don't really see people defecting from her. In a conversation between Jon and Missandei, she is adament that she would receive a ship and be allowed to leave. But we don't really know if that is true.

Now that I think about it, there's an interesting parallel between Robb Stark and Daenerys Stormborn. After all, his campaign truly went into the shitter after one of his followers, the karstarks, killed an enemy that was imprisoned and he executed the follower for it, dealing irreparable damage to his forces. Daenerys too executed one of the slaves, who killed a master who was already caught and lost the support of the lowerclass:

I agree that she is highlighted in a sympathetic light and the sentimental element in her music themes are part of that; but I also think that's the women are wonderful effect, where in general people are more forgiving of what women do and more likely to root for them.

As for the earlier point about all the people being wrong about her; Barristan Selmy was barely there long enough to really form a strong opinion on her, Jorah was already someone with poor life judgement (slaving in westeros for his wife; falling in love with the person he's supposed to spy on; going through valyria). Jorah's devotion, though he says it's because she's good.

The part that made sure that Daenerys could never really be good is her ambition; an ambition similar to Tywin, Littlefinger and Margeary (who had a part in setting up Renly against Stannis, against the line of succession).

The elements of Daenerys ambitious side were always there, not in the least in her dealings in the east. Another example is when she arrogantly took the gifts offered to her in trade for her leaving for westeros and then armed their slaves and used them to cause insurrection. I know that in modernity people view these things as noble, particularly for its comparison to Lincoln and abolishing of slavery, but I don't believe that abolishing slavery is either her or Lincoln's motive: if you are ambitious you have to find someone disaffected to be your foot soldier. The change of social order is a tool more than a goal. In the end her goal was always to "break the wheel", which is essentially just her usurpations to become the person that divine authority derives from.

Book Dany is a thirsty 16 year old who fell in love with a pirate with a neon blue beard. It makes a lot more sense when she goes ham on people because that's what you'd expect from a hormonal 16 year old who learned everything she knows about how to rule from her brother Viserys.

Spoiler

Sexy, sexy Daario.
Ver archivo adjunto 759627

How the hell do they make blue hair and gold-tipped mustache look almost alright? Artists man, fucking magicians.

 

[Mola Ram]

Although I agree with the general gist of your post, it's not at all true that my post was mere rhetoric; it is daenerys who convinces khal drogo to set on a plan to conquer westeros; that's not a khal drogo idea: it's hers. And he isn't convinced until the failed assassination attempt. The idea that she is somehow above him and sees him as an impulsive hothead is not really apparent either.

Slavery is not a terrible crime in Essos (at least slaver's bay), it's not even a crime at all and for her to impose it as such, is a radical idea. It goes against the whole social order. It is far more radical than burning the Tarly's because they refuse to bend the knee; killing houses is not that uncommon in the world of game of thrones. Opposing slavery is normal in Braavos and westeros (it's what got Jorah banished), but not in slaver's bay.

It's as almost as radical as enacting gay marriage in saudi arabia, or abolishing it in the west.

Many people saw a just revenge from Daenerys when she suddenly spoke valyrian and burned the slave masters; I saw people who should not have tried to trade with her and put her to the death. Similar with Qarth, where the social order was upset by her arrival. She broke her trade agreement when she had been received as a guest. Rudely perhaps, but there is some comparison to the red wedding even there.

After that I found it hard to like her. What if Missandei or the unsullied had chosen to not follow her, when they were given the choice? What if the dothraki hadn't? We don't really see people defecting from her. In a conversation between Jon and Missandei, she is adament that she would receive a ship and be allowed to leave. But we don't really know if that is true.

Now that I think about it, there's an interesting parallel between Robb Stark and Daenerys Stormborn. After all, his campaign truly went into the shitter after one of his followers, the karstarks, killed an enemy that was imprisoned and he executed the follower for it, dealing irreparable damage to his forces. Daenerys too executed one of the slaves, who killed a master who was already caught and lost the support of the lowerclass:

https://youtube.com/watch?v=iScHpvPCGfc
I agree that she is highlighted in a sympathetic light and the sentimental element in her music themes are part of that; but I also think that's the women are wonderful effect, where in general people are more forgiving of what women do and more likely to root for them.

As for the earlier point about all the people being wrong about her; Barristan Selmy was barely there long enough to really form a strong opinion on her, Jorah was already someone with poor life judgement (slaving in westeros for his wife; falling in love with the person he's supposed to spy on; going through valyria). Jorah's devotion, though he says it's because she's good.

The part that made sure that Daenerys could never really be good is her ambition; an ambition similar to Tywin, Littlefinger and Margeary (who had a part in setting up Renly against Stannis, against the line of succession).

The elements of Daenerys ambitious side were always there, not in the least in her dealings in the east. Another example is when she arrogantly took the gifts offered to her in trade for her leaving for westeros and then armed their slaves and used them to cause insurrection. I know that in modernity people view these things as noble, particularly for its comparison to Lincoln and abolishing of slavery, but I don't believe that abolishing slavery is either her or Lincoln's motive: if you are ambitious you have to find someone disaffected to be your foot soldier. The change of social order is a tool more than a goal. In the end her goal was always to "break the wheel", which is essentially just her usurpations to become the person that divine authority derives from.

Well, there's certainly a lot to debate. I don't like the idea that I basically fell prey to emotional manipulation provided by music and camera angles, but I can't dismiss it, either. I guess my most fundamental problem is that I really can't accept the leap from "morally ambiguous ruthlessness" to "wholesale slaughter of innocent civilians after the end of hostilities" as it's depicted in the show.

It's also just kind of odd to realize that everyone who distrusted her was 100% right in the end, despite most of her enemies being depicted as incompetents, tyrants, opportunistic scumbags, and leering perverts, from the rulers of Qarth to the Masters all the way back to fat, cuckolded, drunk, dead Robert Baratheon himself. Goddammit, Ned, why didn't you just let him slit her throat?

 

[Wallace]

Oooh, awkward.

Daenerys “Stormborn” Targaryen has been my favorite from the first moment she walked through fire.
...
Dany believes fiercely in her right to rule, but she despises what ruling means in the world she’s grown up in. She doesn’t want to be a slave owner or a dictator — and she definitely doesn’t want to become her murderous father.

 

[God of Nothing]

Book Dany is a thirsty 16 year old who fell in love with a pirate with a neon blue beard. It makes a lot more sense when she goes ham on people because that's what you'd expect from a hormonal 16 year old who learned everything she knows about how to rule from her brother Viserys.

Spoiler

Sexy, sexy Daario.
Ver archivo adjunto 759627

Tyroshi trash cannot compare to Lyseni ass.

Anyone else feel like they're going to milk the GoT setting after they're done ruining the main story? Seems like the way to go. Gonna be shit unless they just adapt Martin's side novels no one gives a fuck about.

 

[Mola Ram]

Oooh, awkward.

Hack politicians trying to attach themselves to pop culture phenomena having it bite them in the ass is the second best thing about this season, besides the memes.

 

[Lemmingwise]

Despite most of her enemies being depicted as incompetents, tyrants, opportunistic scumbags, and leering perverts, from the rulers of Qarth to the Masters all the way back to fat, cuckolded, drunk, dead Robert Baratheon himself.

I never considered Robert a cuckold, considering he had more children than his wife, but I suppose there's some truth to it.

But yeah, there's no doubt that the show has turned her into a cartoon villain at the drop of a coin, but that's because all characterization has become cartoon versions. It's because a lot of tell and very little show. Why exactly is Tyrion afraid of Daenerys? We don't know. Why does he side with her over the spider? We don't know.

But that Daenerys doesn't care for law or justness was proven when she burned all the khal's alive. That she doesn't really care for the common people was proven when she executed the slave that she herself had armed against the masters. She cares about as much as a modern limousine liberal cares about the environment, taking private jets to environment fundraising events, or the way a modern neoconservative tries to earn brownie points by saying: look I support this gay Milo, I'm a good guy.

Her overriding goal has always been to sit on the throne and to break the current social order; more so than improve the world for others. She has already seen her failures at ruling and rather than think: Maybe I should do something else in my life, she is going to keep trying at playing god with other's lives until it works out.

 

[God of Nothing]

Oooh, awkward.

If only reality itself would've bended over backwards to obey Yaaas Qweeen Daenerys' idealism. Destroying social order, committing war crimes, and alienating anyone who knew how to use power should've definitely led to a better world. Of course, reality decided to hit little miss sheltered-since-the-day-she-was-born with the force of ten thousand Chad Night King ice javelins.

She thought she was the dragon conqueror reborn but she was really a snowflake.

 

[Mola Ram]

Her overriding goal has always been to sit on the throne and to break the current social order; more so than improve the world for others. She has already seen her failures at ruling and rather than think: Maybe I should do something else in my life, she is going to keep trying at playing god with other's lives until it works out.

Here's something that never quite occurred to me, as I reflect on your (very interesting) points: she made that famous speech about "breaking the wheel," and yet the one time anyone ever tried to broach the topic of what might be built in its place -- Tyrion approaching her after the attack on the Lannister forces -- she angrily shut him down and insinuated he was thinking about treason.

 

[God of Nothing]

Here's something that never quite occurred to me, as I reflect on your (very interesting) points: she made that famous speech about "breaking the wheel," and yet the one time anyone ever tried to broach the topic of what might be built in its place -- Tyrion approaching her after the attack on the Lannister forces -- she angrily shut him down and insinuated he was thinking about treason.

The classical SJW way of thinking. Somehow, things will be fine if they wreck everything because JUSTICE! Questioning the results of their actions is the equivalent of a personal attack on them. Any criticism or questioning is racism, sexism, hate speech, oppression, and treason.

 

[iRON-mAn]

Slavery is not a terrible crime in Essos (at least slaver's bay), it's not even a crime at all and for her to impose it as such, is a radical idea. It goes against the whole social order. It is far more radical than burning the Tarly's because they refuse to bend the knee; killing houses is not that uncommon in the world of game of thrones. Opposing slavery is normal in Braavos and westeros (it's what got Jorah banished), but not in slaver's bay.

Uh, Braavos has fought numerous wars against it's neighbors opposing slavery, the last one being within 70 years of the events of the first book. Daenerys was simply the first person to do it that far East.

 

[SteelPlatedHeart]

 

[Ginger Piglet]

cuntstruck

Possibly the best word in the English language. Needs to be used more often.

Here's something that never quite occurred to me, as I reflect on your (very interesting) points: she made that famous speech about "breaking the wheel," and yet the one time anyone ever tried to broach the topic of what might be built in its place -- Tyrion approaching her after the attack on the Lannister forces -- she angrily shut him down and insinuated he was thinking about treason.

Yet despite, in retrospect, foreshadowing that she'll lose it at some point, it's all for nothing because she went nuts all at once.

I agree with the person earlier in the thread who said a final series where she's Queen and does her well-intentioned extremist routine but slowly gets more and more loopy and paranoid and sees her advisors as trying to betray her when they are, in fact, telling her that she's making a mistake, as is their duty, and eventually they plot to depose her for real because her paranoia becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. That would have been a good post-Night King run of episodes. But no. Because we have to SUBVERT EXPECTATIONS, she wigs out at the earliest available opportunity. Better still, that series could have a time skip of, say, a year between each episode, say, each one is set on her nth jubilee as Queen of Westeros to give it a nice theme and structure.

 

[Lemmingwise]

Uh, Braavos has fought numerous wars against it's neighbors opposing slavery, the last one being within 70 years of the events of the first book. Daenerys was simply the first person to do it that far East.

That's why I said that opposing slavery is normal in Braavos..... Though Braavos seems culturally as far from slaver's bay as Antwerp from Constantinople.

 

[verissimus]

And now for your daily dose of Game of Thrones memes

r/freefolk - They've murdered my boy...

231 votes and 7 comments so far on Reddit

www.reddit.com

r/freefolk - What about Jamie? After the ruined a perfect character arc

5 votes and 3 comments so far on Reddit

www.reddit.com

r/freefolk - "The blood of my enemies, not the blood of innocents"

10 votes and 5 comments so far on Reddit

www.reddit.com

Dafuq...looks like he literally stepped out of the set of a Game of Thrones

r/freefolk - Reminder that Tywin has now sworn allegiance to Godzilla.

6 votes and 3 comments so far on Reddit

www.reddit.com

This one actually is kind of ironic

r/freefolk - some more foreshadowing

5 votes and 3 comments so far on Reddit

www.reddit.com

...they seriously should have had her take King's Landing in season 7.

 

[Emperor Julian]

it's occured to me Dany really would have been better off storming kings landing upon arrival on westeros in season 7. Whoever told her not to blitz the red keep for humanitarian reasons is a fucking idiot. The war could have been concluded in about 30-60 minutes without any allied and minimum civilian and enemy casualties.

 

[Lemmingwise]

Here's something that never quite occurred to me, as I reflect on your (very interesting) points: she made that famous speech about "breaking the wheel," and yet the one time anyone ever tried to broach the topic of what might be built in its place -- Tyrion approaching her after the attack on the Lannister forces -- she angrily shut him down and insinuated he was thinking about treason.

Good catch!

Thinking about it... what if that other dragon, Reagan or something, had died during the siege of king landing? What if he was shot after the bell had rung? Giving Dany at least some reason to burn down the city maniacally.

On the plus side, it would make her look like she cared about here dragons dying for once.

it's occured to me Dany really would have been better off storming kings landing upon arrival on westeros in season 7. Whoever told her not to storm the red keep for humanitarian reasons is a fucking idiot. The war could have been concluded in about 30-60 minutes without any allied and minimum civilian and enemy casualties.

Yeah, no shit. Don't give them time to build 50 more scorpions and storm them when they just have 1 instead. Although back then we thought the night king was a dangerous and intelligent force of nature, not a comicbook villain with no good lieutenants keeping him safe from anime ninjas.

 

[Starscreams Cape]

The whole Stannis storyline after Blackwater feels like this weird digression that ultimately goes nowhere. He saves the Night's Watch and crushes the Wildling invasion, but at no point did he ever seem like a serious contender for the endgame. The dreary existence he led from his defeat at King's Landing really only seemed to be there to make sure Melisandre was there at the right moment to resurrect Jon.

His arc in the books is much more complex and heroic. He gets some of the best and most profound scenes. In book 2 (Catelyn chapter) , talking about the peach his traitorous brother offered him at their parlay. In book 3 (Davos chapter), when he's agonizing over what to do with Robert's bastard - sacrifice him and save millions or let him go as Davos wants and eventually does. He starts to show flexibility when instead of punishing Davos for it he listens to his plea for the Night's Watch, something akin to "a king that won't protect his people is king at all". His battlefield prowess is finally shown when he crushes the wildlings.

To think what the show did to this character is so unbelievably galling. He may not have ever had a chance to win the throne, but in the books as of now he's still one of the few that SHOULD win it.

Without a doubt in my mind the Stannis in the books is the most Shakespearian character.

 

[Kyria the Great]

His arc in the books is much more complex and heroic. He gets some of the best and most profound scenes. In book 2 (Catelyn chapter) , talking about the peach his traitorous brother offered him at their parlay. In book 3 (Davos chapter), when he's agonizing over what to do with Robert's bastard - sacrifice him and save millions or let him go as Davos wants and eventually does. He starts to show flexibility when instead of punishing Davos for it he listens to his plea for the Night's Watch, something akin to "a king that won't protect his people is king at all". His battlefield prowess is finally shown when he crushes the wildlings.

To think what the show did to this character is so unbelievably galling. He may not have ever had a chance to win the throne, but in the books as of now he's still one of the few that SHOULD win it.

No, we need to show characters that were heroic and had true integrity turn Murder Stupid at the last minute because our security around the camp had more Holes than Nazi spying command.

 

[Krokodil Overdose]

What makes them so exceptional, compared to say, the janissaries in Turkey, which was an army made up off captured boys (slaves) from christian lands, (although they weren't made eunuchs like the harem guards, but instead under strict vow of celibacy).

Castration is kind of a big deal; it screws up T production which in turn messes up muscle development, aggression, and bone development- all things you really, really need in professional soldiers, especially heavy infantry. Add to that the sanitation issues from frequent urinary incontinence, and you're hamstringing your forces for no good reason. You're not quite making an army of Jazz Jennings, but you're in the right (lack of) ballpark. Historically, there have been eunuchs in the military, but as commanders and tacticians (Zhang He was purportedly one) not the guys who do the heavy lifting.

And historically, slave soldiers have a nasty habit of figuring out that as the guys with the weapons and training, they can be the ones giving orders as opposed to taking them. The Janissaries had to be suppressed/appeased multiple times, and the Mamluks just straight up took over. And the Romans' institutional paranoia about arming slaves came from their encounter with this fella called Sparticus.

Even the requirement of killing part is somewhat comparable to both spartan (who had to kill a helot, which were the majority of their population) and native american requirements (I think it was for jaguar warriors, who had to capture someone alive from one of the lesser tribes without being caught).

With the Spartans, too, you had to not get caught; those trials were essentially a prac test for what they'd learned. With the Unsullied, according to the wiki, they need to buy a slave baby then kill it in front of it's mother (careful you don't cut yourself on all that edge, George) and compensate the owner for the loss (which doesn't even make sense, because if they bought it they would be the owner, that's how buying things works.) This isn't comparable because it's not a challenge the way those other trials are.

 

[Starscreams Cape]

No, we need to show characters that were heroic and had true integrity turn Murder Stupid at the last minute because our security around the camp had more Holes than Nazi spying command.

And it also gave Brienne something to do because after her interactions with Jamie she was pretty much useless as a main character.

But hey, SLAYYYYY KWEEEEN! You go girl, kill that mortally wounded man sitting next to a tree.