Feminism

[NobleGreyHorse]

Women still make something like 60-70 cents for every dollar a man makes in the US for the same shit. Often they're herded into traditionally female occupations (nursing, child care, teaching) which, you guessed it, pay less than occupations deemed traditionally male (and I don't even mean the ones that depend on physical capability). Until that changes, privilege is a thing. Sorry.

 

[BT 075]

Women still make something like 60-70 cents for every dollar a man makes in the US for the same shit. Often they're herded into traditionally female occupations (nursing, child care, teaching) which, you guessed it, pay less than occupations deemed traditionally male (and I don't even mean the ones that depend on physical capability). Until that changes, privilege is a thing. Sorry.

These traditional female occupations typically don't have many guys lining up for them. Take child care for example, the reason you see more women in that profession is simply because women apply for those jobs more often, and men don't. They aren't herded into it, privilege and the patriarchy don't drive these women into taking care of kids, nursing or teaching.

Now as for the payment thing... are these averages or are we talking about the same hours, the same productivity, risks and the same exact job? Otherwise, again, I don't really thing this whole "privilege" BS has anything to do with it. Tumblr has succesfully given me an aversion against words like privilege and patriarchy anyway.

 

[NobleGreyHorse]

Then that's silly, because Tumblr doesn't have much to do with any part of the world or aspect of its functioning except... Tumblr.

I don't know how you measure productivity and risks in child care. Did all the kids survive to the end of the day without destroying their environment or each other? Cool, you were productive. Risks? Did you have a chair buried in your skull by a kid raging about a toy? Fantastic, you've averted risk. OSHA can't make standards for everything, mate. (It does have requirements about number of carers per kid, and what shots carers need to have had, but no government agency can cover every single contingency.)

Sexism hurts men too. On every possible level. That's why men are expected to do all the jobs that carry the risk of, I dunno, a blowtorch to the face. Sexism says, "You man. You good for muscle things. You go on oil rig and make oil come out of ground. Perhaps you grunt some and eat steak when get home." Likewise, it says that men are fucking useless at taking care of kids or being the "househusband" OPL aspires to be. Hence all the cleaning-product commercials where men are portrayed as idiots who have to be rescued by their wives. This is all raging bollocks; we've all met men who were by far the better parent than their wives, or who were calm under pressure enough to be superb professional carers. A lot of crime-scene cleaners are men. The guys who head the cleaning crew on Hoarders are men, and I believe at least one of them started out as a crime-scene cleaner -- if there's cleaning worse than that, I don't want to know about it. But the patriarchy -- yes, patriarchy -- doesn't want men recognizing that, or deciding they really don't want to weld shit for a living. Your caring side? Fuck that, we need you down the coal mine. So those jobs were already filled with men by the time women started realizing that some of us,individually, could have the same strength as a guy.

Also if you don't think women are harassed out of college majors that lead to career fields like aerospace engineering, you haven't been on a college campus lately. Likewise, some men have decided that Anita Sarkeesian, right or wrong, good vlogger or bad vlogger, is the biggest problem in their world. If ANY vlogger is the biggest problem in ANY person's world, I submit that that person enjoys quite a measure of social privilege -- e.g. stretching their food dollar to feed a family isn't their biggest problem, nor are gas prices, but BY GOD that Sarkeesian person must be taught a LESSON. So instead of taking intelligent exception to her points, the noisy minority call for her head, and another woman says, "Fuck it, the gaming industry clearly doesn't want my skills."

 

[Holdek]

Women still make something like 60-70 cents for every dollar a man makes in the US for the same shit. Often they're herded into traditionally female occupations (nursing, child care, teaching) which, you guessed it, pay less than occupations deemed traditionally male (and I don't even mean the ones that depend on physical capability). Until that changes, privilege is a thing. Sorry.

You say that they make less than a man for doing the same shit, and then in the next sentence say that they are herded into different occupations, in other words, doing different shit.

Also, the standard talking point on this is 77 cents, not 60-70, although it's actually closer to 7 cents when you control for occupation.

 

[NobleGreyHorse]

If a man goes into childcare or K-12 teaching, he will typically, yes, get the same shit rate of pay. Typically. I am not, personally, an economist. What controls for occupation are you talking about? Do you not see it as a problem that not many women make it through the hazing my good friend experienced in her first year of being an aerospace engineering major? I mean, that's one point of anecdata, but from what I hear it still occurs at the university I went to 20 years ago, and it is one of the aspects that keeps women from pursuing aerospace engineering as a career. "Jane" made a fantastic historian and has contributed hugely to that field, but she had the mental chops to have been a fantastic engineer as well.

 

[Holdek]

If a man goes into childcare or K-12 teaching, he will typically, yes, get the same shit rate of pay. Typically. I am not, personally, an economist. What controls for occupation are you talking about? Do you not see it as a problem that not many women make it through the hazing my good friend experienced in her first year of being an aerospace engineering major? I mean, that's one point of anecdata, but from what I hear it still occurs at the university I went to 20 years ago, and it is one of the aspects that keeps women from pursuing aerospace engineering as a career. "Jane" made a fantastic historian and has contributed hugely to that field, but she had the mental chops to have been a fantastic engineer as well.

By controls, I meant considering that men and women go into different occupations, regardless of whether or not the decisions to do so were properly influenced.

I think there's a problem with old boys clubs causing problems for women in traditionally male-dominated fields. But I also think men and women tend to be interested in different things as well.

 

[PrimeCutDiggityDog]

[youtube]G_sGn6PdmIo[/youtube]

Just gonna leave this here.

The statistics where the evidence for a wage gap is cited from don't take into account amount of hours worked or what job they have.

Sexism hurts men too. On every possible level. That's why men are expected to do all the jobs that carry the risk of, I dunno, a blowtorch to the face. Sexism says, "You man. You good for muscle things. You go on oil rig and make oil come out of ground. Perhaps you grunt some and eat steak when get home." Likewise, it says that men are fucking useless at taking care of kids or being the "househusband" OPL aspires to be. Hence all the cleaning-product commercials where men are portrayed as idiots who have to be rescued by their wives. This is all raging bollocks; we've all met men who were by far the better parent than their wives, or who were calm under pressure enough to be superb professional carers.

Men's rights issues run a lot deeper than that. If we're talking strictly about social crap...

...stuff like this is what's most offensive to me.

 

[Holdek]

[youtube]G_sGn6PdmIo[/youtube]

Just gonna leave this here.

The statistics where the evidence for a wage gap is cited from don't take into account amount of hours worked or what job they have.

Sexism hurts men too. On every possible level. That's why men are expected to do all the jobs that carry the risk of, I dunno, a blowtorch to the face. Sexism says, "You man. You good for muscle things. You go on oil rig and make oil come out of ground. Perhaps you grunt some and eat steak when get home." Likewise, it says that men are fucking useless at taking care of kids or being the "househusband" OPL aspires to be. Hence all the cleaning-product commercials where men are portrayed as idiots who have to be rescued by their wives. This is all raging bollocks; we've all met men who were by far the better parent than their wives, or who were calm under pressure enough to be superb professional carers.

Men's rights issues run a lot deeper than that. If we're talking strictly about social crap...

...stuff like this is what's most offensive to me.

Seems like an easy business shortcut to get more profit would be to only hire women since you can supposedly get away with paying them substantially less in wages for the same work output as men. Yet no company seems to have figured this out.

 

[Picklepower]

Re: To women in this forum: Are we(men) pigs and inferior to

Feminism isn't a problem. Nobody disagrees with its core tenets. American liberalism is a problem though, and that's what feminists have been unfortunately tainted with. American liberalism seeks to place the heart over the rational, and seeks superiority for whatever their interest group is through "positive discrimination" like affirmative action. The Adria Richards fiasco is the perfect example of "it made me feel bad so send the nukes." Everything with liberals is about their feelings and never about logic; this is not an issue that has anything to do at all with women's rights. I see the same exact shit clogging up the gay movement, the movement for racial equality, and other movements. Identity politics and special interest groups are the worst thing to happen to this country, and they serve to perpetuate sexual/racial/sexuality-based distinctions instead of solving them.

It's this "let's make up things based on our feelings and demand superiority" mentality that has led me to check out of any gay rights activism. Some people make-up things like being a third gender, something unsubstantiated by academia. And that somehow this entitles them to expensive societal reforms and benefits? At what point are people just heaving shit at the wall and hoping it sticks? I lost it when I heard gays press for affirmative action. I just can't tolerate any kind of special interest group, because they serve to perpetuate artificial distinctions that don't need to exist.

Another ridiculous example is countless accusations of racism where it has not occurred. Al Sharpton in general is the worst example of this. And just a few years ago, someone thought "black hole" was a racist term. It's stuff like this that is ruining legitimate civil rights movements; the tainting influence of modern American leftist ideology, where people's emotions and feelings are important for some strange reason, and logic ceases to exist.

Hopefully that context proves it's not a women's rights problem. There are real problems with women's rights that remain in this society (you absolutely deserve equal pay for equal qualifications), but there are also highly unsavory elements in all special interest groups pressing for superiority, using a basis that makes no sense. This is a leftist problem more than anything else. Go on the Tumblr to see the category of people I'm talking about here.

Leftism has turned everyone into sensitive people and ruined legitimate movements. Being sensitive is an absolutely deplorable trait.

That's pretty much my take on things too. I'm bisexual, and semi liberal, but I don't really identify with a party, and I see the ridiculous ways people go to extremes. I will say though, I don't think feelings shouldn't ever come into political decisions, If we only ran on pure logic like machines, without considering others rights, then we could do horrible things. But like you said, there are times when people get so wild with emotions, that they throw logic out the window. I think there must be a balance of logic and feelings, in decision making.

I'm for gay marriage, because I don't see how it would work any different then heterosexual marriage. I would not be for gay affirmative action though, or imagine, gay reparations. I think on an individual level, being sensitive isn't always a bad thing, just so long as your not too sensitive.

 

[AtroposHeart]

Do you consider yourself a feminist?

My short answer; I use too, but not anymore.

Here is my longer answer

I do not agree with feminism in its current third wave form or the radical view of it. Let me explain if you are a woman and can go on tumblr(or whatever site, but I am using the most stereotypical example.) and can post about how you want to dismantle the patriarchy then congratulations you are privileged. I don't care what your skin color is, what disabilities you have, or your sexual orientation. You are privileged. You are privileged enough to live in a country and era where a woman does not need male protection for basic survival. Like it, or not, in many parts of the world patriarchy is what keeps women and childrenalive.

I would ask this question why did you think patriarchy began? Did all the men in the world gather and decide that they were going to oppress women for their own benefit? Or likely, it has too do with the physical differences between men and women. Women are biologically weaker than men; and also because of pregnancy and childbirth women are left far more valuable and defenseless than men. In the caveman era, if the cavemen just had sex with the cavewomen and then went off to do their thing and left the cavewoman to care fend for herself while she was in the valnurable state of pregnancy either from predators, or other tribes. It is very unlikely that either she, or the baby would survive. Thus the human race would be doomed. No, if patriarchy exists(You can argue it doesn't) then it likely came from the fact the human race has a much likely chance of surviving if a woman has someone around to protect her and her offspring, and also provide food for them. If patriacry is evil, then it was a necessary evil for the survival of the human race.

I was a feminist for a while, then I did research into both men's rights and feminist argument. I came out believing both sides are crazy, and in need of serious therapy. However, I have learned that both genders have it's advantages and disadvantages. Feminists will argue that male privilege exists, while MRA's will argue that female privilege exists. Here is the thing both groups are right. Being a ceritian gender does give you privileges, but also disadvantages. However, I will argue that most of the "privelages" that men and women have are rooted more in basic biology than a feminist or patriarcy conspiracy.

Also feminists are in constant fights with each other. WOC feminists(I hate that term) are always bitching about how white feminists aren't doing enough. Radical feminists are hating on liberal feminists and transwomen. And everyone hates the evul white male.

I don't consider myself a feminists, or a social justice warrior because I believe in treating people decently regardless of race, gender, religion, or LBGT status.

 

[The Hunter]

Re: Do you consider yourself a feminist?

viewtopic.php?f=18&t=687

 

[Watcher]

Re: Do you consider yourself a feminist?

I don't really adopt group mentalities

 

[exball]

Re: Do you consider yourself a feminist?

Great thread.

 

[Cute Anime Girl]

Re: Do you consider yourself a feminist?

Modern Feminism is a joke.

 

[Linako 2.0]

Re: Do you consider yourself a feminist?

My Grandma considered herself one of the early feminists of Mexico.
She told me to stay away from feminism because "they separated from their roots and became nothing but a bunch a whining babies."
I had no idea what she was talking about until I came here to m'urica and met my former best friend

 

[Picklepower]

Re: Do you consider yourself a feminist?

I think gender equality is important, and even though things have improved greatly, sexism still exists, especially in the Middle East. I support feminism, but don't accuse me of being a SJW.

 

[Linako 2.0]

Re: Do you consider yourself a feminist?

So, you're an Egalitarian

 

[CWCissey]

 

[KatsuKitty]

http://static.fjcdn.com/pictures/The+Difference_f20935_4628836.jpg

I think that picture sums up a lot of my feelings on certain offshoots of western "feminism". The interesting thing about this is that you'd probably be criticized by a feminist because of saying Islam (as well as a gaggle of other religions and cultures) is horrible for women's rights. They've not only lost their focus, which was women's rights and not the rights of anyone claming to be any kind of minority (imagined or real), but also tend to look for things to complain about that hurt their feelings instead of getting actual work in this field done.

I think really though, this comes from living in a first-world country where your immediate concerns are not being aborted for being female or having your clit spaded off. In pursuit of something to be oppressed about they start grabbing at straws, much in the same way that police would probably start jailing people for jaywalking and speeding if every single more serious crime was "solved".

 

[Hasharin]

I'm all for the emancipation of women, but I'm not a fan of feminism. It ignores class division of society and the resulting fact that interests of bourgeois and proletarian women are different. Also I don't think we can fight sexism just by changing individual behaviour or by quotas imposed by the state.

The followers of historical materialism reject the existence of a special woman question separate from the general social question of our day. Specific economic factors were behind the subordination of women; natural qualities have been a secondary factor in this process. Only the complete disappearance of these factors, only the evolution of those forces which at some point in the past gave rise to the subjection of women, is able in a fundamental way to influence and change their social position. In other words, women can become truly free and equal only in a world organised along new social and productive lines.