Egg Freezing - Potential psyop?

[Nonny]

If anything, the scam here is that women will spend a ton of money on this and find that they’re still able to conceive normally without that much trouble when they get to it in their late 30s and early 40s.. Fertility decline and increased pregnancy risk with age certainly exists, but not nearly to the degree people (and the weird incels on this site specifically) believe.

There wasn’t a ton of good data on this either way the last time I looked, so I’m not going to bother digging up a source right now, but anecdotally nearly everyone I know with kids had at least one after 35, many after 40. Maybe it takes a few more months to conceive, maybe you have one more early miscarriage than you would have at 25, but it’s not a precipitous drop for most people. More a slow slide that accelerates as you get closer to menopause.

Of course the risk of downs and other trisomies slowly goes up too, but with the early blood testing we have now, you can even terminate around the start of the second trimester. Assuming you live someplace that hasn’t gone insane at least, or are able to travel. It’s still heartbreaking, but not nearly as difficult as if you’d have to wait for the anatomy scan at 20 weeks, or weigh the risks of doing amnio.

 

[Dysnomia]

Sadly I don't know any families who started in their 20s who aren't living extremely precariously, struggling to make ends meet, often in the uncertainty of the rental sector. They are mostly still together as couples too, if a dad nopes out it is staggeringly difficult. Is that a better option than preserving your fertility and giving your child a more secure upbringing?

As for the "playing god" argument, if you accept medical intervention you already are so quit moralising on others' decisions and go die of typhoid.

The pressure for women to have children young even if it's not the right time is something a lot of men don't seem to understand. They aren't carrying the baby and dealing with work and health issues that come with it. Their lives don't change in the same way. The younger you are the less stable your situation is likely to be. The world isn't what it used to be. And biology isn't catching up to the state of affairs. That's just the way it is. Women are more than just wombs with personalities.

If anything, the scam here is that women will spend a ton of money on this and find that they’re still able to conceive normally without that much trouble when they get to it in their late 30s and early 40s.. Fertility decline and increased pregnancy risk with age certainly exists, but not nearly to the degree people (and the weird incels on this site specifically) believe.

There wasn’t a ton of good data on this either way the last time I looked, so I’m not going to bother digging up a source right now, but anecdotally nearly everyone I know with kids had at least one after 35, many after 40. Maybe it takes a few more months to conceive, maybe you have one more early miscarriage than you would have at 25, but it’s not a precipitous drop for most people. More a slow slide that accelerates as you get closer to menopause.

Of course the risk of downs and other trisomies slowly goes up too, but with the early blood testing we have now, you can even terminate around the start of the second trimester. Assuming you live someplace that hasn’t gone insane at least, or are able to travel. It’s still heartbreaking, but not nearly as difficult as if you’d have to wait for the anatomy scan at 20 weeks, or weigh the risks of doing amnio.

My aunt has a coworker who had a baby at 51. She thought it was impossible to conceive. But bam! Change of life baby. He's a normal kid. So no trisomies or anything. But it happens.

 

[Otterly]

Are you comfortable with a corporation or the government is now in charge with your eggs (literally)?

No. Egg freezing doesn’t work well. Embryo freezing has a higher success rate but not eggs. There’s also significant danger from the process they use to harvest the eggs and it may actually reduce your fertility further - you only have a set ovarian reserve and overclocking it young is a dumb idea. Egg freezing should be for things like young cancer patients who want to at least try to preserve some fertility

Then there is a drug that induces menopause like symptoms to prevent you ovulating early.

Do you know what that drug is? It’s one like lupron, which is the puberty blocker used on trooned out kids. It has hideous side effects on adult women and there’s no absolute need for it - the company who make it just wanted to don another use to use it for for profit

 

[Shartavius]

Viable women don't freeze their eggs, except in rare medical cases wherein sterility is foreseen to be a legitimate risk to a woman who actually wants to be a mother. In the case of Career Mommy being too busy to follow her own biological imperatives, she could simply adopt once she's finally grown into a responsible person at age Too Late: There's certainly no shortage of unwanted people littering the surface of this smoldering ball of shit. Oh - but other babies aren't as good as Career Mommy's personal brand of freezer-burnt bullshit when it comes to passing her values of "ME: RIGHT. FUCKING. NOW" on to her ego-stroking clone of a shit brat who resembles mom in every negative respect; right down to the lousy way she fucks. Surely, we need another generation of that in the breeding pool.

So, please: Keep those eggs on ice for a rainy day; when the loneliness which showed up with middle age is so profoundly oppressive that you need to invent new reasons for willing yourself out of bed to face equally bleak regrets for the past and dread for the future - An existence of such blight, decay, and absence of color that your internal monologue now only pipes up to rationalize how convenient the prospect of becoming a single mother is suddenly seeming.

It's a "scam" only because every form of suffering has an industry devoted to it. In this case, the magical thinking of The Latest Technology is invoked to bolster empty promises in the course of the actual, age-old scam of telling a vulnerable person what they want to hear:

"You can most definitely put life on 'Pause' , Ma'am! For a nominal fee, you can push the worry out of your mind until all other items are crossed off your to-do list.! The opportunity will be waiting for you once you're ready!."

As a service, freezing one's eggs is there as an I.O.U. for women promising themselves a quick fix out of any rut they're liable to steer themselves into between now and when their workplace friend asks why one of their cats is wearing a diaper.

 

[isalaide]

Is embryo adoption common in the UK? I've heard of a few people choosing that path and I always struggle to fully comprehend the decision behind it.

More on topic, I guess I shouldn't really be surprised that there is an egg freezing subreddit, but I am.

Ah, the old 'snowflake adoptions'? I know it's legal, but no, it's not really done to the best of my knowledge.

I think the idea is that the baby feels 'less adopted' or something if you carried them to term yourself. I can see how that might work, and I think it probably simplifies the adoption legally if there's no other birth mother in the picture. I never considered it for myself so I can't say I've ever thought too much about it.

Like I say, we were happy to pursue infant adoption if need be, so we never really looked into this stuff too deeply.

 

[Kufungisisa]

Erm, what? Sources or it didn't happen

Sorry that should have read "the majority of parents of children your child's age".

You can understand maths but just spell out what I mean, to make sure I make more sense this time:

If you have a kid at 20, they are 60 when you are 80.

If you are 40, then the kid will be 40.

You could die when they are born of course.

 

[WTBOnlineFather]

Corporations are fiercely promoting a thing that keeps women at work instead of having children and you're having to ask if maybe there's a hidden downside to it? The psyop is working.

 

[Fatal Shooting]

It's harder to have a child later on not just because of eggs but because of increased risks in pregnancy, not having the energy or mobility to keep up with a child, the fact you will certainly die much earlier than the majority of parents are expected to live.

It's harder on the child than it is on the parents, it's selfish.

The menopause exists for a reason (all the other crap that goes along with it can fuck off though).

This technology was first developed for young women who needed to undergo cancer treatment. It was supposed to be that you freeze some eggs at 28 and use them at 31, not that you freeze eggs at 39 and use them at 46.

 

[Tutu]

I have nothing against people who have children via assisted reproductive technologies for medical reasons besides the fact that infertility is a sign they are dysgenic but hey, even if you have bad genetics, you must be loaded if you have the money to afford this so your kids will be just fine. I only support women who carry their own babies though, all surrogacy is unethical. If you have to go through the length of renting some Nigerian peasant's womb to breed and there is literally no other way, it is a clear sign that you should be removed from the gene pool, you fucking subhuman. There are also women who are struggling with other medical conditions like cancer that want to wait until they are healthier to give birth and it makes complete sense why people like those would freeze their eggs.

The internet exaggerates the risk of becoming a mother over 35, lots of older women conceive naturally and give birth to healthy children without a problem. However, forget the moid fearmongering about the wall and think about your own convenience. If you want to and are able to have kids in your 20s and 30s, it is a good idea to get it over with when you are in this age bracket because pregnancy and its complications tend to get more challenging with age. The healing process will be easier, you will experience less pain and stress. You have more energy to take care of a newborn when you are young.

I respect that some women freeze their eggs for non-medical reasons like their career or planning to be a mother later in life. Especially if you are an actress, model, athlete, it is understandable since these careers tend to have a short lifespan where you are supposed to work as hard as you can while you are young. Most women who have frozen their eggs that I've heard of aren't the average woman, they're Hollywood actresses and stuff, a fringe population. For most normalfag careers where it is not a super competitive industry and you can get maternity leave, you won't need this procedure but it's ultimately up to you.

If it is simply a personal choice, you should read about how hard it is from other women who have done it, know that getting pregnant via frozen eggs is more painful than the natural way, it is not guaranteed to succeed and it is expensive. I don't think it's worth putting yourself through all that unless you absolutely need to. Weigh all the pros and cons, be fully aware of all risks to make an informed decision. If it works out, I'm happy for you sis. If it doesn't, don't worry, millions of women all around the world are also childless for various reasons and you will be okay.

 

[glioblastoma multiforme]

she could simply adopt

Ah yes, its just that easy.

Adoption pay in the UK is 90% your normal pay for 6 weeks. Then £183 per week for 33 weeks.. They are entitled to 52 weeks adoption leave, and this is a condition of adoption though exceptions can be made for children of school age. Rent or can mortgage payments easily exceed £1000 per month for 2+ bed houses. Utilities and insurance another ~£300 per month.

Many dual income households simply can't afford to lose most of one of the incomes for that long. If you are earning the average wage in the UK then for that 33 weeks one income is cut to less than a third of what it was. Then you just have 13 weeks with no pay whatsoever. Some employers are supportive and offer more, but there is no requirement, so many just meet the statutory requirements.

This makes it actually cheaper to get IVF, as if you have sufficient service time in your job you can get 6 months full pay during maternity leave then better than £183 per week for the remaining leave entitlement. Just the 13 weeks of no pay is a loss of over £8k for an average earner, which is approximately the price of a round of IVF.

Most people even on significantly higher than average earnings here simply cannot afford the financial hit of adoption. Its a huge travesty as there are many couple willing to adopt that make the above calculation and go for IVF, especially if they can get it funded on the NHS. It shouldn't be a financial decision, but it sadly is.

Like those arguing for women to have children earlier, saying you can just adopt is basically saying you're fine with children living in extreme financial hardship. This is worse for adopted kids cos they already likely have significant issues arising from the reason they were adopted in the first place. Children need stability not precarity.

Edit- maths

Edit 2, relevant article by a journalist I respect despite her being far too left wing for my tastes. She provides links to statistics that back up what myself and others have argued in this thread.

 

[Shartavius]

Like those arguing for women to have children earlier, saying you can just adopt is basically saying you're fine with children living in extreme financial hardship.

You made a case for the UK being the shit hole the rest of the world knows that it is; and not that my curmudgeonly rant about the fad of freezing eggs largely appealing to women too selfish to consider adoption should be taken in an ad hominem manner to mean that I am "fine with children living in extreme financial hardship." Heaven forbid these UK women should find themselves obliged to sacrifice anything in the course of raising a child - Not that anyone is forcing them to adopt as an alternative to buying in to the egg-freezing meme with their sub-adoption amounts of disposable income.

I hope England sinks as a solution to the bureaucratic hurdles you posted. People choose to adopt because they empathize with a kid needing a home - If a personal need to feel financially secure at all times is the priority, I should hope the latter would preclude the former.

 

[Stan]

No, I would not do it. I wouldn't want to go through retrieval even. Then again, I'm not really the kind of person this "solution" is being shoved towards. I've got enough assets and generational wealth that I don't need to weigh the benefit having kids against the financial concerns from doing so, which I think is why a lot of women DO put off having kids. It doesn't help that the middle class is super sweaty about children's education and activities, seeing it as the only way for their kids to "get ahead". Generation on generation the average investment in education per kid has increased a lot and that's perceptible to women in entry-level jobs who know having kids is going to hamstring their earning potential for many years going forward (if not indefinitely.)

It seems like a false economy anyway. Whatever 10 to 15 years or so you could get pre-1st-child to focus on your work you have to pay back by being geriatric when your kids come of age. The chances of you being there to support your kid's major adult life events, like graduations, getting married, having kids of their own all become questionable if you're having your first child at 45 and up.

Of course the risk of downs and other trisomies slowly goes up too, but with the early blood testing we have now, you can even terminate around the start of the second trimester. Assuming you live someplace that hasn’t gone insane at least, or are able to travel. It’s still heartbreaking, but not nearly as difficult as if you’d have to wait for the anatomy scan at 20 weeks, or weigh the risks of doing amnio.

Would rather go through all that than retrieval. Like Otterly said, you've got the two ovaries (hopefully) and that's your ovarian reserve for the rest of your life. I would not want to fool around with drugs to mess with their output. (Fellas: would you want to take a drug that enhances the fertility and quantity of your sperm, knowing it could make you impotent at an earlier age? I don't really think you would.)

WHT regulars are now poking gorls in their own forum. Truly war has commenced.

WHT regulars are also Gorl Forum regulars, they're just barred from posting in a majority of the threads they care about. so whenever a new thread appears they're not specifically banned from, that covers any topic anywhere near WHT talking points, they all notice at once and mob it like a bunch of seagulls assaulting an unattended plate of chips.

Viable women don't freeze their eggs, except in rare medical cases wherein sterility is foreseen to be a legitimate risk to a woman who actually wants to be a mother. In the case of Career Mommy being too busy to follow her own biological imperatives, she could simply adopt once she's finally grown into a responsible person at age Too Late: There's certainly no shortage of unwanted people littering the surface of this smoldering ball of shit. Oh - but other babies aren't as good as Career Mommy's personal brand of freezer-burnt bullshit when it comes to passing her values of "ME: RIGHT. FUCKING. NOW" on to her ego-stroking clone of a shit brat who resembles mom in every negative respect; right down to the lousy way she fucks. Surely, we need another generation of that in the breeding pool.

See what I mean? This guy just wants to get mad at women who work.

 

[pentangle]

I'm getting mine frozen later this month. It's not ideal and it's super expensive and it can increase your risk for certain ovarian cancers. There are other potential medical complications too - you can get OVARIAN TORSIONS because they swell up in response to the hormones, some women feel them moving around when they walk (Jesus Christ), you can get ovarian hyperstimulation syndrome and lose one of your ovaries (but the likelihood is quite rare), and apparently the week you're off your hormones is like PMDD on crack (and hormonal fluctuations can trigger stuff like mood disorders in women with the genetics for those, but so can pregnancy). It also absolutely feels like the doctors in charge hide this shit from you or only talk about it if you directly ask them (rather than informing you about it unprompted), since at the end they stand to make a lot of money from it.

That being said, I'm desperate for kids and I do think it would be patently unethical to settle down with some subpar moid and subject my kid to the consequences of their bad genetics and/or environmental influence and/or financial instability. Obviously I'd rather have had my kids earlier, but the thing about families is that they're contingent on the actions of other people too - you can't just choose to have kids early and make it a thing just because you might want that (I mean you probably could, if you were willing to settle hard enough, which seems equally dubious).

For what it's worth, statistics show that the #1 reason women freeze their eggs (by a substantive margin - I'm talking like 80%) is lack of partner choice - not careers, not feminist brainwashing, not liberal media etc.

Also, re the likelihood of it actually working, if you freeze 20 eggs you have a 70% chance of getting a baby out of it:

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/23/health/egg-freezing-age-pregnancy.html

The factors that affect the likelihood of it being successful are the age at which you freeze it (the age at which you thaw it doesn't matter) and how many end up being frozen.

 

[xivnuhranx]

Egg freezing is dangerously close to surrogacy. Its for all intents and purposes the female version of surrogacy. Surrogacy exists for Men who can't be bothered to form a meaningful relationship with a woman and make her a wife and mother. Egg freezing by contrast allows woman to put off the biological clock in a search for the "perfect" husband and father. Of course nobody is perfect and so in an act of pure perversion quite often frozen eggs end up in a surrogate anyway. And even if they don't there is then odds on good chance they end up with a faceless sperm donor since most men are absolutely not interested in an infertile woman unless they've already had kids, got divorced and are now just looking for companionship rather then a family.

Facts of life.

Egg Freezing is a lie given to women similar to sperm freezing for young boys being conditioned to troon out and cut off their balls. Its not a panacea. It has complications, and the end result is not how it appears in the pamphlet.

I wouldn't place the blame solely on men when it comes to surrogacy. It's becoming more popular with wealthy women and actresses particularly who don't want to ruin their bodies or deal with pregnancy, but want to have a biological child.

Egg freezing was originally meant for women who had certain kinds of cancer where the cancer treatment would destroy many of her eggs. It was never meant for women waiting for a man to show up in their lives. Before it became trendy to freeze eggs, you would just adopt or not have kids. End of the story.

 

[Nonny]

You made a case for the UK being the shit hole the rest of the world knows that it is; and not that my curmudgeonly rant about the fad of freezing eggs largely appealing to women too selfish to consider adoption should be taken in an ad hominem manner to mean that I am "fine with children living in extreme financial hardship." Heaven forbid these UK women should find themselves obliged to sacrifice anything in the course of raising a child - Not that anyone is forcing them to adopt as an alternative to buying in to the egg-freezing meme with their sub-adoption amounts of disposable income.

I hope England sinks as a solution to the bureaucratic hurdles you posted. People choose to adopt because they empathize with a kid needing a home - If a personal need to feel financially secure at all times is the priority, I should hope the latter would preclude the former.

The US is worse, and it’s not because of government bureaucracy - here we don’t have any family pay after adopting, though some states have some tax credits. You might get your fmla time and that’s it.

It costs about $20k-$60k to adopt. The wide range reflects how choosy you are about your kid. If you want a healthy newborn, god help you a white newborn, you’re at the top of that range (or higher), and be prepared to wait awhile for one to show up. And you’re not even guaranteed to get a kid at the end - sometimes the process falls through and you’re just out the money (there are exceptions to this). You won’t know for sure if the kid was trafficked, or has a disability, or got knocked around good a few times before getting put up for adoption. And god knows what they got exposed to in utero.

If you only have a few grand to toss at this process, you can foster-to-adopt, which is quite inexpensive by comparison. But you’re getting kids, usually older ones unless you’re getting several including a baby sibling, who have seen some *shit*.

And it takes a long time, and you have to jump through whatever hoops the private agency decides they want. This involves extensive home visits and studies so they make sure your house is up to snuff, and since these agencies are usually religious they’re going to have specific thoughts about the morals they want their adopters to hold.

So scold people all you want for not adopting, but most people don’t dismiss it out of hand because they think they can only love their own genetic material. It’s expensive and invasive and risky, and odds are good you’ll wind up with a high-needs kid. I’m happy to be corrected on the specifics of anything here, but I’ve known people who’ve done international, domestic, and foster adoptions, and they’ve all been exhausting processes. And almost all of the kids have been special needs, just because that’s who’s available.

 

[Shartavius]

So scold people all you want for not adopting,

Firstly, thank you for the well-considered reply and informative post. I wasn't scolding people for not adopting. I was making fun of the target demographic for the fad of egg-freezing, and how the investment is liable to be rationalized; because the topic was (initially) to do with soliciting posts explaining why it would be considered be a scam perpetrated against a certain demographic of women with disposable income- Hence my largely facetious, admonishing rant. Given the amount of turkey gobbles some of the other posters have responded with, I clearly underestimated how many women currently registered to post on Kiwi Farms find peace of mind in the prospect of buying love, or in a promise made with no guarantees. Had the topic devolved from irreverent posts to sanctimonious shit-flinging prior to my reply, I wouldn't have bothered with poking at a straw man representing lonely women. This is all to say that I find no disagreement with what you posted other than accusing me of "scolding" women for not adopting: If such stereotypes exist, it is likely too late for genuine scolding to help them.

 

[babyTAP]

A friend of mine was recruited by a clinic scout and paid 30k (and some other perks like destination trips) for one retrieval cycle worth of eggs for donation in her mid 20s. Apparently there’s a big shortage of Jewish eggs in my country.

 

[Prokhor Zakharov]

Egg Freezing is a lie given to women similar to sperm freezing for young boys being conditioned to troon out and cut off their balls. Its not a panacea. It has complications, and the end result is not how it appears in the pamphlet

The whole "sperm freezing" situation is actually far, far more reliable than the "egg freezing" process.

 

[umami's milk]

Jewish eggs

There's a Borat joke in there somewhere.

 

[Neurotypical Mantis]

oh i thought this thread was about cooking mb