Debate user The_Cowcel about incels.

[The_Cowcel]

So you actually have someone willing to be friends with you but you insult him because you think you're better than him. Class act. You're an unpleasant person and that's why people don't want to be around you. But let me guess, you're only like that because you didn't get a girlfriend early enough in life and you'd be a ray of fucking sunshine if only a woman waltzed up to you and dropped her panties.

Every minute spent on a call with him is a minute of constant stress not knowing when he'll interrupt whatever it is I'm doing to talk about how he wants "cunny", to fuck me or to just ask some spergy question about something I have little interest in. We have no shared hobbies or interests so I'm mostly just dragged around doing whatever the fuck he wants in fear of losing one of the only connections I have left.

I think I have a right to have contempt towards an open lolicon talks about wanting to fuck me and clearly autistic and is borderline retarded and I while I admit I'm not perfect I don't think the bar for being better than him is too high.

I guess it's not that shocking you'd be desperate enough to associate with someone you have contempt with though, considering you don't even seem to like women despite your desperation to "get" one. Why do you even want a girlfriend if you don't enjoy the company of women in the first place? What do you think you'd get out of a relationship?

How can you say I don't enjoy the company of women when the last time I experienced it was years ago, purely platonic and even then it's clear that she just felt bad for me and was trying to help me out because she was friends with my mom and sister.

They were giving examples, you autist, not demanding you engage in those specific activities. But it's funny how even with someone spoon-feeding you suggestions for hobbies to try you find a reason to reject every one of them because they're difficult or pointless. If someone threw you a life raft while you were drowning, you'd pop out of the water to complain about how you've already been treading water for 10 minutes, you hate swimming, and you don't see the point anyway if you can't get a woman.

I want specific advice so I can try to filter down to what would work best, If I don't have much interest in anything for it's own sake then I might as well compare my options based on likeliness of being able to encounter women from it, accessibility and cost. I just don't know what people do these days or how much most things cost to get into.

Have you been prescribed antidepressants?

Yeah and they were fucking horrible. They "fixed" my desperation to a degree by neutering me to the point where I no longer begged for help as frequently but was still miserable and saw no point in living if this was to be the way my life is.

"I don't need to be turned into a drugged up zombie, I am already self medicating with 200$ of booze per a week, it's a much easier method of becoming a zombie."

$10, not $200. I drink at home and I buy the cheapest vodka I can find. bars are extortionately priced and if I go out I only ever order a single beer and sip it through the night, when it's done I view that as an excuse to give up for the night and go home. If I wasn't a friendless loser I could have someone else drive me and I could pregame but unfortunately I need to be able to drive myself everywhere.

Everyone I know fears becoming a drugged up zombie. See a nice male psychiatrist and tell him how shit you are at talking to people, but also your fear of becoming a drugged up zombie. Psychs listen and will give you baby medication that you can easily wean off of instead of becoming a heroin zombie. You can also tell your psych "Hey, I feel nothing, period, I do not like this," and they'll take you off your medication and switch to a new one. And if they don't? Find another psychiatrist. You're not going to be pumped full of first generation anti psychotics and made to walk around aimlessly.

I guess I'll bring it up with my psychiatrist at my next appointment. It's just exhausting constantly trying to try new meds as though they'll fix anything when I've been going through this process for over twenty years now and nothing I've been prescribed has helped.

Can you imagine dating this guy and dealing with him once he realized a girlfriend didn't magically fix his autism and sadbrains? Based on what I've seen when guys like this actually stumble into pussy, he'd refuse to put effort into the relationship or treat her well while also being desperate for her not to leave him.

Wouldn't she take constantly being treated well as a sign of extreme desperation and be driven to cheat because she knows she'll be able to get away with anything because I can't afford to lose her?

 

[AMHOLIO]

It's just exhausting constantly trying to try new meds as though they'll fix anything when I've been going through this process for over twenty years now and nothing I've been prescribed has helped.

I'd imagine. That's why I point to cognative therapy. The problem is that therapy takes time to work, and you don't have patience. You dismiss advice given to you and give up. Living is hard no matter what.

 

[Mamimi]

How can you say I don't enjoy the company of women when the last time I experienced it was years ago, purely platonic and even then it's clear that she just felt bad for me and was trying to help me out because she was friends with my mom and sister.

Because you've talked before about finding women in general annoying, and you eschew socializing. So if you don't even know if you'd like spending time with a woman, how can you be so sure that your happiness hinges on having a committed relationship with one?

I'll ask you again: what do you think you'd get out of a romantic relationship?

Wouldn't she take constantly being treated well as a sign of extreme desperation and be driven to cheat because she knows she'll be able to get away with anything because I can't afford to lose her?

Nobody cheats because they're being treated well. How did you arrive at this conclusion? Would YOU cheat on your partner just because you had the opportunity?

This is exactly the point I and several others made. Even if you got a girlfriend, you'd immediately sabotage it in a desperate attempt to avoid abandonment.

 

[Party Hat Wurmple]

What other approach can I take other than completely giving up? I've never been taught how to navigate life, growing up I was always told what to do and didn't have any real life social groups to observe peer dynamics in.

So we have another autistic thread about incels? Okay, Ol Wurmple will give it a shot.

Cowcel, you stupid fucking faggot, do you want to know why you don't get laid? It's this right here. These two sentences spoil everything about what's wrong with you:

I don't have many wants or interests outside of that desperation.

I'm really not that picky with music so I'll get into whatever whatever

It's because you don't have an identity. You don't have a sense of self that belongs to you. You're willing to be a mold for whatever a girl wants to fill your desires with and you know what? That's NOT fucking attractive. It's repulsive. Women like men who are steadfast and confident in their identity. You aren't. You have no confidence in who you are and you have no sense of self. You'll never get anywhere in life like this. The worst part is, therapy can't help with this either. You need to ask yourself, how would people describe you? If you have no idea or it's just bad things you don't like, that's a problem.

So how do you fix this? Well, start with a little introspection and start asking yourself some questions. What did you like to do as a kid? What do you like to do for fun now other than video games? What's something you used to enjoy doing? The answer isn't nothing. You're nearly 30. You had a whole life where you had to have had at least some fun times with desires and things you wanted to do. They don't have to be big things. Maybe something as simple as walking a trail. Go do it. You always wanted to visit somewhere? Go do it. Get off your butt and go do the things you wanted to do. Even if you have to do it alone. Just go do it. Even if it doesn't pan out to be that great.

The reason people told you to get go get hobbies? It's because when you engage in hobbies, you're becoming interesting. The big problem with your outlook on life is your approach to it. If someone asks how your day went and they don't go "Whoa how'd you do all that in one day?" Or some variant, you wasted your day. That's how you want to live life. It should come at any cost and any expense. Heck, maybe you'll get lucky. Women have come up to me while I'm fishing. They posed for photos with my rod. I've had crowds applaud me for catching fish and people talking to me all the time. I'm not special, they just come up and I have a conversation. When you just mindlessly do the thing, things click into place. It doesn't matter if it's something you do in private, do it in public.

When it comes to women? You mentioned to had positive encounters with women before. Think about a girl that's liked you before. How did you behave towards a woman that liked you and was friendly with you? Start thinking about that. If you didn't have that, think about a girl that's been friendly towards you before, what did she like about you? I'm sure at 30 years old there had to have been at least some girl in your life that you kissed or at least exchanged phone numbers with. Even if it went nowhere. Think back on how that went. Start acting like that guy again.

When it comes to social circles, you need to find a really, really outgoing guy. You need to find the kind of guy friend they will talk to anyone and everyone, including women. You're very clearly not a main conversation starter, and that means you're a support role. Find a guy who doesn't mind talking to everyone and anyone and make friends with him. Let him take the lead and just focus on keeping conversations going. Over time the personality will bleed into you and it'll become natural. Also, don't be mean to your retard friend. You don't get many friends who stick by your side through thick and thin. You maybe get a handful in your lifetime.

Edit: NEVERMIND. CUT THE LOLICON LOOSE. HES DEAD WEIGHT.

Wouldn't she take constantly being treated well as a sign of extreme desperation and be driven to cheat because she knows she'll be able to get away with anything because I can't afford to lose her?

The problem is that even if you found a woman right now, you're so primed up and vulnerable, taking advantage of you is child's play. You have no willpower built up so you're just in an esoteric position to be taken advantage of.

Nobody cheats because they're being treated well.

L take, yes they do. There are many narcissistic women who see kindness as weakness. Given his personality type, that's exactly whom he'd attract.

I want specific advice so I can try to filter down to what would work best

I gave you a bunch of advice that is filtered down to exactly what you should do and you can and should start today. Think about something you want to do and just go out and do it. Something not video game related.

Also, if you're not already go to the gym.

Lastly, and certainly not least, dig deep. Find your nutsack, AND HAVE SOME GOD DAMN FUCKING PRIDE IN YOURSELF. HOLY MOTHER OF GOD. EVEN IF YOU HAVE TO COMPLETELY FAKE IT, BOOST YOUR OWN DAMN EGO SINCE NOBODY ELSE WILL. Seriously, stop being such a sorry sack. I don't tell you this because I'm being mean, but I am being mean, but it's because you truly do have to fake it a little because you've let yourself get this way.

Edit: Oh and go see the movie Obsession. In fact go to the movies tonight and see it. Really pay attention to it. You're Bear. This is your wake up call. Don't be Bear.

 

[HG Wells]

You say you’re intentionally passive in conversations and overthink them. People pick up on this and it makes them feel uncomfortable.

You need to be able to be comfortable just holding basic conversations with people. Practice with people who aren’t intimidating and go from there. The more you practice talking and engaging with people the more comfortable you’ll be around them.

As gay as it sounds, try an improv class to force you out of your shell. Yeah it’s embarrassing but you need to get out of your comfort zone and stop overthinking and over analyzing everything you say and do.

Start retardmaxxing.

And stop focusing on what hobbies women like. I have zero interest in my husbands hobbies and he has no interest in mine.

Find things you genuinely care about instead of just chasing pussy and a relationship and the rest will fall in line

 

[Penis Drager 2.0]

Yeah and they were fucking horrible. They "fixed" my desperation to a degree by neutering me to the point where I no longer begged for help as frequently but was still miserable and saw no point in living if this was to be the way my life is

This is something to discuss with a psychiatrist. Different antidepressants work differently on different people.
The symptoms that need to be addressed are "anhedonia" and "loss of executive function." These are terms you probably heard from your shrink as they were filling the prescription. The drug you were provided apparently did not alleviate them and came with that suicidal ideation ala "saw no point in living." Those are instant red flags that you need to switch medication, not cut them entirely.

Your psychiatrist needs to be made aware of these things so they can find something else to give you. Meanwhile, you need to pair that medication with a genuine effort to find hobbies and interests that suit you.
As I and everyone else ITT have explicitly been telling you: it is absolutely critical that you have something good going on in your personal life. That is literally the only way to make being around you anything other than a miserable experience.

 

[Friend of Dorothy Parker]

I am literally asking for advice so I can try something new but whenever I do I'm accused of claiming to know best and shooting down every option.

Which you are literally doing in this comment.

There is no more advice. The problem is your attitude. Until you overhaul that, the advice will not help you any more than it has in the past.

I don't need to be turned into a drugged up zombie.

Foolishness. You're assuming something will do x to you when you have no idea.

I haven't said drugs are your salvation, but don't (AGAIN) dismiss what you don't know about.

If I stop caring about getting a woman

Again, they're not party favors. Have some respect. (Internal problem #357).

then I'll have nothing left to care about, it's not healthy to be a socially isolated genetic dead end with

You've created this situation (the circular thought pattern and fixation). THAT is what is not healthy about you.

I don't have many wants or interests outside of that desperation. Most things just remind me of my inadequacies both in skill and quality of life.

And again. Obsession, fixation, whatever. You're choosing to ruin your life by clinging to it.

Yes, and I am asking how to curate my tastes to be desirable to the largest amount of women, I'm really not that picky with music so I'll get into whatever whatever

Now you must be trolling. This is so beyond lame. There is no way to curate your music that will make you desirable. First bc that's not what makes people desirable, and bc for it to be sexy, you actually need to be into it. What is sexy is people who have and enjoy their jams, find joy in [whatever], actually feel things organically and originally rather than in desperation.

I urge you to pause over what I'm saying rather than just knee-jerk reacting and pooh-poohing. You're not learning or growing or succeeding because you're not listening. Listening is not just "hear & respond."

I either need new things to try or more detail in how to try.

Do you actually understand why your friends repeatedly grow tired of you? You have a "here's why that's not enough" response to everything. And you think it is on everyone else to provide you the magical key to the kingdom.

The key doesn't exist outside your own mind.
It is not other people's jobs to give you instructions.
It is rude to continually badger people around you with the same questions over and over, while simultaneously that what they're saying isn't good enough.
Life doesn't come with instructions. It's on each of us to figure it out.
Everyone would be in your situation if they took your approach/ attitude. Instead, they figure out that it is they who must change - and not in a superficial and fake way by having someone tell them what music to pretend to like.

But all that truth aside, I'll bet a dollar that if someone gave you instructions on how to spend every minute of the next week - down to the minute, doing things you've not done and described in extreme detail (your criteria from above), you would not do it. Agree or disagree?

What other approach can I take other than completely giving up? I've never been taught how to navigate life, growing up I was always told what to do and didn't have any real life social groups to observe peer dynamics in.

You're a grownup now. You don't need training wheels, and you're not entitled to them. You have 2 feet for standing and pedaling. They're right fucking there.

I don't have many wants or interests outside of that desperation. Most things just remind me of my inadequacies both in skill and quality of life.

Depression is a terrible thing. Rumination or even worse obsession while severely depressed is a terrible churn. Yeah, nothing else is helping so get on some meds for depression (and maybe ocd, if that's broader than the woman question).

Meds, when a good fit, lift the cloud of fog so you can see beyond one foot ahead of you. This allows you to work on other things enough so they actually can start to work, can reveal some thinking fallacies you're laboring under, and can gradually let through a beam of sun, enough to take heart and develop a healthier outlook.

...and I have now read that you've tried. OK. Try again. Maybe it was a bad fit, or too much or not enough. How long were you on, did you take as prescribed always, and how many adjustments did you have? And make sure the doc knows about your obsessive interests as well.

But why do you have a psychiatrist if you're not on meds? In the US, anyway, there's hardly any interaction with one that is not meds-related. 99% do not do therapeutic work in any regular sense anymore. May be different where you are.

I think I've already tried that. for a period of years I was just cooped up in my room gaming, only going out for work not bothering with dating sites or trying to maximize my appeal to women and I was just as miserable and bitter than as I am now.

That is the total opposite of what I suggested. I get you don't really do abstraction and figurative language well, but you have enough brain power to realize that I obviously was not suggesting "try staying in your room and playing games online for ages.". Both because that's insane, and because I already literally said that was a bad idea.

I was talking about surrendering your fixed and fixated thoughts - and letting there be space for good things, not numbing out playing with toys.

I think I have a right to have contempt towards an open lolicon talks about wanting to fuck me and clearly autistic and is borderline retarded and I while I admit I'm not perfect I don't think the bar for being better than him is too high.

OK, fair. So drop people like that out of your life. It's cowardly and low character to keep them around if you don't respect them, instead of just cutting ties.

Wouldn't she take constantly being treated well as a sign of extreme desperation and be driven to cheat because she knows she'll be able to get away with anything because I can't afford to lose her?

Stop doing this. You're over thinking and over- engineering - and just completely offbase about all of it.

I'm starting to think you should watch George's "opposite" success arc on Seinfeld reruns. George Costanza, self described and actual loser, decided that he would try just doing the opposite of everything he thought he should do - and he ended up having ridiculous success.

And no, that doesn't literally happen (sigh; it was a sitcom); but ffs, you've got to see some humor in this and in how ridiculous you are being.

Speaking of, how often do you laugh? How often do you non-meanly chuckle at some silly habit you have or something dumb you did (which we all have/ do)? How often do you make a light joke at your own expense? Or even non-bitterly laugh when some angry tard on the internet insults you generically (tedious), but then somehow manages finally to land a minor good one? Can you laugh and say, "fair play, nice one," and make nice, or do you seethe?

Asking because if you don't laugh in joy, at funny things, and even at yourself, you have what we could call a very long way to go/ grow/ develop...or what we could call a whole universe of opportunities and ways to have a better life with very painless and plentiful applications.

 

[Starefag]

Making connections is a hell of a lot easier said than done.

Okay and? So's getting fit but people still do it.
Get a hobby. Join some fucking facebook groups. Idk fag you're the one who's entire life is revolving around smashing box, of course it's going to seem important.

 

[The_Cowcel]

Spoiler: replies to Mamimi

I'll ask you again: what do you think you'd get out of a romantic relationship?

Validation and the feeling of having reached a milestone that I should have reached long ago?

Nobody cheats because they're being treated well. How did you arrive at this conclusion? Would YOU cheat on your partner just because you had the opportunity?

Depending on the circumstance I might be tempted to. If I'm not attracted to my girlfriend, think she'll stay with me even if she finds out and I like the new girl more it would be hard to pass up the opportunity and that's the position any woman I get would find herself in.

This is exactly the point I and several others made. Even if you got a girlfriend, you'd immediately sabotage it in a desperate attempt to avoid abandonment.

How is trying to avoid abandonment sabotage? What am I mean to do to prevent being abandoned?

Spoiler: Replies to Party Hat Wurmple

It's because you don't have an identity. You don't have a sense of self that belongs to you. You're willing to be a mold for whatever a girl wants to fill your desires with and you know what? That's NOT fucking attractive. It's repulsive. Women like men who are steadfast and confident in their identity. You aren't. You have no confidence in who you are and you have no sense of self. You'll never get anywhere in life like this. The worst part is, therapy can't help with this either. You need to ask yourself, how would people describe you? If you have no idea or it's just bad things you don't like, that's a problem.

I know that I have no sense of self but I don't really know how to get one and I'm not sure how best to craft one. I understand that it's a problem but I just have difficulty fixing it.

So how do you fix this? Well, start with a little introspection and start asking yourself some questions. What did you like to do as a kid? What do you like to do for fun now other than video games? What's something you used to enjoy doing? The answer isn't nothing. You're nearly 30. You had a whole life where you had to have had at least some fun times with desires and things you wanted to do. They don't have to be big things. Maybe something as simple as walking a trail. Go do it. You always wanted to visit somewhere? Go do it. Get off your butt and go do the things you wanted to do. Even if you have to do it alone. Just go do it. Even if it doesn't pan out to be that great.

I can't think of anything I can do that's more enjoyable that sitting at home on my computer gaming or browsing forums and there isn't much I genuinely want to do this was a problem for me by the time I was in elementary school, hell most of the things I find out about are because my parents bring them up to me as options. Most activities I've tried just result in me being stressed and miserable at a different setting where I sit around for a an hour or so before heading back home. I have no interest in travel and the only enjoyable experiences I've had outside have been when I wasn't alone.
It's hard to keep up the motivation when I just don't care about the things I'm forcing myself to do.

The reason people told you to get go get hobbies? It's because when you engage in hobbies, you're becoming interesting. The big problem with your outlook on life is your approach to it. If someone asks how your day went and they don't go "Whoa how'd you do all that in one day?" Or some variant, you wasted your day. That's how you want to live life. It should come at any cost and any expense. Heck, maybe you'll get lucky. Women have come up to me while I'm fishing. They posed for photos with my rod. I've had crowds applaud me for catching fish and people talking to me all the time. I'm not special, they just come up and I have a conversation. When you just mindlessly do the thing, things click into place. It doesn't matter if it's something you do in private, do it in public.

See living like that just sounds miserable to me, I hate going out, spending money, doing things and never having time to relax at home. I feel like there's almost nothing to do in public, most of the time when I go out I just treat it as a chance to get my dating site swiping done for the day

When it comes to women? You mentioned to had positive encounters with women before. Think about a girl that's liked you before. How did you behave towards a woman that liked you and was friendly with you? Start thinking about that. If you didn't have that, think about a girl that's been friendly towards you before, what did she like about you? I'm sure at 30 years old there had to have been at least some girl in your life that you kissed or at least exchanged phone numbers with. Even if it went nowhere. Think back on how that went. Start acting like that guy again.

Those positive interactions were all long ago. The last positive interaction with a female peer that didn't feel like it was done out of pity is back when I was a preteen and even then I was firmly friendzoned(she was dating a guy, knew I was into her, broke up with him, rejected me and got with a new guy shortly afterwards), she slowly distanced herself before ghosting me entirely despite us knowing each other since we were six. On top of that she was only introduced to me because she was the daughter of my grandma's neighbor. I've never had a kiss, the only times I've got a girls number were either from family trying to introduce a girl to me(which always goes nowhere) or on dating sites where she gets bored of me after the first couple texts.

There was another girl later on but she just felt like she trying to help because she pitied me but she was too embarrassed by me to introduce me to any of her friends. She also firmly friendzoned me.

I can't go back to being "that guy" again, because "that guy" was a young child having his life directed by his family.

When it comes to social circles, you need to find a really, really outgoing guy. You need to find the kind of guy friend they will talk to anyone and everyone, including women. You're very clearly not a main conversation starter, and that means you're a support role. Find a guy who doesn't mind talking to everyone and anyone and make friends with him. Let him take the lead and just focus on keeping conversations going. Over time the personality will bleed into you and it'll become natural

I kind of have that with a family friend who's been trying to help me out but he's a mid 60s middle easterner rather than a peer and he doesn't seem to know much about the current generation

The problem is that even if you found a woman right now, you're so primed up and vulnerable, taking advantage of you is child's play. You have no willpower built up so you're just in an esoteric position to be taken advantage of.

I'm well aware of that but I'm also desperate enough to take the risk. A bad relationship experience would probably be good for me and at least it would be something new in my life.

I gave you a bunch of advice that is filtered down to exactly what you should do and you can and should start today. Think about something you want to do and just go out and do it. Something not video game related.

I don't have interest in much of anything that involves going out, most of my non-gym outings are the family friend dragging me along to somewhere I have less than zero interest in going just so we can sit around while he lectures me about how I need to be more outgoing and contribute more to conversations despite having already heard this same lecture a dozen times and having nothing left to add to the conversation because I've already been through this lesson a number of times with him. It's either that or just deciding to follow along with my parents when they're doing something in which case I just follow them around until it's time to go home. I've been told to try going to bars and restaurants alone but I rarely see young women besides the employees and once I get my dating site swiping out of the way I'm basically just left sitting around wishing I was home.

You say you’re intentionally passive in conversations and overthink them. People pick up on this and it makes them feel uncomfortable.

You need to be able to be comfortable just holding basic conversations with people. Practice with people who aren’t intimidating and go from there. The more you practice talking and engaging with people the more comfortable you’ll be around them.

As gay as it sounds, try an improv class to force you out of your shell. Yeah it’s embarrassing but you need to get out of your comfort zone and stop overthinking and over analyzing everything you say and do.

Start retardmaxxing.

And stop focusing on what hobbies women like. I have zero interest in my husbands hobbies and he has no interest in mine.

Find things you genuinely care about instead of just chasing pussy and a relationship and the rest will fall in line

Everyone is intimidating to me at this point though. I don't feel comfortable talking with anyone in my life. I'm always worried that I'll say the wrong thing so I'm always on edge.
I feel like I'd be too awkward and out of place at an improve class and don't think I'd be able to force myself to go consistently
How exactly am I meant to find things I genuinely care about besides chasing pussy and a relationship when nothing I try feels enjoyable and there's a constant nagging telling me I need to advance in life.

This is something to discuss with a psychiatrist. Different antidepressants work differently on different people.
The symptoms that need to be addressed are "anhedonia" and "loss of executive function." These are terms you probably heard from your shrink as they were filling the prescription. The drug you were provided apparently did not alleviate them and came with that suicidal ideation ala "saw no point in living." Those are instant red flags that you need to switch medication, not cut them entirely.

Your psychiatrist needs to be made aware of these things so they can find something else to give you. Meanwhile, you need to pair that medication with a genuine effort to find hobbies and interests that suit you.
As I and everyone else ITT have explicitly been telling you: it is absolutely critical that you have something good going on in your personal life. That is literally the only way to make being around you anything other than a miserable experience.

I tried all that when I was younger but all it did was make my life more stressful and it all felt like a bunch of chores so I eventually gave up. I just accepted that there really isn't any joy to be had in life and people just do things to pass the time until they die. My parents both said they don't have anything they enjoy but they still seem a hell of a lot happier and more fulfilled so I've always assumed it was the social side of things I lack.

Spoiler: friend of dorothy parker replies

There is no more advice. The problem is your attitude. Until you overhaul that, the advice will not help you any more than it has in the past.

How do I change my attitude and to what? I still force myself to go out and do things and I pretend to not hate my life when I interact IRL, what else do I need to change?

Foolishness. You're assuming something will do x to you when you have no idea.

I haven't said drugs are your salvation, but don't (AGAIN) dismiss what you don't know about.

I spent the majority of my life on anti-depressants and I can't point to a time when the improved MY quality of life. My parents think they helped but that's only because the pills shut me up and left me to suffer silently rather than trying to seek help. I'm sick of taking drugs for the benefit of other people to the detriment of myself.

You've created this situation (the circular thought pattern and fixation). THAT is what is not healthy about you.

What would I even have without this situation though?

And again. Obsession, fixation, whatever. You're choosing to ruin your life by clinging to it.

I have nothing else, if I let go of it then I am living a life of suffering without even a hope of things being able to get better. life is miserable and I can't find joy in much of anything no matter how hard I try

Do you actually understand why your friends repeatedly grow tired of you? You have a "here's why that's not enough" response to everything. And you think it is on everyone else to provide you the magical key to the kingdom.

The key doesn't exist outside your own mind.
It is not other people's jobs to give you instructions.
It is rude to continually badger people around you with the same questions over and over, while simultaneously that what they're saying isn't good enough.
Life doesn't come with instructions. It's on each of us to figure it out.
Everyone would be in your situation if they took your approach/ attitude. Instead, they figure out that it is they who must change - and not in a superficial and fake way by having someone tell them what music to pretend to like.

But all that truth aside, I'll bet a dollar that if someone gave you instructions on how to spend every minute of the next week - down to the minute, doing things you've not done and described in extreme detail (your criteria from above), you would not do it. Agree or disagree?

I have a "here's why that's not enough" response to everything because I've tried all of the common suggestions I get and they have NEVER been enough. All trying to figure out life myself has got me is crippling social anxiety because of a lifetime of negative experiences with few to no positive experiences to weigh them against.

Of course I wouldn't do an entire week schedule that pushes to my limit every minute, that would be insane, it's exhausting enough just forcing myself to go out twice per week for an hour or two at a time, it feels like a huge waste of time and money but I still do it anyway because I've been told to.

You're a grownup now. You don't need training wheels, and you're not entitled to them. You have 2 feet for standing and pedaling. They're right fucking there.

I was never taught how to grow up or have independence, I was raised following my parents orders and most decisions still get made for me, I'm not an agent in my own life because I have no confidence to be.

...and I have now read that you've tried. OK. Try again. Maybe it was a bad fit, or too much or not enough. How long were you on, did you take as prescribed always, and how many adjustments did you have? And make sure the doc knows about your obsessive interests as well.

I think I was on anti-depressants maybe fifteen years? I know I started young and only recently got off, always taken as prescribed however I can't speak to how many adjustments I had due to how long I was on them and the fact that I was on a number of other meds as well, my mom thought everything could be solved with a handful of pills, she thinks they're basically magic and as long as I wasn't actively complaining then everything was fine. Most appointments I just said everything was fine because I wanted to get it over with, wasn't actively suicidal(indifferent about life at worst because things weren't so bad) and I didn't have much point of reference for what normal even is.

But why do you have a psychiatrist if you're not on meds? In the US, anyway, there's hardly any interaction with one that is not meds-related. 99% do not do therapeutic work in any regular sense anymore. May be different where you are

I am still on meds, just not for anti-depression specifically, I still take meds for anxiety for when I go out.

That is the total opposite of what I suggested. I get you don't really do abstraction and figurative language well, but you have enough brain power to realize that I obviously was not suggesting "try staying in your room and playing games online for ages.". Both because that's insane, and because I already literally said that was a bad idea.

I was talking about surrendering your fixed and fixated thoughts - and letting there be space for good things, not numbing out playing with toys.

I just don't understand what I would be doing if I gave up my fixation on getting a woman, it's my main motivation in life so to let go of that would mean letting go of any reason I force myself to endure any sort of hardship.

OK, fair. So drop people like that out of your life. It's cowardly and low character to keep them around if you don't respect them, instead of just cutting ties.

Alright and then what? How do I find a replacement so I can have some kind of peer to talk to?

Speaking of, how often do you laugh? How often do you non-meanly chuckle at some silly habit you have or something dumb you did (which we all have/ do)? How often do you make a light joke at your own expense? Or even non-bitterly laugh when some angry tard on the internet insults you generically (tedious), but then somehow manages finally to land a minor good one? Can you laugh and say, "fair play, nice one," and make nice, or do you seethe?

Asking because if you don't laugh in joy, at funny things, and even at yourself, you have what we could call a very long way to go/ grow/ develop...or what we could call a whole universe of opportunities and ways to have a better life with very painless and plentiful applications.

I'm honestly not sure, it happens occasionally I guess?

 

[Blewberry Nausea]

more fulfilled so I've always assumed it was the social side of things I lack.

I feel you man we are brothers in despair. It was fate that we meet. Do you know why? There is only one solution to our endless sorrow

We can go together.

 

[Butterschmalz]

Politically speaking inceldom is the solution, NOT the problem. Especially the Zoomer incels almost always hit the right target. Might sound cynical but it is what it is.



Luigi might have started it, but others will carry on. The nigger samurai and now even the one Canadian who went against Pornhub.

I am totally aware than inceldom is pain and suffering. But its not a competition you know. Its not a pity party, the one who suffers most wins a price. Suffering itself is not a goal, its what you make out of it. And there is apparently such a potential out there, its unbelievable. One just needs to know how to put it to work. And since nationalsm and patriotism are dead it will be interesting to see whats gonna happen.

 

[Party Hat Wurmple]

I can't think of anything I can do that's more enjoyable that sitting at home on my computer gaming or browsing forums and there isn't much I genuinely want to do this was a problem for me by the time I was in elementary school, hell most of the things I find out about are because my parents bring them up to me as options.

I understand that, but you're going to have REALLY spend some time remembering what you liked to do as a small child. Forget all the negativity. Really take a minute and think back to things you did as a child that you enjoyed or things you wanted to do as a child. I wanted to fish and hence I learned.

Don't reply or give an excuse or answer to this. Just do what I said and think about it. Just follow your memories on this.

I hate going out, spending money, doing things and never having time to relax at home.

You want a girlfriend? This is a mentality you cannot have and you need to take this mentality and beat it to death with a fucking 9-iron. You don't have to spend a lot of money, but you do have to spend time outside and in public. Relaxing at home is the enemy of a social life and you need to learn to hate it with intense vitriol. Why? Because there's no bitches in your home, except you.

Your goal for the day is to make people wonder where you find the time and energy to do the things you do.

I was a preteen

Good, this is what I was telling you to do. Go back in your memory and think, before everything blew up you managed to get in good with her. How? What did you say? What did you talk about? What were you doing? What was your attitude like? Think about these things.

after the first couple texts.

Well, how'd you get to the point where you got them to give you their number? Focus on that.

that guy" was a young child having his life directed by his family

You can't go back to being young you but if you was confident enough to go up and ask a girl x or y, you as an adult should remember that and be like that as an adult.

I kind of have that with a family friend who's been trying to help me out but he's a mid 60s middle easterner

You should spend more time with him.

I'm also desperate enough

It's probably a foregone conclusion that this is what will happen, but you can't be comfortable with it.

I don't have interest in much of anything

Look, your problem boils down to one esoteric principle. You're looking externally for internal solutions. You're THIRY YEARS OLD. Your life was not a cavalcade of failures one after another. You might not see them necessarily as a success, but you now as an adult have a duty to establish yourself as an actual functioning person with a strong identity to meet your goals. If you want to be a person who girls will be attracted to, you need to get a life.

You're too far gone in your depression and learned helplessness bullshit, so now your only answer is a journey of self introspection and reflection on the past and dragging what was positive and what little did work into today to build a healthy daily routine. That's where your answers are. Really think about your memories and things in the past that did work and focus on those.

Staying at home relaxing, staying home and playing video games, and forums, are your enemy. Not your ally. They haven't helped you and they've only made your life worse. They will NEVER get you a girlfriend. This is the last advice I'm going to give you, and unless you have questions, any messages beyond this is going to be me mocking you. Listen and just do what I said or sit in your bullshit and suffer. If you choose to suffer, I'm just going to make fun of you moving forward.

 

[Ughubughughughughughghlug]

The discourse on single men above X age is weird. It's like people have forgotten that there has long been a tradition of men that aren't "asexual," aren't overly off-putting, aren't belligerent and are also very reclusive. Some hermits, some socially-engaged. Sometimes they get cast as being closeted gay which is odd nowadays, since there's no real social cost to being out. Some of these shyfags get married at age 70. I've known people like that.

 

[Duke Nukem]

@The_Cowcel I honestly don't know what to say that's going to make you change your mind or fix your life. I don't necessarily think you're evil or stupid, I just think you need to rethink your approach to certain things.

Might be a slight PL but I don't think anyone in here is a living embodiment of the Chad meme. Plenty of ordinary people have managed to get decent relationships and have sex. Even some autistic virgins ended up not being virgins eventually.

You are destined to end up like Skippy on the path you're going. So either change your ways or quit complaining and accept that no woman on Earth is going to want to be with you.

 

[FieldPiece]

You hate women because because they won't give you attention. I hate women because they have destroyed civilization yet again. We are not the same.

In all seriousness read J.D. Unwins Sex And Culture, it explains clearly why throughout human history the second women gained control over the sexual habits of people they drove society into the abyss. Turns out letting the sex that suffers from getting horny over violent and psychopathic behavior control breeding isn't a good idea.

 

[crazedaze]

I want specific advice

Lies

People just tell me I'm wrong

Because you are wrong

the issues stem from you and the way you're approaching all of your relationships.

just die.

Try downloading Tinder and buying a box of condoms. Do some swiping.

Don't worry about having a relationship right now.

Like a dozen people here have given you specific advice

Wouldn't she take constantly being treated well as a sign of extreme desperation and be driven to cheat because she knows she'll be able to get away with anything because I can't afford to lose her?

You are severely mentally ill. The issue is that you need to not be mentally ill. You're welcome.

 

[Friend of Dorothy Parker]

What would I even have without this situation though?

I have nothing else, if I let go of it then I am living a life of suffering without even a hope of things being able to get better. life is miserable and I can't find joy in much of anything no matter how hard I try

I just don't understand what I would be doing if I gave up my fixation on getting a woman, it's my main motivation in life so to let go of that would mean letting go of any reason I force myself to endure any sort of hardship.

Misery and eternal wanting is not meaning in life. Making it your primary purpose or thinking it's the only thing you have is just ensuring it's going to continue to rule you.

Of course I wouldn't do an entire week schedule that pushes to my limit every minute, that would be insane, it's exhausting enough just forcing myself to go out twice per week for an hour or two at a time, it feels like a huge waste of time and money but I still do it anyway because I've been told to.

I said nothing about pushing yourself to the limit every minute. I mentioned "minutes" bc you said that people don't give you enough detail about what to do. You also maintain that you have "tried everything" and nothing "works.". I'm suggesting that your narrow view of what constitutes "working" has set up a situation where nothing will work, because it doesn't get you immediately to the thing you've made your fixation. I'm suggesting that maybe that fixation-thing isn't of a nature, at least at this point, to be a 1-2-3 goal. So when I mentioned taking a week's detailed advice and following it - with an open mind that sets aside "hmm, hmm, I am not immediately at my goal so therefore this does not work" and instead says, "ok, let me do those things and see if I feel the slightest bit better after a week, even if I don't see the connection between this and my goal."

A lot of times people think they have figured out exactly what is needed but they don't realize that they have misunderstood what they need or don't comprehend that sometimes you need to shore up a bunch of things before they can even think about the thing they think is the Holy Grail. And they fail to understand that by doing that they are missing opportunities to find additional, more positive goals, meet them...and maybe find out either the thing they thought was everything is less important or even that that thing comes to them organically while they've been focusing on other things.

I was never taught how to grow up or have independence, I was raised following my parents orders and most decisions still get made for me, I'm not an agent in my own life because I have no confidence to be.

Why are decisions being made for you, an adult?

And regardless of whether you had overbearing parents (or negligent ones, or whatever), as an adult you have to find your own way. Which may include developing things in yourself that your parents didn't teach you. There may be things to sort out from an unideal upbringing, but to develop fully as a human being, you can't lean on that as an excuse forever. At least, you can't if you ever want to thrive.

And along with cognitive therapy, there is DBT or even basic talk therapy that can help people sort through the complex feelings about upbringing/ parents or boundaries that people may feel as a hangover from that upbringing or is a barrier to feeling and being powerful in their own lives.

I think I was on anti-depressants maybe fifteen years? I know I started young and only recently got off, always taken as prescribed however I can't speak to how many adjustments I had due to how long I was on them and the fact that I was on a number of other meds as well, my mom thought everything could be solved with a handful of pills, she thinks they're basically magic and as long as I wasn't actively complaining then everything was fine. Most appointments I just said everything was fine because I wanted to get it over with, wasn't actively suicidal(indifferent about life at worst because things weren't so bad) and I didn't have much point of reference for what normal even is.

OK, that's rough. But what if you didn't (now) say that everything was fine so you could get it over with?

I am still on meds, just not for anti-depression specifically, I still take meds for anxiety for when I go out.

Maybe something that is daily rather than just "as needed" or situation-specific would be useful.

Alright and then what? How do I find a replacement so I can have some kind of peer to talk to?

Start with things you can control, rather than at the distant endpoint/ goal. Got a ratty friend? Clear that garbage from your life. Don't bundle it up with "oh, but then, and then, and then"; just one thing at a time.

Sometimes crummy relationships - with people, substances, even food or vudya or whatever - are a maladaptive crutch. Sure, they're harming me, but the unknown is scary and all kinds of bad things might happen, so better to hang on to a known trouble than risk the unknown. That's a very real and understandable fear/ concern. And that's where having other little (or not so little) things to fill that gap or give you some solid ground can help reduce the fear of having nothing at all.

I think @Party Hat Wurmple (may have been someone else, apologies is I am misremembering) said something about thinking back to things you liked as a kid. Maybe you didn't get to do it much but something you liked. Not games, not girls. Something or somewhere that was nice for you, even if you were lonely even while doing it (put aside any other emotional swirl happening around the same time). Or maybe something you wished you could do more, even if parents or school or whatever didn't allow or support it. Anything? Or if not, anything that has ever sounded intriguing or interesting, whether you ever did it or not? That would maybe be a place to start to try to bring something else into your life. Don't tell me that collecting stamps or jumping as high as you could or a walk by a river or reading the encyclopedia doesn't solve your critical problem. I know it doesn't, and I'm not saying it will get you a girl. I'm asking a specific question about things unrelated.

 

[pro drivor]

all you guys who are wasting time outta your day to dogpile this dude for schadenfreude points are like 10x more autistic than he is

 

[Friend of Dorothy Parker]

Sorry to double post but I just read your reply to @Party Hat Wurmple , particularly this:

don't have interest in much of anything that involves going out, most of my non-gym outings are the family friend dragging me along to somewhere I have less than zero interest in going

Dude, fuck. Make yourself interested. I can tell you have a running commentary in your brain most of the time already, so make that voice into a cheerleader. Jesus.

just so we can sit around while he lectures me about how I need to be more outgoing and contribute more to conversations

And do you?

despite having already heard this same lecture a dozen times and having nothing left to add to the conversation because I've already been through this lesson a number of times with him.

You want help, and then you dismiss the help bc you've heard it all before (and yet you still don't participate in the conversation and apparently refuse to take an interest in other people). Everyone sees what's happening but you.

It's either that or just deciding to follow along with my parents when they're doing something in which case I just follow them around until it's time to go home.

That's dumb. Why?

I've been told to try going to bars and restaurants alone but I rarely see young women besides the employees and once I get my dating site swiping out of the way I'm basically just left sitting around wishing I was home.

Lol, you go out and spend your time on your phone then go home, resting on confirmation that going out is pointless.

What exactly do you think is going to happen socially when you're on your phone? Or when someone drags you out and you refuse to engage in - or God forbid imitate and drive - conversation.

"ChatGPT, I'm an anxious person with low hope of happiness. My cousin is making me go to a picnic. He's always telling me to have conversations with people, but I don't. I mostly ignore the life around me, and sure enough, nothing good ever comes of going out. How can I make the world be different?"

Even AI will call out the fallaciousness of this thought-pattern. But if you ask it, it could suggest ways to ease into being more participatory in life and even give you a play-by-play for various scenarios or how to find opportunities to engage. But pro tip: your prompt needs to tell it to challenge you.

 

[ScarletDevil]

"I don't need to be turned into a drugged up zombie, I am already self medicating with 200$ of booze per a week, it's a much easier method of becoming a zombie."

It's funny how it's always the people most in need of meds that insist they're poison