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DC Comics Multimedia General - A crisis of infinite fuck ups
I think dark and serious can work around Superman. He can, and has fought abusive fathers for example. He can right a realistic evil corrupt executives ( Lex).
He can and has dealt with serious issues like suicide, and racism.
And he has done it without becoming an edge Lord. He can deal with dark issues so long as he keeps being that farm boy from Kansas that just wants to do good.
Because that was literally what critics and normies told them. If I asked my parents about DC, they would ask why it is so dark and not funny like Marvel. This was the common sentiment during Zack’s reign and why Warner booted him and tried to MCU the universe.
As for why normies felt it, Zack’s shit was too long and overly complicated to follow. He tried to hard to be super smart with shit like Granny’s Peach Tea or the random Bible analogues. Not helping was how painfully stupid a good chunk of the plot was, best example being the nothingburger of Lois tracking down bullets in BvS.
The realistic tone clashed with the big spectacle action hard, making the fights lack a certain umph…
Man of Steel really suffers in its last battle from going way too big to a comical degree while not feeling like anything of substance has happened. Zack wants a big anime, DBZ smack-down but without the visual colors and general fun that brings. The miserable, 9/11 look only highlights how disastrous Superman is, and played a big part into why MoS’s destruction kept getting brought up even if the shattering of buildings is on par with the DCAU.
Finally, the mischaracterizations really bugged people. Batman killing was a huge point of contention, and before I hear about Burton, might I remind you those films came before the no kill rule was widely established in mainstream canon through Nolan and the cartoons. It is hard to walk back on 20-30 years of the rule now in play thanks to BTAS and Nolan being people’s defaults.
Superman lacking any fun was to his detriment and only solidified him further as a boring character. Cavil is good, but the script gives him nothing. He just sort-of looks stoic.
Maybe saying they were too dark is too general, but I get the sentiment. His films lacked a lot and felt too try hard without ever really getting to the point. Audiences just wanted the characters to lighten up a bit and not feel like they needed an hours long dissection of the plot to understand what was happening.
Superman's story should never be about him struggling to understand his identity and place in the world. Ever. He's an American farmboy who moved to the Big City because he loves to do good and help people. He has no qualms or conflicts about that at all.
The Christopher Reeve movie got it right, everyone else is flailing in flubbery.
Maybe saying they were too dark is too general, but I get the sentiment. His films lacked a lot and felt too try hard without ever really getting to the point. Audiences just wanted the characters to lighten up a bit and not feel like they needed an hours long dissection of the plot to understand what was happening.
I would make a distinction. I don't buy "too dark" being an issue in the sense that superheroes can't touch dark and serious themes. Or that Snyder failed because he was too brave, adult, and mature.
All the Nolan movies worked fine without Whedon quips
Superman saving a suicidal girl like he did on All-star is a serious moment that deals with something very dark issue that would be ruined with quips and Marvel humor.
But if "Too dark" means the characters were too far from their roots, devoid of the joy and optimism they were known for, then yes I agree being "Too dark" was the biggest issue.
Superman's story should never be about him struggling to understand his identity and place in the world. Ever. He's an American farmboy who moved to the Big City because he loves to do good and help people. He has no qualms or conflicts about that at all.
The Christopher Reeve movie got it right, everyone else is flailing in flubbery.
I like when Superman is smug and genuinely enjoys fucking with criminals.
Reeve got that perfectly. Clark is the biggest good guy ever but has a troll mentality and isn’t just gonna foil your crime but he’s gonna make it so humiliating that you’re never gonna live it down. Inexorably based that he extends this to gaslighting Lois into insanity.
Gunn Superman really failed here, Snyder Supes too actually. Superman would just troll the people heckling him.
Even “Secret Identity” Superman, the most low-key version of the character was an apex troll, putting comic books in secret files within the Pentagon and swapping missiles from a ship in the Pacific with one in the Atlantic.
I like when Superman is smug and genuinely enjoys fucking with criminals.
Reeve got that perfectly. Clark is the biggest good guy ever but has a troll mentality and isn’t just gonna foil your crime but he’s gonna make it so humiliating that you’re never gonna live it down. Inexorably based that he extends this to gaslighting Lois into insanity.
Gunn Superman really failed here, Snyder Supes too actually. Superman would just troll the people heckling him.
Even “Secret Identity” Superman, the most low-key version of the character was an apex troll, putting comic books in secret files within the Pentagon and swapping missiles from a ship in the Pacific with one in the Atlantic.
I like when Superman is smug and genuinely enjoys fucking with criminals.
Reeve got that perfectly. Clark is the biggest good guy ever but has a troll mentality and isn’t just gonna foil your crime but he’s gonna make it so humiliating that you’re never gonna live it down. Inexorably based that he extends this to gaslighting Lois into insanity.
Gunn Superman really failed here, Snyder Supes too actually. Superman would just troll the people heckling him.
Even “Secret Identity” Superman, the most low-key version of the character was an apex troll, putting comic books in secret files within the Pentagon and swapping missiles from a ship in the Pacific with one in the Atlantic.
yeah this is the big thing, at the end of the day "Clark" puts his feet up on the desk and goes "oh well gosh Lois, guess you were there for everything _Superman_ did. I'll leave that hard work up to you"
I would make a distinction. I don't buy "too dark" being an issue in the sense that superheroes can't touch dark and serious themes. Or that Snyder failed because he was too brave, adult, and mature.
Superman never had issue with dark issues. If anything, they can be cathartic. Snyder made a despair filled series of movies for him. He broke him but did not put him back together. Also, there is a certain level of immaturity in thinking that dark/depressed = mature. If you feel despair after a Superman story, it wasn't one.
Superman saving a suicidal girl like he did on All-star is a serious moment that deals with something very dark issue that would be ruined with quips and Marvel humor.
Yes but he also lived. He was dying but he still remained hopeful and spend his last days well. That is the difference. He wasn't grumpy. Snyderverse had him depressed and he wasn't even dying.
But if "Too dark" means the characters were too far from their roots, devoid of the joy and optimism they were known for, then yes I agree being "Too dark" was the biggest issue.
That is what everyone was saying. We like heroes tackling serious subjects but certain characters are known for a specific tone and that isn't grimdark.
I like when Superman is smug and genuinely enjoys fucking with criminals.
Reeve got that perfectly. Clark is the biggest good guy ever but has a troll mentality and isn’t just gonna foil your crime but he’s gonna make it so humiliating that you’re never gonna live it down. Inexorably based that he extends this to gaslighting Lois into insanity.
Gunn Superman really failed here, Snyder Supes too actually. Superman would just troll the people heckling him.
Even “Secret Identity” Superman, the most low-key version of the character was an apex troll, putting comic books in secret files within the Pentagon and swapping missiles from a ship in the Pacific with one in the Atlantic.
Superman is not above us. He is the best of us. He is not above trolling, having fun, watching his favorite tv show, having a party, playing video games or flirting. He saves the world but he is also very human. Snyder took things too seriously. He had him buy his own hype and find only sadness inside.
I honestly never thought of it that way, but you are completely right. He does have a troll side.
It explains why this to me is my favorite Joker Vs Superman interaction
Usually Batman fans write Joker owning Superman ( see Injustice). But I think it would be the opposite. He would troll Joker and make him regret messing with him.
Superman never had issue with dark issues. If anything, they can be cathartic. Snyder made a despair filled series of movies for him. He broke him but did not put him back together. Also, there is a certain level of immaturity in thinking that dark/depressed = mature. If you feel despair after a Superman story, it wasn't one.
I see you made a lot of points, but no need to reply to all. We actually agree on everything. I will just clarify that I associate Whedon quips with Bathos, but there's nothing wrong with having humor either.
Usually Batman fans write Joker as owning Superman ( see Injustice). But I think it would be the opposite. He would troll Joker and make him regret messing with him.
I mean, with Injustice, you have to contrive shit hard to let Joker get the drop on Clark, to the point where I can't even think of many interactions between the two, because barring certain exceptions, Clark would take him down in mere moments with no real struggle.
For a darker Superman though, one that I think works well was from the old Superman cartoon, in the ep. Brave New Metropolis, where Clark does the whole become a dictator thing because Lois died, but what I liked about the episode, was despite taking heavier mesures, he still seems relatively tame, and while he works with Luthor, its because he's under the impression that Lex is smart enough not to try anything, and turns against him the second he realizes Lex is backstabbing him. For me, its probably the only "evil" Superman that I particularly enjoyed and he ends the episode returned to the side of the angels.
Also he makes out with Lois before mainstream Clark ever does, which is kind of weird but whatever.
Alternate Superman: For too long I fooled myself into thinking I was just doing a simple clean-up job. And if I did enough good, people would follow my example. I didn't realize it was a war. And suddenly you were a casualty of that war. And I knew I had to stop it by whatever means possible.
Alternate Superman: I never thought I'd lose you... twice. Lois: Will it change anything? Alternate Superman: For me, but not for Metropolis. Not this time.
It's just 2010 leftistslop about how being nice to muslim immigrants brought here by the government and funded by the system is true anarchy. The entirety of anarchism, punkness has been overrun with suburban white kids who's only rebellion is to their parents.
I honestly never thought of it that way, but you are completely right. He does have a troll side.
It explains why this to me is my favorite Joker Vs Superman interaction
https://youtube.com/watch?v=1Ucag--u6oEUsually Batman fans write Joker owning Superman ( see Injustice). But I think it would be the opposite. He would troll Joker and make him regret messing with him.
I see you made a lot of points, but no need to reply to all. We actually agree on everything. I will just clarify that I associate Whedon quips with Bathos, but there's nothing wrong with having humor either.
I reply when I feel I have something to say. Breaking to each point makes it easier. As for Whedon's quips, it depends on the team dynamic and tone of the movie. It works for the Avengers. It doesn't work with JL unless Wally West or someone similar is involved.
I mean, with Injustice, you have to contrive shit hard to let Joker get the drop on Clark, to the point where I can't even think of many interactions between the two, because barring certain exceptions, Clark would take him down in mere moments with no real struggle.
For a darker Superman though, one that I think works well was from the old Superman cartoon, in the ep. Brave New Metropolis, where Clark does the whole become a dictator thing because Lois died, but what I liked about the episode, was despite taking heavier mesures, he still seems relatively tame, and while he works with Luthor, its because he's under the impression that Lex is smart enough not to try anything, and turns against him the second he realizes Lex is backstabbing him. For me, its probably the only "evil" Superman that I particularly enjoyed and he ends the episode returned to the side of the angels.
Also he makes out with Lois before mainstream Clark ever does, which is kind of weird but whatever.
