Christian theology thread for Christians - Deus homo factus est naturam erante, mundus renovatus est a Christo regnante

[harbringer883]

My fellow Kiwi Kristians, I have asked a similar question in the Kathedral already, but where do you all think that the future of Christianity is headed worldwide?

I think we will see a resurgence soon enough, christ be willing.

 

[Preacher ✝]

The Wisdom of Bl. Fulton Sheen

Day 223 - There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church, but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.

 

[marlimar]

A good practicing Christian goes to church.

The bible does not say this, only how to mediate the inevitable drama that is to be found within the church walls. The bride of Christ as "the church" includes all believers, Catholic, Baptist or Messianic Jew, it makes no difference to God whether you follow his commands at church or living on the side of the street... don't gatekeep religion. The gospel references to "the church" is almost always admonishing them for gossiping and dissenting amongst the church members and backsliding against what really matters: belief in the birth, death and resurrection of Christ Jesus.

I'm not trying to imply that going to church is bad or has nothing good to offer, just that it's not a condition of being any a "good" Christian, we all have fallen short of the Glory of God and Christ alone did all of the required work for salvation, lest any man boast of his works being meritorious apart from what was accomplished in Christ Jesus.

 

[rapecel]

simul iustus et peccator is true

 

[Mad_Dog]

The bible does not say this, only how to mediate the inevitable drama that is to be found within the church walls. The bride of Christ as "the church" includes all believers, Catholic, Baptist or Messianic Jew, it makes no difference to God whether you follow his commands at church or living on the side of the street... don't gatekeep religion. The gospel references to "the church" is almost always admonishing them for gossiping and dissenting amongst the church members and backsliding against what really matters: belief in the birth, death and resurrection of Christ Jesus.

I'm not trying to imply that going to church is bad or has nothing good to offer, just that it's not a condition of being any a "good" Christian, we all have fallen short of the Glory of God and Christ alone did all of the required work for salvation, lest any man boast of his works being meritorious apart from what was accomplished in Christ Jesus.

The Church came before the Bible. How do you think the Early Christians and all Christians after them, up until having a Bible at home was affordable, practiced their faith? "Not going to church" is a modern invention, and wasn't even an option up until at most ~150 years ago.

 

[BIG SHOT Autos]

You don't have to attend church to be a good practicing Christian

A good practicing Christian goes to church.

So far I'm getting an impression that it's something inbetween. Seeing it as a compulsory activity that one must do no matter what is literally a form of OCD. And you're right, it's not mandatory for the salvation on itself. However, if you have an opportunity to do so, then you should attend, because generally it's highly encouraged to gather together and it helps growing spiritually. Bed-ridden people usually can't do that, and life often times happens too, that's fine to skip for whatever reason, but spiritual benefits of gathering are very clear and skipping too much has negative effect. It's like brushing teeth or whatever other healthy habit, it's not the end of the world if you skip or brush just once a day (especially if you do it thoroughly), but quitting altogether may ultimately result in a painful and gross death from all sorts of health complications. So, uh, avoiding church has a great chance of resulting into a spiritual equivalent of parodontitis and bone rot.


Speaking of gathering, it's kind of devastating how hard it is to find friends, especially ones that are somewhat similar to you but also fundamentally look in the right direction. Overwhelming majority of people that I used to talk to either excplicitly like me less now even with basically zero attempts at spreading the faith, I don't even talk to them about it. As expected, I guess.

 

[Mad_Dog]

So far I'm getting an impression that it's something inbetween. Seeing it as a compulsory activity that one must do no matter what is literally a form of OCD. And you're right, it's not mandatory for the salvation on itself. However, if you have an opportunity to do so, then you should attend, because generally it's highly encouraged to gather together and it helps growing spiritually. Bed-ridden people usually can't do that, and life often times happens too, that's fine to skip for whatever reason, but spiritual benefits of gathering are very clear and skipping too much has negative effect. It's like brushing teeth or whatever other healthy habit, it's not the end of the world if you skip or brush just once a day (especially if you do it thoroughly), but quitting altogether may ultimately result in a painful and gross death from all sorts of health complications. So, uh, avoiding church has a great chance of resulting into a spiritual equivalent of parodontitis and bone rot.


Speaking of gathering, it's kind of devastating how hard it is to find friends, especially ones that are somewhat similar to you but also fundamentally look in the right direction. Overwhelming majority of people that I used to talk to either excplicitly like me less now even with basically zero attempts at spreading the faith, I don't even talk to them about it. As expected, I guess.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church on the Third Commandment: "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy."

The Sunday celebration of the Lord's Day and his Eucharist is at the heart of the Church's life. "Sunday is the day on which the paschal mystery is celebrated in light of the apostolic tradition and is to be observed as the foremost holy day of obligation in the universal Church." — CCC 2177

This practice of the Christian assembly dates from the beginnings of the apostolic age. The Letter to the Hebrews reminds the faithful "not to neglect to meet together, as is the habit of some, but to encourage one another." (Heb 10:25.)

Spoiler: Read more

Tradition preserves the memory of an ever-timely exhortation: Come to Church early, approach the Lord, and confess your sins, repent in prayer. ... Be present at the sacred and divine liturgy, conclude its prayer and do not leave before the dismissal. ... We have often said: "This day is given to you for prayer and rest. This is the day that the Lord has made, let us rejoice and be glad in it." (Sermo de die dominica 2 et 68 G 86/1,416C and 421C.)

— CCC 2178

"On Sundays and other holy days of obligation the faithful are bound to participate in the Mass." — CCC 2180

For this reason the faithful are obliged to participate in the Eucharist on days of obligation, unless excused for a serious reason (for example, illness, the care of infants) or dispensed by their own pastor. Those who deliberately fail in this obligation commit a grave sin. — CCC 2181

 

[Cassius Crayfish]

Meeting together with fellow believers is a good habit in the process of becoming a disciple, as it is throw interacting with fellow-believers that the Spirit does his work of encouraging, teaching, admonishing and building us into the body of Christ.

But it is not salvific obligation. It is simply that something with the Spirit in them should be yearning for. If it were more than that, it would rate more than one particular verse of Scripture emphasising it. If it were less than that, it wouldn't crop up at all. But it is evidently a significant part of a Christian's journey, and should ideally be a shadow of the new creation.

 

[marlimar]

Meeting together with fellow believers is a good habit in the process of becoming a disciple, as it is throw interacting with fellow-believers that the Spirit does his work of encouraging, teaching, admonishing and building us into the body of Christ.

But it is not salvific obligation. It is simply that something with the Spirit in them should be yearning for. If it were more than that, it would rate more than one particular verse of Scripture emphasising it. If it were less than that, it wouldn't crop up at all. But it is evidently a significant part of a Christian's journey, and should ideally be a shadow of the new creation.

My broader point is that if you find a particular church heretical, you should stop going to that church and find a different one; you should not stop reading and meditating on the scripture in the mean time. The same as we are meant to have a personal 1 on 1 relationship with Christ Jesus every moment of every day, looking to him for guidance and to meet our needs first, not as a last resort; church should be happening in your heart daily, not just "reserved" for a certain day because some guy in a big hat in Italy said so.

Conflicts are bound to happen between interpretations and dialogue to resolve those conflicts is a crucial function of a church congregation: to edify each other. Mysteries are reserved for God to know, we can debate what has been revealed to us in the scripture, nothing wrong with that, as long as we keep Christ as the center, not trying to elevate our own opinions or stances without regards to the truth.

 

[Derrick]

but where do you all think that the future of Christianity is headed worldwide?

I think we will see a resurgence soon enough, christ be willing.

Due to Birth rates in the global south as compared to the more irreligious north Christianity should increase slightly over the next century.

Per Pew Research

I'm not trying to imply that going to church is bad or has nothing good to offer, just that it's not a condition of being any a "good" Christian, we all have fallen short of the Glory of God and Christ alone did all of the required work for salvation, lest any man boast of his works being meritorious apart from what was accomplished in Christ Jesus.

Setting foot inside a Church may not be a prescribed requirement for salvation per se, but as a former missionary in China I'm sure you're aware there are people today in China, North Korea, and many other places who are risking arrest and imprisonment to go to Church.

The way I see it, if they can risk prison or (in some extremist Islamic nations) even death to go to Church than we really don't have any excuse.

 

[23iwakura23]

My fellow Kiwi Kristians, I have asked a similar question in the Kathedral already, but where do you all think that the future of Christianity is headed worldwide?

It's hard to say, and I don't know enough about the goings on in asia and africa to be able to think about the future of worldwide christianity.

The things I can predict:

- Liberal mainline protestantism in the US fails to be organizationally viable by the end of the 2030s. Endowment money coming from the boomers will dry up once their estates start getting carved up as they die off more and more. The mainline has already been in rapid decline since the 70s, but without the boomer money existing anymore, they'll go from the contraction we've been seeing to total collapse as viable organizations. We may see an end stage of this where many of these churches that are in altar and pulpit fellowship finally collapse into a singular organization, before finally running out of money and having to sell off all assets.
- religious "nones" plateau by mid century and start declining as time wears on due to acceptance of antinatal practices among the irreligious
- the conservative mainline (like LCMS, NALC, ACNA) slowly dwindles out by the 2050s. it's members either being attracted to evangelicalism or catholicism.
- The evangelical megachurch movement causes problems for itself by over-consolidating smaller churches, leading to a situation of organizational brittleness. A handful of scandals are used by inimicable organizations to cause large, over-consolidated megachurch orgs to bankrupt and die. This leads to a resurgence of very small, very ideologically diverse evangelical churches by the 2050s or 2060s.
- Catholicism becomes the 21st century "mainline" by the 2040s. Not in that it is liberal or heretical, but in that it has wide appeal and becomes the default mode of religious thought in the US.
- Zoomer tradcaths, coming into the church in an unbalanced number to women, end up causing a US vocations boom, with lonely zoomer men swining towards clerical and religious vocations. Meanwhile, millenial tradcaths brought their wives in with them and cause a laity boom with gen alpha. This is how the above line item occurs. A concomitant laity boom may happen for the evangelicals, but without a place to put "lonely men", evangelicalism doesn't see the same vocations boom.
- MENA orthodoxy and catholicism make overtures for unionism due to the instability and oppressive character of the region against the christian faith, with mostly the non-chalcedonians wanting to stay away from union in order to preseve their historical character.

 

[Derrick]

- the conservative mainline (like LCMS, NALC, ACNA) slowly dwindles out by the 2050s. it's members either being attracted to evangelicalism or catholicism.
- The evangelical megachurch movement causes problems for itself by over-consolidating smaller churches, leading to a situation of organizational brittleness. A handful of scandals are used by inimicable organizations to cause large, over-consolidated megachurch orgs to bankrupt and die. This leads to a resurgence of very small, very ideologically diverse evangelical churches by the 2050s or 2060s.
- Catholicism becomes the 21st century "mainline" by the 2040s. Not in that it is liberal or heretical, but in that it has wide appeal and becomes the default mode of religious thought in the US.

At over a billion people Roman Catholicism is too big to ever die out. However there are a few problems with your projection.

Recent trends in Latin American (which about a hundred years ago was wholly Catholic) suggest people have been switching from Catholic to Protestant (as opposed to the other way around). In Honduras and El Salvador for example Roman Catholics are no longer the plurality.

The reason for this change is that, on the whole, Protestants engage in a much higher rates of missionary/evangelizing work than Catholics do.

Additionally the other way to increase your population size (fertility rates) are equal between Evangelicals and Catholics.


The only avenue I can see for the spread of Catholicism is immigration, although what effect this will have is probably minimal, most immigrants to Europe for example are either protestants from Sub-Saharan African or Muslims from the Middle East/N. Africa. You can see the effect this is having with some Churches in traditionally protestant Western European nations (Denmark, England, the Netherlands) offering mass in Polish to appeal to this new demographic from Eastern Europe. Of course even if you transplanted the entire population of Poland into Great Britain it would only bump Catholicism to just over half the nation. American Catholics may have once hoped migrations from south of the border might turn their nation Catholic, though because of trends I alluded to above these new migrants seem to be trending largely Protestant.

We may see an end stage of this where many of these churches that are in altar and pulpit fellowship finally collapse into a singular organization,

You're right about this. And this was something that someone recently pointed out to me, which really surprised me. 80 years ago a devout Methodist minister and a devout PCUSA minister would have gotten into an argument over Arminianism vs Calvinism. Now you have PCUSA/ELCA/Episcopal Church/UMC either sharing ministers with each other or about to share ministers with each other. It makes you wonder what (if anything) the Mainline actually believes in (outside of keeping the lights on).

 

[Hulkster]

I have a question: is soul sleep correct? The topic of soul sleep and annihilationism greatly interests me, but is there a strong biblical case for it? Let me know, fellow Christian Kiwis.

 

[Divine Power]

I have a question: is soul sleep correct? The topic of soul sleep and annihilationism greatly interests me, but is there a strong biblical case for it? Let me know, fellow Christian Kiwis.

Soul sleep

John 11:11-14: Jesus tells his disciples, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up." When they misunderstand, he clarifies, "Lazarus is dead."

Immortality

Romans 2:7: God will give "eternal life to those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality."

 

[23iwakura23]

Soul sleep

John 11:11-14: Jesus tells his disciples, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up." When they misunderstand, he clarifies, "Lazarus is dead."

Immortality

Romans 2:7: God will give "eternal life to those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality."

Give clarity, for in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, both the rich man and Lazarus (whether this be that Lazarus, or some figure) experienced a conscious afterlife.

No quarter should be given on particular nor final judgement. That sort of thinking is to the sadduccees, who by josephus were said to be like dogs, not fearing the judgement of God, and thus in such a manner behaved towards their fellow men.

 

[Cassius Crayfish]

I have a question: is soul sleep correct? The topic of soul sleep and annihilationism greatly interests me, but is there a strong biblical case for it? Let me know, fellow Christian Kiwis.

There is no strong case for it, brother! Soul sleep tends to be argued for on the basis of verses that talk about someone having "fallen asleep", dude! But the problem with that, Jack, is that the thing that is asleep is their body, not their soul!

 

[Preacher ✝]

The Wisdom of Bl. Fulton Sheen

Day 224 - Books are the most wonderful friends in the world. When you meet them and pick them up, they are always ready to give you a few ideas. When you put them down, they never get mad; when you take them up again, they seem to enrich you all the more.

 

[Divine Power]

 

[Froggy Fresh Sextape]

Liberal mainline protestantism in the US fails to be organizationally viable by the end of the 2030s. Endowment money coming from the boomers will dry up once their estates start getting carved up as they die off more and more. The mainline has already been in rapid decline since the 70s, but without the boomer money existing anymore, they'll go from the contraction we've been seeing to total collapse as viable organizations. We may see an end stage of this where many of these churches that are in altar and pulpit fellowship finally collapse into a singular organization, before finally running out of money and having to sell off all assets.

PCUSA, at least, owns all the land the churches are on. They have a very healthy investment fund. It won't be financial constraints that kill them off, it'll be the congregants literally dying off. Mainlines have a big demographic crisis going on right now.

Megachurches are the only ones not going through a demographic crisis since they heavily target young singles and young families. There are a lot of millenial parents who are relatively irreligious but want to raise their kids in church. Most of those are going to stop going once their kids grow up, though, and that could lead to a financial crunch for megachurches.

(also as a side note I find it extremely weird how megachurches have this wink wink nudge nudge it's good for small business networking thing going on)

 

[Venial Sneeds]

I have a question: is soul sleep correct? The topic of soul sleep and annihilationism greatly interests me, but is there a strong biblical case for it? Let me know, fellow Christian Kiwis.

CCC 1021–1022:
“Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death.

This implies conscious existence right after death, not unconscious “sleep.”

CCC 1035:
“The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, ‘eternal fire.’”

The “eternal” aspect means the person is not destroyed but continues to exist apart from God.