Bible Study - From a non-religious kiwi

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That's why I as a Christian am always cautious about Biblical sources. For one I don't believe the Bible was intended to be taken as literal scientific fact on every single thing it talks about, and likewise there've been so many intentional and unintentional mistranslations, modifications, and retcons. You've got to take many translations into account to piece together a whole picture, still taking it with a grain of salt that the book was written by men, even if inspired by God. Not that there's no truth to it, but I don't believe everything is objectively 100% true because in my view that'd be putting a lot of hubris on the authors to not have the same failings as any other of God's creations, whether He gave them wisdom when they wrote it or not. My two cents anyway.
I wholly agree with this. You can say most of it is an allegory of faith, rather than just simply true events. This reminds me of a Chinese Tao saying from Laozi:

"Tao that can be spoken is not the real Tao."

I see it the same way with the Bible. How can you be sure the wisdom of human writers are the same wisdom from God? I'm not trying to sound like a heretic, but it's not a bad idea to differentiate between the ideals of God and the shackled insecurities of man.
 
I am trying to get back into my bible studies and figured I'd pop in and say hey. I noticed up thread it sounded like there was maybe a plan to read Genesis this month? I'd like to join group reading if y'all are doing that.
That was a while ago and nothing ever came from it anyway. I think there just aren't enough regular posters on the thread for it catch on. That said, if we could get something going I'm certainly in. Maybe I'll
write something later on the weekly Torah portion - this week is Exodus 21-24, which is very interesting. For now I'll leave it at this (23:20-21):
Behold, I am going to send an angel before you to guard you along the way and to bring you into the place which I have prepared. Be attentive to him and obey his voice; do not be rebellious toward him, for he will not pardon your rebellion, since My name is in him.
Needless to say, there is a great deal of discussion over the meaning of the passage. Is the angel Moses? God's presence? An actual angel? The second person of the Trinity (for Christians)? Admittedly, this is a speculative theory, but I believe that this passage may be connected with Joshua in some way - he is the only figure in the Torah, aside from Jochebed the mother of Moses, to have a theophoric name based on YHWH (ones using El are very common). Special mention of this is noted in Numbers 13:16, and of course he is the one who eventually leads the Israelites into the promised land. There is also Deuteronomy 31:1-3:
So Moses went and spoke these words to all Israel. And he said to them, “I am a hundred and twenty years old today; I am no longer able to come and go, and the LORD has said to me, ‘You shall not cross this Jordan.’ “It is the LORD your God who will cross ahead of you; He will destroy these nations before you, and you shall dispossess them. Joshua is the one who will cross ahead of you, just as the LORD has spoken.
Who is going ahead of the Israelites - God or Joshua?
I wholly agree with this. You can say most of it is an allegory of faith, rather than just simply true events. This reminds me of a Chinese Tao saying from Laozi:

"Tao that can be spoken is not the real Tao."

I see it the same way with the Bible. How can you be sure the wisdom of human writers are the same wisdom from God? I'm not trying to sound like a heretic, but it's not a bad idea to differentiate between the ideals of God and the shackled insecurities of man.
I believe the Bible is, as the Catholics put it, "the words of God in the language of men" (there is also a similar Jewish saying). You can never be entirely sure of anything in life - men can be fallible but I think that you can still believe there is something greater behind it.
 
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I believe the Bible is, as the Catholics put it, "the words of God in the language of men" (there is also a similar Jewish saying). You can never be entirely sure of anything in life - men can be fallible but I think that you can still believe there is something greater behind it.
Yeah exactly! Despite the flaws (in our modern lenses), there is still a lot to respect. Even an irreligious person can find solace in the more timeless texts.
 
I wholly agree with this. You can say most of it is an allegory of faith, rather than just simply true events. This reminds me of a Chinese Tao saying from Laozi:

"Tao that can be spoken is not the real Tao."

I see it the same way with the Bible. How can you be sure the wisdom of human writers are the same wisdom from God? I'm not trying to sound like a heretic, but it's not a bad idea to differentiate between the ideals of God and the shackled insecurities of man.
I've been listening to JP's Bible series lately, and a lot of it clicks when you think about it. Even if what's told is allegorical, primarily in the Old Testament, there's underlying psychological truth there in what it's saying, and what it's saying is, in my opinion, too deep and interwoven to just be passed off as superstition. Even if you don't follow the metaphysical aspect, if you're irreligious or atheistic, there's something there that touches on the human psyche and nature with shocking accuracy, and it's something people can learn from.
 
KJV Only is unfortunately a key issue, due to linguistic, historical and theological problems. Right off the bat, I will dismiss folks like Ruckmann, Jack Chick, Kent Hovind and Gail Riplinger. These people and those like them are lunatics and massive hypocrites fishing for clout and profit. Avoid them like the plague if you can.

The website scionofzion.com and the King James Bible Research Council are good sources, though obviously not perfect. Present day 'Bible science' has an absolutely insane story behind it, and the corruption surrounding it is worse than anything KF or ED has ever seen.
I remember that time when Kent said that since the KJV was used by Paul and it was good enough for him, then it should be good enough for anybody or some shit.
Reminded me about Islamic theological history where the Virgin Mary is Moses' cousin or niece because Mary's dad's name appears somewhere in the Pentateuch.
Gangster tier scholarship.
 
I remember that time when Kent said that since the KJV was used by Paul and it was good enough for him, then it should be good enough for anybody or some shit.
Reminded me about Islamic theological history where the Virgin Mary is Moses' cousin or niece because Mary's dad's name appears somewhere in the Pentateuch.
Gangster tier scholarship.
Kent has ever since descended into more madness than that. He, like many other scammers, has set a date for Christ's return, (2068 if I recall correctly), which stands in blatant contradiction with how Jesus said no one knows the day of His return except the Father, denies the Sabbath commandment to this day, has been denounced by at least one website for endorsing The Shack and teaching from it (a pentecostal voodoo-jumbo book, later adapted into a movie, where God is reportrayed as a black woman) and is mostly concerned with his Dino-themed park. Just about the only useful things he says are about the KJV and debunking evolution, he is an idiot otherwise. The KJV and the issues around it are not invalidated just because some idiot or something an idiot says about them though, let me make this clear.
 
Sergius Bulgakov was one of the greatest theologians of the 20th Century and had some interesting views on scripture. You can read his "Unfading Light" here, part VI of the introduction titled "The Nature of Myth" is what you'll be after in terms of understanding the relationship between myth and interpretation, but if you have the time I highly recommend reading the whole book since it's an absolute masterwork on proper Christian doctrine and worldview.

A brief taste:
First of all one ought to remove a widespread conception of myth as the product of fantasy and invention. A question so simple and yet so fundamental does not even cross the mind of the partisans of this understanding of myth: “What was a myth for the myth’s creators themselves, in whose consciousness it arose? What did they themselves think about the myth that they produced? Some will say, perhaps, that they consciously invented it in order to deceive others. And have they not seriously affirmed that priests invented religion and consequently established it on a conscious and deliberate deception? But in such a case they would have had to deceive themselves first of all, for they did believe in the myths, and they imparted an objective meaning to the myths’ content, not considering it in any way to be only the result of poetic fantasy. Only with such a supposition does the role of mythopoesis in the history of humanity become understandable, where the Dichtung of myth frequently clarifies the weighty Wahrheit of history

In order to understand the meaning of cult, it is necessary to take into account its symbolic realism, its mythopoetic energy. For the faithful, cult is not a theatrical presentation with the goal of creating a mood and it is not an aggregate of willfully selected symbols, but a completely real divine operation, experienced myth, or mythologized reality. True, it is limited by place (a temple, sacred places), objects (sacred things), and time (divine worship, sacred times); it forms therefore only theurgic points on the timeline, but this particularity corresponds on the whole to the nature of religion. Although religion strives to have God as “all in all,” to fuse the transcendent and the immanent into one and thereby overcome their reciprocal polarity, still it arises precisely from that tension and exists only by it and together with it. In this sense religion is a certain transitory state — it strives to overcome itself, it perceives itself “as an old testament.” When God becomes “all in all” there will be no religion in our sense; it will no longer be necessary to reunite (religare) what has been disunited, and there will not be a special cult, for all life will be a divinely operated divine worship.
Heavy stuff but well worth the effort to dig through.
 
Sergius Bulgakov was one of the greatest theologians of the 20th Century and had some interesting views on scripture. You can read his "Unfading Light" here, part VI of the introduction titled "The Nature of Myth" is what you'll be after in terms of understanding the relationship between myth and interpretation, but if you have the time I highly recommend reading the whole book since it's an absolute masterwork on proper Christian doctrine and worldview.

A brief taste:



Heavy stuff but well worth the effort to dig through.
Hs sounds kind of like today's typical new ager syncretic rhetoric.
 
42 They did not remember his power—
the day he redeemed them from the oppressor,
43 the day he displayed his signs in Egypt,
his wonders in the region of Zoan.
44 He turned their river into blood;
they could not drink from their streams.
45 He sent swarms of flies that devoured them,
and frogs that devastated them.
46 He gave their crops to the grasshopper,
their produce to the locust.
47 He destroyed their vines with hail
and their sycamore-figs with sleet.
48 He gave over their cattle to the hail,
their livestock to bolts of lightning.
49 He unleashed against them his hot anger,
his wrath, indignation and hostility—
a band of destroying angels.
50 He prepared a path for his anger;
he did not spare them from death
but gave them over to the plague.
51 He struck down all the firstborn of Egypt,
the firstfruits of manhood in the tents of Ham.
Psalm 78 is one of two retellings of the Exodus in the book, the other being found in psalms 105/106. If you count the plagues listed here, you will notice that there are three missing* - lice, boils and darkness (the third, sixth, and ninth plagues respectively). I have my own theory as to why this is, but I'd like to hear your thoughts before I share it. I'll give you two hints - what do the missing three plagues have in common, and how does that fit in with what psalm 78 is trying to teach? Secondly, doesn't verse 49 look like it's out of place? It doesn't seem to be describing a specific plague, so what is it doing here? Again, look in the rest of psalm 78 and see if you spot anything.

*The LXX, Peshitta, and Targum read "their cattle" instead of "them" in verse 50 (it's a difference of one vowel in the Hebrew), and the MT could conceivably be translated this way as well.
 
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Psalm 78 is one of two retellings of the Exodus in the book, the other being found in psalms 105/106. If you count the plagues listed here, you will notice that there are three missing* - lice, boils and darkness (the third, sixth, and ninth plagues respectively). I have my own theory as to why this is, but I'd like to hear your thoughts before I share it. I'll give you two hints - what do the missing three plagues have in common, and how does that fit in with what psalm 78 is trying to teach? Secondly, doesn't verse 49 look like it's out of place? It doesn't seem to be describing a specific plague, so what is it doing here? Again, look in the rest of psalm 78 and see if you spot anything.

*The LXX, Peshitta, and Targum read "their cattle" instead of "them" in verse 50 (it's a difference of one vowel in the Hebrew), and the MT could conceivably be translated this way as well.
Food for thought. IMHO, those three plagues were omitted for the sake of conciseness, or for some other reason, the author did not think them important to mention. Verse 49 could be understood as God having unleashed some of those plagues upon the Egyptians by letting wicked angels loose on them (the KJV says "evil angels", for clarification). Psalm 78 teaches us about the Lord's providence and forgiving, forbearing nature, even if at times he turns angry on us, or some truly unrepentant ones are to pay the ultimate price.

I looked at lice, boils and darkness, but after a semi-quick reading, could not find commonalities that are strictly unique to these three.
 
Food for thought. IMHO, those three plagues were omitted for the sake of conciseness, or for some other reason, the author did not think them important to mention. Verse 49 could be understood as God having unleashed some of those plagues upon the Egyptians by letting wicked angels loose on them (the KJV says "evil angels", for clarification). Psalm 78 teaches us about the Lord's providence and forgiving, forbearing nature, even if at times he turns angry on us, or some truly unrepentant ones are to pay the ultimate price.

I looked at lice, boils and darkness, but after a semi-quick reading, could not find commonalities that are strictly unique to these three.
You're more or less in the same direction I was heading. The commonality among plagues three, six and nine is that they are delivered without warning, and it may be that the author of Psalm 78 considers them unfit to use as an example of divine retribution for that reason - they were a special punishment for Pharaoh, and God wouldn't normally act that way.

In any case, I have another thing that I've been thinking about these past few days. If you look at Ezekiel 45-46, you will notice that there are a few holidays from the Torah missing from the instructions for the offerings in the Temple:

Rosh Hashana (the first day of the seventh month)
Yom Kippur (the tenth day of the seventh month)
Shemini Atzeret (the 22nd day of the seventh month)
Shavuot (the festival of weeks)

Instead, we find two new days of atonement, on the first and seventh of the first month. I think I've come up with a very interesting answer to explain this, but as before I'd like to invite your contributions.

Hint: Who/what else is missing in Ezekiel's Temple that appears very prominently in the Torah? (I'm thinking of two things, and in Hebrew their names are very similar. Even in English, they start with the same letter).
 
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>Solomon is the Wisest Man in the history of the world
>Still puts pussy on a pedestal to the point of sacrificing kids to moloch

Was he really that wise? I mean David at least tried to cover up Solomon's conception by recalling a guy and trying to get him drunk so they could pass off Solomon as Uriah's. Solomon just kept tried to please his too many wives.
 
One thing I think most people forget about the Bible is that it's not a normal book. Rather, it's a collection of many books comprising numerous different genres. The Song of Songs (or the Book of Songs/Song of Solomon) is a piece of erotic literature spaced between Ecclesiastes and the Book of Wisdom. All three books are vastly different in intent and composition. However, I think one of the most fascinating things about the Bible is that it's a rather miraculous group of text, as it's the most cross-referenced piece of literature in the world.

Below are two images visually showing references between books in the Bible.

OIP.jpg

BibleVizArc7WiderOTNTsmall.png

We have still yet to find every single cross reference in the Bible. If you do some more digging into the matter, you'll find a vast wealth of information regarding the complexities of this singular collection. Not even other holy books compare, to my knowledge.
 
Someone told me an interesting idea on Job. If you take it literally, then it's a very hopeful story. The idea is that Job is the most unblemished man to walk the Earth prior to Jesus and Adam. He's righteous and loyal to God more than maybe David. He's God's top guy at that point. God is not drafting Job to be tortured against the Devil, he's basically betting that Job will win.
It's odd because Job suffers horrifically, but he never himself curses God, he at most wishes for death or non-existence. It's very odd to put it into words, but God has absolute faith in Job, who proves throughout the Book that his love of God is unshakable.

People like Job and Uriah have become my favorite side stories of the Bible. Uriah suffers only because of someone else sin, and Job stands as the man who beat the Devil.
 
Anybody got good book recommendations? Ive got a few.

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The Rational bible:

Very excellent, It breaks down a lot of things that are easy to miss on a casual reading of the old testament bible. Especially in terms of morals, translation and meaning. A real page turner.




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Diary of an american exorcist:

I like how sincere and matter of fact it is. its a slice of life for these guys and very compelling. The website is legit and they have a wonderful list of prayers for the leity.




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An exorcist explains the demonic:

Similar to the book above it but a lot more technical and breaks down what demons can and cannot do. It also explains why possessions happen and what needs to be done. Extremely informative. It explains better then anything else ive read why demons can never be forgiven. (They dont want to be, they knew exactly what they were getting into and ironically know that they screwed up.)




>Solomon is the Wisest Man in the history of the world
>Still puts pussy on a pedestal to the point of sacrificing kids to moloch

Was he really that wise? I mean David at least tried to cover up Solomon's conception by recalling a guy and trying to get him drunk so they could pass off Solomon as Uriah's. Solomon just kept tried to please his too many wives.
He did ask god directly for wisdom, so It's one of the more perplexing parts of the bible. Did god think he could use the power without becoming corrupt? Or did he know he was gonna run with demons and it had to happen for some reason? He straight up gave him the tools to summon and bind demons.

I could be overthinking it, but there's a bit of a new dimension if you separate intelligence from wisdom.

intelligence can give the ability to build and innovate, while wisdom is the knowing how to properly use the byproducts of intelligence. Maybe he knew what he needed to do but didn't know how to do it correctly and just assumed god would fill in the blanks? More likely absolute power corrupted, but its interesting to talk about.
I wholly agree with this. You can say most of it is an allegory of faith, rather than just simply true events. This reminds me of a Chinese Tao saying from Laozi:

"Tao that can be spoken is not the real Tao."

I see it the same way with the Bible. How can you be sure the wisdom of human writers are the same wisdom from God? I'm not trying to sound like a heretic, but it's not a bad idea to differentiate between the ideals of God and the shackled insecurities of man.
I agree with that up to a certain point, but various circumstances in my life have led me to believe the new testament is almost entirely true barring a few misremembered details.

I especially give credence to Luke, he's the one who focuses on Mary the most, and Mary has power over demons hardcore.
 
Anybody got good book recommendations? Ive got a few.

Ver archivo adjunto 3572318

The Rational bible:

Very excellent, It breaks down a lot of things that are easy to miss on a casual reading of the old testament bible. Especially in terms of morals, translation and meaning. A real page turner.




Ver archivo adjunto 3572319
Diary of an american exorcist:

I like how sincere and matter of fact it is. its a slice of life for these guys and very compelling. The website is legit and they have a wonderful list of prayers for the leity.




Ver archivo adjunto 3572329
An exorcist explains the demonic:

Similar to the book above it but a lot more technical and breaks down what demons can and cannot do. It also explains why possessions happen and what needs to be done. Extremely informative. It explains better then anything else ive read why demons can never be forgiven. (They dont want to be, they knew exactly what they were getting into and ironically know that they screwed up.)





He did ask god directly for wisdom, so It's one of the more perplexing parts of the bible. Did god think he could use the power without becoming corrupt? Or did he know he was gonna run with demons and it had to happen for some reason? He straight up gave him the tools to summon and bind demons.

I could be overthinking it, but there's a bit of a new dimension if you separate intelligence from wisdom.

intelligence can give the ability to build and innovate, while wisdom is the knowing how to properly use the byproducts of intelligence. Maybe he knew what he needed to do but didn't know how to do it correctly and just assumed god would fill in the blanks? More likely absolute power corrupted, but its interesting to talk about.

I agree with that up to a certain point, but various circumstances in my life have led me to believe the new testament is almost entirely true barring a few misremembered details.

I especially give credence to Luke, he's the one who focuses on Mary the most, and Mary has power over demons hardcore.
I mean Solomon was just the wisest. He does a good job as king and enriches his people, but he’s still just a man. He can still fall to temptation.
I’m pretty certain both Samuel and Nathan relay that the Israelites will regret their kings. David has the right balance of humors that he’s almost perfect, but he still kills a man.

Samson becomes egotistical due to his strength. Moses freaks out constantly due to the stress of following God’s commands, I cannot stress that about Moses. He basically betrays the family that took him in, for people he barely knows and then has to lead those assholes as they keep fucking up.

Some of the greatest judges, prophets, and kings are very flawed. The whole point of Elijah is how flawed he is, that’s why God chose Elijah. Elijah is a coward who keeps spilling spaghetti without God interceding to give him confidence.
 
Anybody got good book recommendations? Ive got a few.

Ver archivo adjunto 3572318

The Rational bible:

Very excellent, It breaks down a lot of things that are easy to miss on a casual reading of the old testament bible. Especially in terms of morals, translation and meaning. A real page turner.
If you like this, then maybe check out Leon Kass. I have his book on Exodus.
 
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