Bible Study - From a non-religious kiwi

[Kosher Dill]

To start, what if we just read Genesis in November and shared our favorite resources about it?

Mine is:

 

[Opticana]

So I looked this up and all his books on Amazon are around $40. I would totally be down for a book club but that was pretty steep. I should see if I can find one on interlibrary loan.

Yeah, that's definitely an issue. However, it is certainly worth the price - I think the two volumes run to a combined ~1800 pages.

To start, what if we just read Genesis in November and shared our favorite resources about it? Maybe in December Exodus?

Sounds cool. Most of the books I read nowadays are in Hebrew, but these are some English-language sites I use often:

AlHatorah - Has English translations of most classical Rabbinic commentaries on the Bible. Luzzatto in particular is a favorite of mine and worth checking out - a very eclectic nineteenth century commentator who responds to early historical criticism. Not as user-friendly to non-Hebrew speakers as Sefaria, but Sefaria is run by leftist cucks and I refuse to use it.

STEP - I mostly use this for checking textual variants between the SP/LXX and MT.

VBM - Hard to navigate, and the materials are not arranged by chapter and verse, but still a great resource. You can find many of the more popular recent Israeli books on the bible (specifically those put out by Maggid/Yedioth) as English lecture series on this site.

Cassuto's commentary on Genesis 1-11 is a classic, if you're willing to drop $25 on the kindle version.

 

[Splinters RCVD ✞]

KJV Only is unfortunately a key issue, due to linguistic, historical and theological problems. Right off the bat, I will dismiss folks like Ruckmann, Jack Chick, Kent Hovind and Gail Riplinger. These people and those like them are lunatics and massive hypocrites fishing for clout and profit. Avoid them like the plague if you can.

The website scionofzion.com and the King James Bible Research Council are good sources, though obviously not perfect. Present day 'Bible science' has an absolutely insane story behind it, and the corruption surrounding it is worse than anything KF or ED has ever seen.

 

[murdered meat bag]

I'm familiar with the Q belief, in some sort of original manuscript. I don't buy it.

It's a generalization but Q only exists in the ACADEMIC TM COPYRIGHT bible scholarship circles. among laity and clergy, it's nonexistent. the notion doesn't exist until the 19th century. and there isn't any 1st-2nd contemporary sources that point to such a document.

 

[Ishtar]

KJV Only is unfortunately a key issue, due to linguistic, historical and theological problems. Right off the bat, I will dismiss folks like Ruckmann, Jack Chick, Kent Hovind and Gail Riplinger. These people and those like them are lunatics and massive hypocrites fishing for clout and profit. Avoid them like the plague if you can.

The website scionofzion.com and the King James Bible Research Council are good sources, though obviously not perfect. Present day 'Bible science' has an absolutely insane story behind it, and the corruption surrounding it is worse than anything KF or ED has ever seen.

Chick I’d disagree with. Whatever you think of him, the man was nothing but sincere and zealous.

 

[Basil Julep]

OK so I suggested talking about Genesis this month but my knowledge of the Bible and Christianity is definitely at a lower level than some of you...so I guess I'll just throw out a question..

So Noah plants his vineyard and gets drunk and then he's in his tent. And then his son Ham "saw his nakedness." This ends up with Noah cursing Ham's son Canaan.

So what is your take? Was this just literally seeing his dad naked? Code for incest with Noah? Code for incest with mom? Why was Canaan cursed and not Ham?

 

[Opticana]

So what is your take? Was this just literally seeing his dad naked? Code for incest with Noah? Code for incest with mom? Why was Canaan cursed and not Ham?

It's definitely the first, as 9:23 makes clear:

Then Shem and Japheth took a garment, laid it on both their shoulders, and walked backward and covered the nakedness of their father. Their faces were turned backward, and they did not see their father's nakedness.

Why Canaan is cursed and not Ham is a much more difficult question (the Septuagint actually replaces Canaan with Ham in verse 25). Presumably Canaan is specified because of their later history with the Israelites and reputation for sexual deviance, and the story is meant to be read against that background. (By the way, one of the other traditional suggestions for Ham's action is that he castrated Noah).

In any case, what I find really interesting about the Flood story is that it doesn't seem to be very important in the broader Bible, despite the prominence it has in our consciousness. Outside of Genesis, you get an offhand mention of Noah in Isaiah 54:9 and a couple in Ezekiel, but it doesn't seem like people thought about it a lot. Isaac is another example of this, and I'd be interested if anyone has any suggestions on what the deal with him is. Abraham and Jacob especially are mentioned individually throughout the Bible, but Isaac only shows up as part of the patriarchs as a whole, with one odd exception in Amos 7:

“Behold, I am setting a plumb line
in the midst of my people Israel;
I will never again pass by them;
the high places of Isaac shall be made desolate,
and the sanctuaries of Israel shall be laid waste,
and I will rise against the house of Jeroboam with the sword.”

 

[Ishtar]

OK so I suggested talking about Genesis this month but my knowledge of the Bible and Christianity is definitely at a lower level than some of you...so I guess I'll just throw out a question..

So Noah plants his vineyard and gets drunk and then he's in his tent. And then his son Ham "saw his nakedness." This ends up with Noah cursing Ham's son Canaan.

So what is your take? Was this just literally seeing his dad naked? Code for incest with Noah? Code for incest with mom? Why was Canaan cursed and not Ham?

It was more his attitude. He gawked at his father’s shame and disrespected him. “Hey bros dad is out drunk and nude, come and see!” Whereas the other two brothers walked backwards to cover their father with a cloth IIRC. Thus demonstrating they weren’t taking advantage of or mocking him.

At least that’s the interpretation I was taught.

 

[Splinters RCVD ✞]

It was more his attitude. He gawked at his father’s shame and disrespected him. “Hey bros dad is out drunk and nude, come and see!” Whereas the other two brothers walked backwards to cover their father with a cloth IIRC. Thus demonstrating they weren’t taking advantage of or mocking him.

At least that’s the interpretation I was taught.

Finally someone who knows it right.

 

[Opticana]

I figured I should get to know the NT at least somewhat, so I've been glancing at Matthew occasionally. In 19:18-19 we have:

He said to him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said, “You shall not murder; You shall not commit adultery; You shall not steal; You shall not bear false witness; Honor your father and mother; also, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”​

Why is the fifth commandment out of order here, and why is the tenth missing? The first four commandments aren't interpersonal, so I get why they're not listed.

 

[Splinters RCVD ✞]

I figured I should get to know the NT at least somewhat, so I've been glancing at Matthew occasionally. In 19:18-19 we have:

Why is the fifth commandment out of order here, and why is the tenth missing? The first four commandments aren't interpersonal, so I get why they're not listed.

Jesus was making an allusion here, with a slight paraphrase. The latter, as long as it does diminish from the original message or pose a contradiction to it, is acceptable.

 

[Opticana]

Jesus was making an allusion here, with a slight paraphrase. The latter, as long as it does diminish from the original message or pose a contradiction to it, is acceptable.

I'm not saying it's necessarily problematic. On the contrary - I assume there's a reason for the deviation, and would like to hear suggestions as to what it could be. See the conversation between the spies and Rahab in Joshua 2 - she paraphrases the first five commandments, while the second five are left out as they're not relevant to the story.

 

[Splinters RCVD ✞]

I'm not saying it's necessarily problematic. On the contrary - I assume there's a reason for the deviation, and would like to hear suggestions as to what it could be. See the conversation between the spies and Rahab in Joshua 2 - she paraphrases the first five commandments, while the second five are left out as they're not relevant to the story.

Where does she do that?

 

[Opticana]

Where does she do that?

 

[Splinters RCVD ✞]

Ver archivo adjunto 2694740
Ver archivo adjunto 2694741

Hmmm. Sounds quite nice, and the Hebrew is a nice extra, but it seems to me that these cross-references were made by someone trying to look clever.
Similarly worded does not neccessarily mean related or linked.
Keep in mind that Rahab lied to keep the Hebrew spies safe, a direct violation of 'thou shalt not lie'. This implies that either she was a very fresh convert, or someone who recognized God to be mighty, but was not an adherent of his yet. Her linguistics could simply be her quoting whatever she had heard before about God, the Israelites and the events surrounding them. As for the mother and father thing, it is a stretch IMHO.

 

[Smolrolls]

Buddha was born in the highest caste of India. The Prophet Muhammid was adopted and married into wealth, Marcus Aurelius, one who would be called the ideal stoic, was adopted and groomed to be emperor of the Roman empire. Before I act out of bad faith let me just drop this:

Jesus Christ was born a carpenter, one arguably in rural Israel.

Suetonius, Tacitus, and Pliny the younger, two out of three we're roman historians who we're born and lived through the roman empire, confirmed the existence of Christians in the first hundreds years A.D. And even Marcus Aurelius in his book Meditations called them "obstinate Christians".

Now if you read the bible, you can say Jesus Christ was born an ordinary "one of us" working-class man in the equivalent of rural america in Israel. He wasn't born in a high caste-tier society, he wasn't taken in by a wealthy merchant-class family, neither was he spotted by an emperor of Rome to become the emperor of Rome.

Look you read the bible, you can get glimpses of his childhood, you know about the baptism of John. But what the bible doesn't tell you is....what did he do between being a child and his baptism? For even the bible said that if it we're list all the deeds Jesus has done...it would take alot more pages than say 1000+ pages. So what did Jesus do during that gap period?

You know that saying where if your religious, there are jobs and careers that make you lose faith with god? Careers like say customer support where karens wrestle with you. Or clients who are given an estimate on a carpentry job and then exclaim: "That's so expensive! Why would you charge me so much when Ikea offers less than your quote?" And you know how people look down on blue-collar workers, thinking them as low-lives yet view teachers and doctors in high esteem. I mention teachers because you know how some of them hate the kids that they teach, and raising them to be proper citizens to help people at least. And carpenters don't have it easy: locked up knees, sclerosis, and other injuries, not making enough to make ends meet sometimes, etc... Blue-collar jobs are dangerous, they can even get you killed. And it ain't exactly easy like being a merchant, and I'm sure any blue-collar Kiwis can call me out if you like. Now add how hard-working blue-collar jobs like carpentry is, and tackle dealing with haggling that make Karens shrill back into their covens and make you want to strangle said hagglers, some of whom have hook noses. Add to how hard it was to live between 0-53 A.D. with no Netflix and modern day comforts...yea.

TLDR: Jesus Christ lived through the same B.S. we do in life. Except an argument with a Karen might get you and your family killed. Or you'd be made to watch as said Karen butchers your family while they break your legs and make you be an indentured servant in general labor. King Herod cut John the Baptist head off because he had to keep a promise to a girl that danced very well for him. And that same King Herod executed 2 years old boys because the king feared a savior would usurp his throne when Jesus was barely a baby.

 

[Quiet Guy]

Buddha was born in the highest caste of India. The Prophet Muhammid was adopted and married into wealth, Marcus Aurelius, one who would be called the ideal stoic, was adopted and groomed to be emperor of the Roman empire. Before I act out of bad faith let me just drop this:

Jesus Christ was born a carpenter, one arguably in rural Israel.

Suetonius, Tacitus, and Pliny the younger, two out of three we're roman historians who we're born and lived through the roman empire, confirmed the existence of Christians in the first hundreds years A.D. And even Marcus Aurelius in his book Meditations called them "obstinate Christians".

Now if you read the bible, you can say Jesus Christ was born an ordinary "one of us" working-class man in the equivalent of rural america in Israel. He wasn't born in a high caste-tier society, he wasn't taken in by a wealthy merchant-class family, neither was he spotted by an emperor of Rome to become the emperor of Rome.

Look you read the bible, you can get glimpses of his childhood, you know about the baptism of John. But what the bible doesn't tell you is....what did he do between being a child and his baptism? For even the bible said that if it we're list all the deeds Jesus has done...it would take alot more pages than say 1000+ pages. So what did Jesus do during that gap period?

You know that saying where if your religious, there are jobs and careers that make you lose faith with god? Careers like say customer support where karens wrestle with you. Or clients who are given an estimate on a carpentry job and then exclaim: "That's so expensive! Why would you charge me so much when Ikea offers less than your quote?" And you know how people look down on blue-collar workers, thinking them as low-lives yet view teachers and doctors in high esteem. I mention teachers because you know how some of them hate the kids that they teach, and raising them to be proper citizens to help people at least. And carpenters don't have it easy: locked up knees, sclerosis, and other injuries, not making enough to make ends meet sometimes, etc... Blue-collar jobs are dangerous, they can even get you killed. And it ain't exactly easy like being a merchant, and I'm sure any blue-collar Kiwis can call me out if you like. Now add how hard-working blue-collar jobs like carpentry is, and tackle dealing with haggling that make Karens shrill back into their covens and make you want to strangle said hagglers, some of whom have hook noses. Add to how hard it was to live between 0-53 A.D. with no Netflix and modern day comforts...yea.

TLDR: Jesus Christ lived through the same B.S. we do in life. Except an argument with a Karen might get you and your family killed. Or you'd be made to watch as said Karen butchers your family while they break your legs and make you be an indentured servant in general labor. King Herod cut John the Baptist head off because he had to keep a promise to a girl that danced very well for him. And that same King Herod executed 2 years old boys because the king feared a savior would usurp his throne when Jesus was barely a baby.

That actually wasn't the same Herod as the one who killed the infants. The Bible mentions that Herod dying, but Joseph was warned in a dream about Herod's son, so they went to Nazareth instead of Bethlehem when returning from Egypt. After a quick search it looks like there is a total of six different people named Herod in the New Testament.

Also, from what I understand, I think carpenters actually did relatively well in those days, although I don't think they were especially wealthy either. Granted I suppose your point is that Jesus wasn't from what could be considered an elite class.

 

[Kosher Dill]

Jesus Christ was born a carpenter

That's the common translation, but it's really not clear precisely what he and Joseph did for a living, other than being some sort of builders or workers with materials. At any rate he was born to a conquered people in an unimportant town, and nobody in his community or inner circle seems to have been well-to-do.

 

[Action Orange]

Buddha was born in the highest caste of India. The Prophet Muhammid was adopted and married into wealth, Marcus Aurelius, one who would be called the ideal stoic, was adopted and groomed to be emperor of the Roman empire. Before I act out of bad faith let me just drop this:

Jesus Christ was born a carpenter, one arguably in rural Israel.

Suetonius, Tacitus, and Pliny the younger, two out of three we're roman historians who we're born and lived through the roman empire, confirmed the existence of Christians in the first hundreds years A.D. And even Marcus Aurelius in his book Meditations called them "obstinate Christians".

Now if you read the bible, you can say Jesus Christ was born an ordinary "one of us" working-class man in the equivalent of rural america in Israel. He wasn't born in a high caste-tier society, he wasn't taken in by a wealthy merchant-class family, neither was he spotted by an emperor of Rome to become the emperor of Rome.

Look you read the bible, you can get glimpses of his childhood, you know about the baptism of John. But what the bible doesn't tell you is....what did he do between being a child and his baptism? For even the bible said that if it we're list all the deeds Jesus has done...it would take alot more pages than say 1000+ pages. So what did Jesus do during that gap period?

You know that saying where if your religious, there are jobs and careers that make you lose faith with god? Careers like say customer support where karens wrestle with you. Or clients who are given an estimate on a carpentry job and then exclaim: "That's so expensive! Why would you charge me so much when Ikea offers less than your quote?" And you know how people look down on blue-collar workers, thinking them as low-lives yet view teachers and doctors in high esteem. I mention teachers because you know how some of them hate the kids that they teach, and raising them to be proper citizens to help people at least. And carpenters don't have it easy: locked up knees, sclerosis, and other injuries, not making enough to make ends meet sometimes, etc... Blue-collar jobs are dangerous, they can even get you killed. And it ain't exactly easy like being a merchant, and I'm sure any blue-collar Kiwis can call me out if you like. Now add how hard-working blue-collar jobs like carpentry is, and tackle dealing with haggling that make Karens shrill back into their covens and make you want to strangle said hagglers, some of whom have hook noses. Add to how hard it was to live between 0-53 A.D. with no Netflix and modern day comforts...yea.

TLDR: Jesus Christ lived through the same B.S. we do in life. Except an argument with a Karen might get you and your family killed. Or you'd be made to watch as said Karen butchers your family while they break your legs and make you be an indentured servant in general labor. King Herod cut John the Baptist head off because he had to keep a promise to a girl that danced very well for him. And that same King Herod executed 2 years old boys because the king feared a savior would usurp his throne when Jesus was barely a baby.

Theres something really beautiful and poetic about God, a perfect being, incarnating as a human and experiencing pain that crosses the human pain threshold, all to save the little creatures he made from themselves, and he incarnated as a lowly person of seemingly little import. In doing so, he demonstrated that we, being made in his image, are capable of great, loving actions as well.

Something I've noticed about God's character in scripture is that he loves inverting things. He seems to like subverting expectations by using evil to accomplish good, and by turning the lowly into the high. Inversion has been attributed to satan in pop culture, but it's really God's characteristic first and foremost. The same can be said about fire. I believe it was Moses that said that his God was an "all-consuming fire."

Sorry for rambling a bit, I just think the bible is really neat

 

[Ishtar]

I believe Jesus was what was called a "day laborer" as in the lowest class of worker-that wasn't a slave anyway. For the first two decades of his life(until his ministry began at thirty) he was a carpenter, which at that time was building houses, and working outside in the hot sun, in the rain, and being covered in dirt and grime.