Better Call Saul

[Arthur Morgan]

DAE still thinks Chuck was the one who set Jimmy to be a hustler lawyer instead of being merely aware that Jimmy might've fucked everything up if he was given a position at Chuck's firm? Because, if I'm not mistaken, Jimmy had an opportunity at another law firm only to keep scamming people. Still, BCS fans give Chuck flak for not giving Jimmy a chance but what are the odds Jimmy would still scam people while tarnishing HHM's reputation?

Yeah, in season two he gets hired by another firm that HHM is working with for the Sandpiper case and chafes under their restrictions. So he acts like a jackass to try and get fired so he won't have to give back his signing bonus. That whole montage was just cringe for me. Pretty sure they would have agreed to a payment plan if he just walked out and re-established himself as a solo Elder Law attorney.

The other problem was that Howard and Kim got him the job because they didn't realize Chuck was kind of right that Jimmy would have been a terrible fit in a firm. Had they never broached the idea of Jimmy joining Davis & Main, he would have just gone back to doing wills for old people, stayed in his lane, and Kim would never have been sent back to document review because her recommendation made Howard look bad. Which then led to the bank client, which led to Chuck's illness getting exposed, which led to the collapse of everything.

 

[Celestial Peace]

Yeah, in season two he gets hired by another firm that HHM is working with for the Sandpiper case and chafes under their restrictions. So he acts like a jackass to try and get fired so he won't have to give back his signing bonus. That whole montage was just cringe for me. Pretty sure they would have agreed to a payment plan if he just walked out and re-established himself as a solo Elder Law attorney.

The other problem was that Howard and Kim got him the job because they didn't realize Chuck was kind of right that Jimmy would have been a terrible fit in a firm. Had they never broached the idea of Jimmy joining Davis & Main, he would have just gone back to doing wills for old people, stayed in his lane, and Kim would never have been sent back to document review because her recommendation made Howard look bad. Which then led to the bank client, which led to Chuck's illness getting exposed, which led to the collapse of everything.

I just find pretty fucking stupid that both BB fans and BCS fans are willing to justify the main protagonists actions. Both Walt and Jimmy made life hell for a lot of people during their criminal careers and I don't think it was Gilligan's intention to paint them in a good light in any way whatsoever.

But BB/BCS fans are perhaps guided by the traditional "protagonist good guy/antagonist bad guy" dynamic so they end up seeing Walt and Jimmy as victims of the circumstances rather than unredeeming criminals.

 

[TheHarbinger]

I don't think it was Gilligan's intention to paint them in a good light in any way whatsoever.

Both Walt and Jimmy go out on a moral high. Walt is killing Nazis, the literal boogieman for liberals, and freeing Jesse. And also giving his family millions. Saul atones for his sins by taking a massive unnecessary prison sentence. Gives Kim her life back. And is always shown to be morally superior to the other characters in the last season to the point where the show goes out of its ways to bring back old characters repeatedly to demonstrate the virtuous and principled side of James McGill.

They literally couldn't even have Saul and Kim interact with the Kettleman family without showing them as being morally better. When they are just trying to use the Kettlemans to mess with Howard the storyline turns into them defending the elderly against fraud. And the Kettlemans coming out looking like the bad guys who were defrauding old folks out of their money. They did the same with Howard, where Saul is messing with him, but the real bad guy in Howard's life turns out to be Lalo by freak coincidence who goes way beyond messing with Howard and just shoots him in the head. It's just show convincing the viewers that you can root for Saul's redemption and the faggots on the bus cheering along.

But BB/BCS fans are perhaps guided by the traditional "protagonist good guy/antagonist bad guy" dynamic so they end up seeing Walt and Jimmy as victims of the circumstances rather than unredeeming criminals.

One of Walt's first scenes in Breaking Bad is beating up a 6'5" college football player for mocking his mental retard of a son. And then getting in the face of the guy and threatening him like some mafioso killer. "Go ahead.....make your move....your girlfriends better back you up". As if in real life anything but him getting pummeled would have happened. They did the same thing a few episodes later where some Wall Street creep has his car get torched by Walt where it's played like "Walt does all the things that real men dream about" instead "this guy is going to get arrested before selling his first bag of meth with this behavior".

 

[BetterFuckChuck]

Both Walt and Jimmy go out on a moral high. Walt is killing Nazis, the literal boogieman for liberals, and freeing Jesse. And also giving his family millions. Saul atones for his sins by taking a massive unnecessary prison sentence. Gives Kim her life back. And is always shown to be morally superior to the other characters in the last season to the point where the show goes out of its ways to bring back old characters repeatedly to demonstrate the virtuous and principled side of James McGill.

They literally couldn't even have Saul and Kim interact with the Kettleman family without showing them as being morally better. When they are just trying to use the Kettlemans to mess with Howard the storyline turns into them defending the elderly against fraud. And the Kettlemans coming out looking like the bad guys who were defrauding old folks out of their money. They did the same with Howard, where Saul is messing with him, but the real bad guy in Howard's life turns out to be Lalo by freak coincidence who goes way beyond messing with Howard and just shoots him in the head. It's just show convincing the viewers that you can root for Saul's redemption and the faggots on the bus cheering along.

well thats not what i got out of it. also again with the neonazis thing. you do realize the show had you spent rooting for a spic-killing racist the whole time? that's the point of the show's sleight of hand: making you root for the bad guy, then showing them destroying their own lives

Walt's "victory" in the finale is literally getting in the same place he wouldve been had he accepted the Gray Matter job, except now his family hates him. He sees it as a victory because he's a character who is selfish and never valued what he had in life

One of Walt's first scenes in Breaking Bad is beating up a 6'5" college football player for mocking his mental retard of a son. And then getting in the face of the guy and threatening him like some mafioso killer. "Go ahead.....make your move....your girlfriends better back you up". As if in real life anything but him getting pummeled would have happened. They did the same thing a few episodes later where some Wall Street creep has his car get torched by Walt where it's played like "Walt does all the things that real men dream about" instead "this guy is going to get arrested before selling his first bag of meth with this behavior".

you kinda have to make your protagonist do cool things otherwise you get TLJ

also that episode is literally where they decided "hey what if Walt is actually the bad guy"

 

[Arthur Morgan]

I just find pretty fucking stupid that both BB fans and BCS fans are willing to justify the main protagonists actions. Both Walt and Jimmy made life hell for a lot of people during their criminal careers and I don't think it was Gilligan's intention to paint them in a good light in any way whatsoever.

But BB/BCS fans are perhaps guided by the traditional "protagonist good guy/antagonist bad guy" dynamic so they end up seeing Walt and Jimmy as victims of the circumstances rather than unredeeming criminals.

Oh I'm not justifying what he did, I'm just saying there was a peaceful option there and Chuck, Howard and Kim misreading the situation and Jimmy as a person caused a lot of their problems.

To me, Walt lost all moral high ground when he turned down the Gray Matter job. He would have had everything he needed to pay for his medical bills, along with work that he would have enjoyed, but because it was Elliot offering it to him, he turned it down, despite knowing what it could mean for his family. And that was before Jesse came back with the money from their previous cook. But I still like BB and Walt as a character because he's entertaining.

 

[AnOminous]

Yeah, in season two he gets hired by another firm that HHM is working with for the Sandpiper case and chafes under their restrictions. So he acts like a jackass to try and get fired so he won't have to give back his signing bonus. That whole montage was just cringe for me. Pretty sure they would have agreed to a payment plan if he just walked out and re-established himself as a solo Elder Law attorney.

That was kind of the point. Clifford Main even told him basically that and that he wasn't fooling anyone.

 

[Honka Honka Burning Love]

Yeah, in season two he gets hired by another firm that HHM is working with for the Sandpiper case and chafes under their restrictions. So he acts like a jackass to try and get fired so he won't have to give back his signing bonus. That whole montage was just cringe for me. Pretty sure they would have agreed to a payment plan if he just walked out and re-established himself as a solo Elder Law attorney.

The other problem was that Howard and Kim got him the job because they didn't realize Chuck was kind of right that Jimmy would have been a terrible fit in a firm. Had they never broached the idea of Jimmy joining Davis & Main, he would have just gone back to doing wills for old people, stayed in his lane, and Kim would never have been sent back to document review because her recommendation made Howard look bad. Which then led to the bank client, which led to Chuck's illness getting exposed, which led to the collapse of everything.

This is why I think that BCS kind of really punts the character of Jimmy and what Saul really is to him sometimes.

Breaking Bad is about a Man who is Good not because he is inherently good but because he has never had a proper opportunity to be bad and his descent when he is allowed to let out the side of himself that had always been there but has never been cultivated.

Better Call Saul should have been about a Good Man who is sincerely trying to reform but has the ladder kicked out of him. Jimmy's time at Davis and Main shouldn't have been unfulfilling for him not because he is inherently a scammer..it should have been unfulfilling because while being a "Real" Lawyer is part of his goal..the main part of it is to be a "Real" Lawyer in Chucks eyes.

 

[Arthur Morgan]

Better Call Saul should have been about a Good Man who is sincerely trying to reform but has the ladder kicked out of him. Jimmy's time at Davis and Main shouldn't have been unfulfilling for him not because he is inherently a scammer..it should have been unfulfilling because while being a "Real" Lawyer is part of his goal..the main part of it is to be a "Real" Lawyer in Chucks eyes.

I don't think it was about scamming, most of his ideas were legitimate, if skirting the law. There's nothing illegal about filming a commercial that tugs at the heart strings and airing it right when you know your target audience is going to be watching a show. But it could have damaged the image that they wanted to have for the firm. And the fact that he did it without permission also caused problems. Later on, he discovers that they used his commercial idea, but aired a bland, static text with a moving background at late night, when none of the potential clients would be watching.

That was the problem, he saw a way to get more clients for the class action lawsuit, was completely right about it working, and was shut down for reasons Jimmy himself doesn't understand. Because he doesn't see the problem with running a sleazy commercial that created a false incident (Since the woman in it wasn't affected by the nursing home) while one of Davis and Main's associate lawyers narrates it.

 

[Honka Honka Burning Love]

I don't think it was about scamming, most of his ideas were legitimate, if skirting the law. There's nothing illegal about filming a commercial that tugs at the heart strings and airing it right when you know your target audience is going to be watching a show. But it could have damaged the image that they wanted to have for the firm. And the fact that he did it without permission also caused problems. Later on, he discovers that they used his commercial idea, but aired a bland, static text with a moving background at late night, when none of the potential clients would be watching.

That was the problem, he saw a way to get more clients for the class action lawsuit, was completely right about it working, and was shut down for reasons Jimmy himself doesn't understand. Because he doesn't see the problem with running a sleazy commercial that created a false incident (Since the woman in it wasn't affected by the nursing home) while one of Davis and Main's associate lawyers narrates it.

I have less of an issue about what happened and more about the why.

 

[Pedophobe]

Rhea Seehorn looked like Pixyteri at the end.

 

[Kharash]

Rhea Seehorn looked like Pixyteri at the end.
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I liked her better as a MtG player.

 

[AnOminous]

Rhea Seehorn looked like Pixyteri at the end.

She was supposed to look bad at this point in the series. She had thrown away her career out of guilt, wanted to separate herself from her previous life, and was basically punishing herself.

Sort of like Jesse in BB, she had done stuff so awful she was racked with guilt over it, and that by itself made her, on some level, better than the completely sociopathic monsters Saul and Walt had become. The comparisons are interesting, because while both of them basically turned themselves in and confessed, Jesse still managed to get away scot-free, albeit after a lot of horrific suffering, while Kim got away with it despite confessing.

It's too bad the ending was so poorly executed, because it just made Jimmy look like a cuck and a simp, and Kim basically got to waltz out free of real consequences.

 

[Star Classic]

It's too bad the ending was so poorly executed, because it just made Jimmy look like a cuck and a simp, and Kim basically got to waltz out free of real consequences.

Its implied that Kim will probably get absolutely wrecked Karl Jobst style from Howards wife. So in a way, she will still get some sort of reckoning.

 

[TheHarbinger]

Its implied that Kim will probably get absolutely wrecked Karl Jobst style from Howards wife. So in a way, she will still get some sort of reckoning.

It's not implied at all that anything will happen to Kim other than not going to jail like Jimmy. Peter Gould said in interviews later that Kim's ending is more optimistic. That she'll work doing legal aid or with public defenders but never practice law by herself ever again. Jimmy basically bit the bullet for everyone as far as a jail sentence or criminal responsibility goes. Kim just has to live with the infamy of being known at the wife of Better Call Saul the evil scum cartel lawyer.

Realistically someone like Kim would never get to practice law again with a license as she doesn't have the political connections to get reinstated like a high profile corporate or criminal defense lawyer. She'll work as a law volunteer and have a normal job as well or possibly let her husband support them both. But there is almost no chance that Howard's widow would be able to get money from her. Kim was threatened by the cartel to keep quiet and can simply claim that she knew that the cartel had killed witnesses before.

It's too bad the ending was so poorly executed, because it just made Jimmy look like a cuck and a simp, and Kim basically got to waltz out free of real consequences.

Jesse and Kim walk away but aren't exactly going to life a fun life. Jesse will be looking over his shoulder forever and missing his dead girlfriends. Kim won't get her law license back and will be known internationally as being the wife of one of the biggest criminal lawyers in modern history. Kim will be stalked by newspapers and podcasters for the rest of her life bothering her for interviews. She will never live her mistakes down at least publicly. Unfortunately the ending is just rushed and abrupt. Instead of meaningful scenes we get the retards on the short bus chanting Saul's commercial lines.

 

[WonderWino]

Kind of makes me think saul was born in the wrong century. He'd have done pretty well doing legal work for these guys back in the day

or more likely have been shot pretty quickly for pissing somebody off. Probably a sheriff

 

[Five Gays]

I liked the show overall but I can't get over some of the dumb decisions Kim made. The Acker plot for example. Why did the writers try the pose that helping Acker was the morally right choice to make?

• He didn't own the house, he's an idiot if he thought he did
• He was offered $18,000, which in 2004 would be enough to mostly buy another shithole in New Mexico.
• Kevin is an asshole but it's his property. If Acker wanted to own a house he had his whole life to buy one. Or decades prior to make an offer.

I think the millenial writers tried to pose it as a 'Acker is poor so helping him is good, Kevin is rich so working for him is bad', which I can't stand.

Also Jimmy's plot with trying to get the old lady to settle the retirment home case and then trashing his reputation because he felt bad for her lost friendship was lame. Obviously the writers wrote themselves in a corner here and couldn't have him rich in season 3. But if you're Jimmy and you screw people over and scam them for years, are you really going to gain an concsious right when you're about to make millions of dollars? To do that much work to then make yourself look like an asshole because some old ladies aren't friends anymore? It didn't make sense for his character even before season 4.

 

[#lurker]

Why did the writers try the pose that helping Acker was the morally right choice to make?

I haven't watched it since release, but I never got that feeling. I don't think the show really picked a side. More making a point to Kim, who became a moralfag and was taking on these causes to make up for her own failings.

 

[Five Gays]

You're probably right. If they wanted to make it the morally just decision then they would have made the character more sympathetic. It still doesn't make sense why someone would risk their law license over, but maybe Kim was just supposed to be a self-destructive person.

 

[TheHarbinger]

Obviously the writers wrote themselves in a corner here and couldn't have him rich in season 3.

This happened with Breaking Bad as well. Where they'd put Walt into a situation where the only choices were either go into witness protection or kill someone. Each time Walt (and Jesse) ended up killing people rather than stop working as drug dealers. Killing Krazy-8, then Gale, then the drug dealers on that corner, then Gus, then an entire Nazi gang. Walt just kept getting crazier and crazier and killing more and more. To the point where he couldn't even control the violence around him.

They couldn't pull the trigger on making Jimmy or Kim go fully bad. They'd get to the line and walk back instead of crossing it. So each season is them flirting with the dark side then chickening out at the last minute. While characters like Walt, Jesse, or Mike are going further into organized crime and brutality. Lots of writers have a hard time making their favorite characters become irredeemable pieces of shit though.

But if you're Jimmy and you screw people over and scam them for years, are you really going to gain an concsious right when you're about to make millions of dollars?

If Jimmy's scamming lead directly to Chuck killing himself and then he changed his ways it would have made some sense. That the suicide of his brother devastates him to the point of breaking good. But the writers needed Jimmy to become Saul at some point and were trapped by the Breaking Bad plot. The way that Jimmy's life unfolds in the series is like he lived his life out of sequence. Where actions from the future affect his past instead of the other way around. It's like the prequel story has the characters reacting to stuff that they did in the future because the audience and writers are already aware of them. A backwards show.

To do that much work to then make yourself look like an asshole because some old ladies aren't friends anymore? It didn't make sense for his character even before season 4.

The character writing in Better Call Saul is not the strongest. They obviously struggled with writing what they wanted to happen versus what 'had' to happen to fit into the Breaking Bad timeline. Jimmy probably gets the worst of this. Where they spent 4.5 seasons telling audiences that they will see "Jimmy become Saul" only to have it happen in a time jump that was off camera. Like if they time jumped Walt getting cancer to after Gus was dead and just wrote the show like that.

 

[The Hardest R]

I think they took too long to make the transition from Jimmy to Saul. Then it was too late because they had other interesting plot lines that they wanted to focus on instead.