Ask @WelperHelper99 about mormon shit - Cope and Seethe edition

[Not 6 Foot]

So now you have to say that there were 26 people who lied in the face of public and financials ostracization and who were willing to die on that testimony "just because".

Okay.
There were 26 people who lied in the face of public and financials ostracization and who were willing to die on that testimony "just because".

 

[Space Police]

Text print analysis has been done comparing The Book of Mormon to a body of sermons letters and journals of his contemporaries and the highest match was Martin Harris with some part matching him linguistically and stylistically 20% and that is the highest most of the Book doesn't even match that much.

The Book of Mormon has been rewritten and edited several times over the years, so of course the current version won't match Joseph Smith's writings. Try to find the original draft (not from a church website), and you'll see that the diction makes it sound a lot like it was written by a 19th-century New York country boy and not a Biblical race.

Every time someone suggests something for plagiarism the options do not remotely match the content of the Book of Mormon it is more likely to win Powerball 3 times in a row than for it to be plagiarized. It is impossible that it was plagiarized from any known sources while people have been searching for possible options since it's publication.

No, it wasn't plagiarized.

If you say he did it for money; He went into debt to run the church, and he died poor and in debt. So much so that Emma (his primary wife) had to sell off their personal property and remarry admittedly to a man she did not love.
If you say he did it for the sex with the polygyny, 1 it was practiced anciently and by early Christianity. 2. He only had sexual relation with 16 of his at least 45 wives.

16 women is still a lot. Joseph Smith liked the idea of starting his own religion and being an American Muhammad, which is why he did all this. It caught on because the pioneers liked the idea of America being a holy land.

In fact given his education you are more likely to win Powerball 7 times in a row than it is that Joseph was able to come up with such a cohesive all encompassing theology, that is so heavily rooted in the bible, and ancient Israeli, and early Christian traditions, practices, and worship.

Smith wasn't some dumb hillbilly. He was homeschooled by his father, given access to lots of books, and interested in religion. He was well-read, even if he couldn't write. He would have known all about those Christian and Israeli traditions.

In short if they aren't worth listening too why are the fruits of living them so facially good?

Appearances can be deceiving, just like a slick car salesman. Why do you need 10% tithing?

The plates were actually shown to many more people who wrote of their experiences in their own Journals or in letters I believe the current count of people who had such experience is around 26.

Were any of them the church's enemies?

 

[Neodanthril]

Polygyny has been practiced all throughout biblical times even through the first century and a half of Christians.

that an act was recorded in the bible is not an endorsement of the behavior. nor that there are laws pertaining to polygamy an endorsement, unless you also want to argue for the legitimacy of slavery on the same account and a host of other blatantly unsavory things. regarding polygamy in the early church, i am certainly not seeing anything to suggest it was widespread, nevermind that the practice is repeatedly rebuked throughout the new testament, so again even if every single Christian from AD 33-316 was in a polygamus marraige it doesnt mean it would be right.

FLDS are not Members of the Church

at least they had the stones to back their prophet and truly believed that he was receiving messages from god, wrong though he was. because without that shred of legitmacy there is nothing to differentiate mormonism from the other sex cults that pop up in the us from time to time that slap a veneer of christianity on their wolf body to try and fool people. as i am reading it, smith claims that god revealed to him that polygamy was awesome and acceptable in his sight. so was he wrong in this? did he just make this one up but the rest of the stuff was legit? why did the church only become suspicious of the practice when it was politically convenient? breezing throught the manifestos, there doesnt appear to be any theological backing for the abrogation of smiths prophecy, just plain ol cynical defying the will of god (as mormons would have you believe) to avoid persecution. that some "apostles" sanctioned marriages in places other than the us because they thought it was legal there lends credence to the theory that this is just outward dishonesty done only to avoid perseuction. bowing to outward demands on faith an entirely unchristian notion even through the first century and a half of Christians and beyond to the present day.

is zion still located in jackson county missouri?
and call me crazy but im just not buying this "mormons were persecuted because they were intelligent hardworking honest men that just wanted to quietly practice their faith and the goyim were just jealous of their success," story since ive heard it before.

 

[Roboute Guilliman]

The Book of Mormon has been rewritten and edited several times over the years, so of course the current version won't match Joseph Smith's writings. Try to find the original draft (not from a church website), and you'll see that the diction makes it sound a lot like it was written by a 19th-century New York country boy and not a Biblical race.

"The Book of Mormon: The Earliest Text" Edited by Stamford Carmack has been used in them and it reduced the numbers across the board. The Book of Mormon -all the edits is written in EME which had not been it use for centuries since being replaced by King James English, which became modern English which was spoken in Joseph's day.

Smith wasn't some dumb hillbilly. He was homeschooled by his father, given access to lots of books, and interested in religion. He was well-read, even if he couldn't write. He would have known all about those Christian and Israeli traditions.

Literally every contemporary account other than Lucy Mack's says otherwise.

Were any of them the church's enemies?

No, why would you let the people trying to rob you near what they were trying to steal from you? Are you retarded? You are aware the early Christians hid the writings of the Apostles from non-believers t avoid them being destroyed right? The Dead Sea scrolls were hidden for the same purpose by the Essenes. This is such a brain dead take.

at least they had the stones to back their prophet and truly believed that he was receiving messages from god

They literally started their faith by going against the Prophet, they literally did the opposite.

 

[Sargon's wife's son]

Why did you get rid of the only two things that major religion relevant whites only and multiple wives I see no other reason to become Mormon besides those two things other than that your theology is just made of nonsense where Jesus is literally a space alien

 

[The best and greatest]

Okay.
There were 26 people who lied in the face of public and financials ostracization and who were willing to die on that testimony "just because".

Crazy people dont have to be reasonable or make sense. Its sort of their defining feature.

 

[Neodanthril]

started their faith by going against the Prophe

did or did not joesph smith claim that polygamy was revealed to him as legitimate by god?

 

[a hapless toad]

did or did not joesph smith claim that polygamy was revealed to him as legitimate by god?

You're ignoring the concept of continuous revelation. Smith wasn't the current prophet in 1890, Wilford Woodruff was.

 

[Neodanthril]

You're ignoring the concept of continuous revelation. Smith wasn't the current prophet in 1890, Wilford Woodruff was.

So what?

 

[Ughubughughughughughghlug]

16 women is still a lot. Joseph Smith liked the idea of starting his own religion and being an American Muhammad, which is why he did all this. It caught on because the pioneers liked the idea of America being a holy land.

I recall reading in The Psychedelic History of Mormonism, Magic and Drugs that Joseph Smith likely began doing these sexless marriages as a way to placate the women he didn't want to fuck.

My biggest problem with the polygamy (as somebody who has always been mystified people get so bent out of shape about it, genuinely do not understand why people give a single fuck if a man has multiple wives) is that they were doing these complex polyandrous and polygynous marriages secretly. If you have to do your shit secretly it starts looking a lot less like a genuine doctrine and more like sex pestery.

Smith wasn't some dumb hillbilly. He was homeschooled by his father, given access to lots of books, and interested in religion. He was well-read, even if he couldn't write. He would have known all about those Christian and Israeli traditions.

This. I remember my mind being blown when I was briefly a Mormon because of references to cedars in Lebanon (something I ignorantly thought was obscure, didn't realize it's a super famous thing). I dramatically underestimated how very, very well hayseeds in that day knew not just the Bible but by extension the Bronze Age and Classical world like the back of their hand. I also bought into the (dishonest) way the Church characterized him as just some gee-shucks-i-dont-know-anything-farmboy.

Truth of the matter is that there's evidence he may have had an eidetic memory, but whatever the case, Joseph Smith was a genuine genius in his own right. It's what made him so impressive, that he could recall obscure bullshit like temple garments (muh magic underwear) and urim and thummim (muh seerstones) and proxy baptisms for the dead (all things anti-Mormons fixate on that have Biblical or folk Christian bases), show exactly where in the Bible it came from and in doing so greatly enhance his credibility.

I know what you mean when you say dumb hillbilly, but there's the thing: hillbillies (and that's a more or less fitting description of this folk magic-practicing farm family of the Vermont-New York borderlands) aren't automatically dumb. You get these very old people that may not know jack shit about the world outside of the Bible and their immediate surroundings, but they know the Bible with the depth of someone that goes to seminary just from a life spent reading it over and over again, and supporting materials.

 

[a hapless toad]

So what?

So the fundamentalists DID start their faith by going against the Prophet.

 

[Ughubughughughughughghlug]

and call me crazy but im just not buying this "mormons were persecuted because they were intelligent hardworking honest men that just wanted to quietly practice their faith and the goyim were just jealous of their success," story since ive heard it before.

My understanding is that Mormons were attacked (in contrast to other communities, even group marriage ones like Oneida) because they would carpetbag. A little bit of financial chicanery, but in particular bloc voting in Mormon candidates. It may not have all been intentional or malicious, but when a huge group of people shows up literally overnight and suddenly becomes a major voting force in your county, pushing their own agenda, people get mad.

I don't know enough about it. The pro-Mormon histories I originally learned of course painted it all as bigotry, then I found some other stuff that was much more critical. But there was definitely something understandable about why Americans in places like Ohio, Missouri and Illinois had such a strong backlash, not to mention Smith's admiration of Muhammad and naked ambition to be the Cromwell-Muhammad of America.

 

[Neodanthril]

So the fundamentalists DID start their faith by going against the Prophet

Was Joseph Smith a prophet

 

[a hapless toad]

Was Joseph Smith a prophet

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuous_revelation

 

[Not 6 Foot]

Continuous revelation doesn't suddenly mean Joseph Smith wasn't your prophet. It's also heretical to basically anyone serious about their various Christian, Jewish, or Islamic/Muslim religious views.

It's concerning that so many Mormons are openly claiming to not really care much for what Joseph Smith said. He already made stuff up as he went. Now you're telling me you openly believe other people making things up as they go? That tells me you have no actual foundation for your beliefs. Sad, really.

 

[a hapless toad]

Continuous revelation doesn't suddenly mean Joseph Smith wasn't your prophet. It's also heretical to basically anyone serious about their various Christian, Jewish, or Islamic/Muslim religious views.

It's concerning that so many Mormons are openly claiming to not really care much for what Joseph Smith said. He already made stuff up as he went. Now you're telling me you openly believe other people making things up as they go? That tells me you have no actual foundation for your beliefs. Sad, really.

I'm not LDS so I'll leave the specifics to the actual Mormons here, but I'll clarify a bit further. It's not that Joseph Smith is no longer a prophet and his words are now entirely invalid, rather that there were prophets after him who had revelations that changed church practices.

The LDS Church believes apostolic revelation to be inspired, but not infallible. One leader wrote, "We consider God, and him alone, infallible; therefore his revealed word to us cannot be doubted, though we may be in doubt some times about the knowledge which we obtain from human sources, and occasionally be obliged to admit that something which we had considered to be a fact, was really only a theory."

Dallin H. Oaks explains: "Revelations from God ... are not constant. We believe in continuing revelation, not continuous revelation. We are often left to work out problems without the dictation or specific direction of the Spirit." Thus, the current prophet can clarify, correct or change any previous teachings.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revelation_in_Mormonism

 

[Eddie Riggs]

 

[Meat Target]

NGL, even if "soaking" is rules-lawyering your way around fornication, it still sounds romantic. Just chilling and taking each other in (literally).

 

[mindlessobserver]

that an act was recorded in the bible is not an endorsement of the behavior. nor that there are laws pertaining to polygamy an endorsement, unless you also want to argue for the legitimacy of slavery on the same account and a host of other blatantly unsavory things. regarding polygamy in the early church, i am certainly not seeing anything to suggest it was widespread, nevermind that the practice is repeatedly rebuked throughout the new testament, so again even if every single Christian from AD 33-316 was in a polygamus marraige it doesnt mean it would be right.

Polygamy also is really only practiced in tribal societies that engage in frequent warfare. Sometimes its just necessary for a man to have multiple wives because all the other men are dead. This can have social uses because it makes sure widows and wat not are taken care of if say, the tribe lost a major battle with another tribe and now half the men are gone. Its a way to maintain social cohesion and also quickly rebuild the population.

It becomes less stable the more civilized a society becomes. Polygamy becomes less a social utility and more socially destabilizing. Having multiple wives becomes more about status then necessity. It also leads to an inefficient household establishment and can cause resentment among unattached males that leads to revolution.

With respect to the biblical basis of Polygamy, Christ never talked about it, and neither really did any of the old testament prophets either. It is mentioned in the old testament because the old testament is largely the history of middle eastern tribals who practiced polygamy because the men were constantly getting killed fighting everyone from the Philistines to the Babylonians.

 

[John Badman]

@WelperHelper99 why are Mormons so fat?