An absolutist libertarian perspective on LGBT rights

"Wreckless hedonism" is such a retarded concern
Just because you have the right to jump off a bridge* doesn't mean that it's wise or encouraged to do so
It's a silly concern mainly used by chuds, but it's not an issue nonetheless, especially when you consider that most people, even the normies, agree with libertarian views on sex and basically just want to be left alone without the government bossing them around.
 
Under libertarian philosophy, there is no permissible, legitimate, or righteous way to prohibit you from discriminating against anyone without your consent.
In other words, "NO FAGGOTS/FURRIES/KIKES/NIGGERS/COMMUNISTS" signs are based and nobody has any right to use force against you because of them.
With that, I'm reminded of a Colorado baker that refused to bake a specific cake for a gay couple. In a just, libertarian society, the LGBTQ+ would be within its rights to deface, even destroy that business since you'd need "force" to enforce your beliefs. There'd be little recourse for the baker to follow through without an equal or greater "force" that libertarianism would need to "succeed." It's just one step closer to vigilantism and anarchy to where the Constitution would just turn into a suggestion.
 
With that, I'm reminded of a Colorado baker that refused to bake a specific cake for a gay couple. In a just, libertarian society, the LGBTQ+ would be within its rights to deface, even destroy that business since you'd need "force" to enforce your beliefs. There'd be little recourse for the baker to follow through without an equal or greater "force" that libertarianism would need to "succeed." It's just one step closer to vigilantism and anarchy to where the Constitution would just turn into a suggestion.
What the fuck? I spent a few minutes elaborating how that is not the case
Refusing to bake a cake for a couple - assuming no money changed hands beforehand - is not aggression
Defacing a business is aggression
If they went and defaced that business, the baker is perfectly within his rights to douse the LGBTQ+ in gasoline and set them on fire

Read again:
The only way to violate rights is to aggress against a peaceful person
In legalese, to threaten or cause harm to the physical integrity of the property of a person unwantonly
"Defacing, even destroying that business" is aggression
"Enforcing your beliefs" is, in almost every case, aggression
 
a libertarian legal system
even though fictional politics is gay, this reply kicks ass. incredibly informative.

the way you explain libertarianism makes it sound pretty cool, but i have a few concerns about how a society would enforce these rights and principles without aggression. a libertarian legal system kind of sounds like an oxymoron to me.
who would act as an intermediary between two parties in a legal dispute? who would pay that person? who ensures that this person is fair and not bribed? who will pay this new person? won't this line of questioning lead to a bureaucracy which requires taxes (an aggression as previously established) to exist? or am i retarded?
 
who would act as an intermediary between two parties in a legal dispute? who would pay that person? who ensures that this person is fair and not bribed? who will pay this new person? won't this line of questioning lead to a bureaucracy which requires taxes (an aggression as previously established) to exist? or am i retarded?
How I understand libertarianism is that the individual itself would need to enforce their own "rights" without the state or law interfering under a false guise that it's constitutional.

The only way to violate rights is to aggress against a peaceful person
In legalese, to threaten or cause harm to the physical integrity of the property of a person unwantonly
"Defacing, even destroying that business" is aggression
"Enforcing your beliefs" is, in almost every case, aggression
Who enforces that in libertarianism? There's no government, just the Constitution. There's nobody around to properly enforce it. It's left to interpretation, which can fall apart very quickly. See Portland and ANTIFA as an example.
 
a society would enforce these rights and principles without aggression. a libertarian legal system kind of sounds like an oxymoron to me.
Aggression is the use of violence against peaceful humans
If someone violates rights, they are, by definition, not a peaceful human

Now, admittedly, I personally am a hardliner when it comes to self-defense, and my position on the matter is not exactly the mainstream libertarian opinion. However, my opinion is logically grounded in natural law ethics. Basically, I reject "proportionality". In other words, if someone violates your rights (which can only be done by threatening or causing physical harm to your property without your consent, so slander/libel/blackmail/copyright infringement/bribery are perfectly legal unless you waive your rights to do these things) you have the right to shoot them or split their head open with a halberd as far as I am concerned.

Now, about enforcing contracts, since that is what most indocrinated statists are caught on about, the only forceful contract enforcement that would be permissible under libertarian philosophy is in situations that have the character of implicit theft.
What do I mean by this?
Imagine you decide to order an ordinary chainsaw from my store. You place your order and pay and you receive a crate with, dunno, nothing, a broken chainsaw, or a brick in it. This situation is, under the current legal system, "fraud", but praxeologically speaking, it is implicit theft, because I have taken your money without your consent (which was conditional upon you receiving an ordinary chainsaw in return). If I refuse to compensate you or fix the situation, you have every right to use force against me or get someone to use force against me.
who would act as an intermediary between two parties in a legal dispute? who would pay that person? who ensures that this person is fair and not bribed? who will pay this new person? won't this line of questioning lead to a bureaucracy which requires taxes (an aggression as previously established) to exist? or am i retarded?
I can give you a fairly lengthy writeup, but before I do, you gotta sincerely promise that you'll read it so I know I'm not gonna waste my effort.

How I understand libertarianism is that the individual itself would need to enforce their own "rights" without the state or law interfering under a false guise that it's constitutional.
Do you grow your own cows when you want beef? Do you make your own shoes? Do you build your own router?
While it is absolutely paramount that, under a libertarian system, your right to self-defense must be the holiest thing in the land, it is absolutely predictable and expected that, just like in every other situation, people will rely on the division of labor and specialized agencies to get these things done. What I wrote above (assure me you're gonna read my effortpost) also applies to you if you're interested in the subject. I typically refer to the work on private societies (covenant communities, private law societies, free societies) by Hans-Hermann Hoppe, who is one of the most based people on the planet
 
If it was actually contained to consensual behavior between adults behind closed doors I'd be almost maximalist libertarian when it came to gay rights.
But that's not what wound up happening. I'm not even sure you can really solidly blame the gays for it, the weird gender essentialism behind troonery is almost evenly split between AWFLs who want so, so bad to be good allies and male predators interested in grooming kids.
 
If it was actually contained to consensual behavior between adults behind closed doors I'd be almost maximalist libertarian when it came to gay rights.
But that's not what wound up happening. I'm not even sure you can really solidly blame the gays for it, the weird gender essentialism behind troonery is almost evenly split between AWFLs who want so, so bad to be good allies and male predators interested in grooming kids.
What there is in the current world is deeply in violation of libertarian principles, namely the fact that your right to discriminate against gays is infringed by the state. The state forces you to open up your property to gay people without your consent.
I recommend this entertaining video on the subject
 
What I wrote above (assure me you're gonna read my effortpost) also applies to you if you're interested in the subject.
I won't reply until I triple-read it. That may not be right away; I'm on the clock to not commit to reading a lengthy post.

Do you grow your own cows when you want beef?
No, I'd own a farm, breed my own cows and butcher them myself or find somebody to do it. The FDA would not exist under a libertarian society as it could be argued that they disrupt the right to "free trade."

Do you make your own shoes?
No. Evidently, you CAN through 3D printing or hiring your own crew of servants to do it for you. Shoemaking has turned dormant thanks to brands like Nikes and Adidas using sweat shops to mass produce sneakers to sell onto the market for cheap.

The state forces you to open up your property to gay people without your consent.
"We deserve the right to refuse service" would apply to total disruption within the business space. Example: say I own a shop that sells women's clothing. My audience is targeted for women, but I cannot refuse service to a man on the grounds that they're a man shopping in my establishment specifically designed for women.
 
My audience is targeted for women, but I cannot refuse service to a man on the grounds that they're a man shopping in my establishment specifically designed for women.
Under libertarian principles, prima facie, you have the god-given right to refuse service to men. Hell, you can refuse service to anybody you want. Total freedom of association - which also means freedom of disassociation. In other words, nobody has a right to shop in your establishment without your consent. Hell, you can refuse entry for ugly women if you want.

Let me emphasize that again. Prima facie, nobody has a "right" to enter your establishment. The establishment is your private property, and that means that you have the exclusive right to control it. The exclusive right, meaning that it's just you as the owner who has a right to decide what happens to that property. No such bullshit as "stakeholder capitalism" or government regulations. Your right to your property supercedes any other claim by anyone else.

Alright, I'm gonna start writing my effortpost on law and order in a libertarian society...
 
But that's not what wound up happening. I'm not even sure you can really solidly blame the gays for it, the weird gender essentialism behind troonery is almost evenly split between AWFLs who want so, so bad to be good allies and male predators interested in grooming kids.
LGBTQ+ rights as we know them today may very well bridge (or narrow) that gap between libertarianism and authoritarianism.

Libertarianism: I have the right to troon out my kids; you cannot report me for child abuse!
Authoritarianism: the state says I CAN troon out my kids and YOURS if I work for them!

Now, it's the children that will be the unwilling participants in their society.
 
This effortpost is mostly based on relevant writings by Murray Rothbard, Hans-Hermann Hoppe, and Stephan Kinsella. I recommend reading their work

At its core, libertarianism boils down to a legal philosophy. When libertarians talk about "private property", you can object that other philosophies also protect and respect property rights. The distinctive mark of libertarianism is its rules regarding particular property assignment, i.e. who is the owner of each contestable resource and how is that determined? I alluded to earlier that it starts with self-ownership, grounded in the fact that only you have direct control over your own body. What logically follows is appropriation of unowned things in nature using the body that you control. What logically follows from that is using your body and those things to produce other goods. What logically follows from that is that only non-coercive transfers of property titles from an earlier to a later possessor (trade, gift, donation, inheritance) are legitimate.

Let's call this libertarian concept of property rights the ground rules. In a libertarian order, each and every person and institution must obey these ground rules.
Now you can use different methods to answer the question "why do humans have rights?", such as natural law philosophy, Hoppe's argumentation ethics, or religious justifications. Personally, I'm really fond of the rationalist reasoning presented by Kinsella, in which he logically demonstrates that it is physically impossible to make a valid argument that rights don't exist.
In any case, in this libertarian order, nobody has any right to obtain property by means other than initial appropriation, production, or voluntary exchange (read: if I have no right to do X, you may use violence to prevent me from doing X). That means that every person (using their property) is permitted to compete against every other person in the production of all kinds of goods and services, unlike the current situation in which the state just prohibits certain activities.

This means that the production of law and order will also happen among freely financed competing service providers and companies, just like the production of all other goods and services.

I mentioned earlier that self-defense is holy, but not the most important aspect. The current statist practice is to systematically disarm the population whereas it is predictable that the opposite tendency will occur in a libertarian order, i.e. you can expect the populace to be armed. Logic and evidence show that more guns means less crime. If there is demand, I can do some additional effortposting on the philosophical foundation of gun rights, including points that are pretty much never made by gun right supporters.
With the division of labor, especially the more property you own or the wealthier society is, it is predictable that the bulk of the supply of defense and security services will come from specialized private police, insurance, and arbitration agencies.

The core difference between such a system and the current statist system can be summed up with "contract". The state essentially operates in a contractless vacuum. There is no contract between the citizen and the state. It's not set who owns what and what property is supposed to be protected. It's not set what service the state is to perform, what happens in case of an unsatisfactory performance by the state, nor what the price is that the "customer" has to pay for that "service". What happens is that the state unilaterally sets the rules of the game and changes them mid-play using legislation.

Imagine if I was a security provider, doesn't matter if I'm police or insurer or arbitrator, and I tell you the following:
I will make you no contractual guarantees at all. I am not going to tell you which exact things I'm considering protecting as "your property", nor am I going to tell you what my duty is if you think I'm not performing my service - but I definitely reserve the right to unilaterally determine my price for my undefined service.
Surely nobody would voluntarily pay for such a service.
Instead, freely financed security providers are expected to offer a contract to prospective customers. To be acceptable for voluntarily paying customers, these contracts must include clear property descriptions and clearly defined mutual duties, and they can only be changed with mutual consent by all parties. These contracts must also include what's going to happen in case of a conflict between the customer and the insurer, and in the case of a conflict between different insurers and their clients. It is expected that the parties agree to a trustworthy independent third party for arbitration.
These arbitrators are also freely financed and competing with other arbitrators and arbitration agencies. Their clients (insurers and the insured) expect them to make judgments that are considered fair by all parties. Only arbitrators who are able to make such judgments will be able to prevail in that market.

Consider fighting crime. Security providers (insurers) have to indemnify their clients in case of damages, or else they simply won't get any clients to begin with. Thus, they must be efficient in preventing crime, because if they fail to do so, they have to foot the bill. And they must be especially efficient in apprehending culprits, because only then they can make them pay for restitution and reduce their own costs. Compare this to the current statist practice in which police get their payment irrespective of their performance. Why bother working when you get paid for doing nothing? And the victim and restitution play no role whatsoever. Instead, the victim gets fucked over again because they, as taxpayers, foot the bill to financially support the incarcerated culprit (if they ever get apprehended in the first place).

It is predictable that no insurer will be willing to cover the risk of damages following from acts of provocation. Thus, it's likely that insured persons agree to refrain from provocations of all kinds. Also, it's likely that insured persons agree to abstain from all kinds of vigilantism (except maybe in very exceptional cases). The reasoning is that vigilantism creates insecurities and provokes retaliatory acts from third parties. In agreeing to follow orderly and transparent procedures whenever they feel wronged, such disturbances and corresponding costs can be avoided.

The persecution of victimless "crimes" will hardly play a role under libertarian conditions, and that can be proven logically. Unlike real crimes against property, these "crimes" doesn't create any victims. An "insurance" against such "crimes" would thus demand higher premiums. Hardly anybody would voluntarily pay more money for such a "protection", and it's likely that freely financed insurers would simply ignore victimless "crimes" as mere private matters.

Regarding self-defense, imagine if an insurer would tell you that, before he even thinks of protecting your property, you are to disarm yourself. Surely everybody would consider this a bad joke. What I expect is what you already see from some insurance companies today, such as rewarding owners of alarm systems and safes. I expect that you will get lower insurance premiums if you're armed and trained in using weapons.

Regarding the law itself, beyond the ground rules, and beyond a trend for law to become more affordable and more efficient, I predict two trends: A larger variability of the law and more harmonization of law.

[The enforcement of rights is] left to interpretation
Beyond the ground rules, I expect security providers to not just compete in terms of price and service, but also in terms of product. You'll probably have catholic producers providing canonical law, sandnigger producers providing islamic law, nonreligious producers providing secular law, etc. This is great because it means that you don't have to live under a "foreign" law.
Essentially, it means that, for example, canonical law only gets used to resolve intra-catholic conflicts. However, of course, a catholic can get into a conflict with a mudslime. If both systems of law come to the same, or sufficiently similar, conclusion, there won't be any problem. If, however, that doesn't happen, the "domestic" law becomes useless. However, everyone wants to be insured in such a case. So we go back to what I said earlier, namely that every insurer and every one of their clients contractually agrees to the judgment of a pre-selected arbitrator, who is not just independent, but also the mutual choice of both insurers. The arbitrator is selected because he is expected to make mutually acceptable judgments in cases of inter-group conflicts. If he fails to do that, guess what, you're fired.
So, from this constant cooperation of different insurers and independent arbitrators in resolving inter-group conflicts, I expect a tendency towards a harmonization of property law and contract law, as well as procedural law, evidence law, and arbitration law. Every insured person and insurer becomes a participant in an integrated system of comprehensive conflict avoidance and peacekeeping. Every conflict and every damage claim, regardless of where, between whom, and by whom against whom, falls within the jurisdiction of one or more precisely identifiable insurers, and it will be solved either using the "domestic" law of the individual insurer, or using the "international" arbitration law which was previously contractually agreed upon.

Enough effortposting for now, I hope this is informative
 
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There is no such thing as a victimless crime. Everything people does affects society - as retarded as Christians usually are they were right about the slippery slope of gay marriage.
 
There is no such thing as a victimless crime.
Under libertarian conditions, this is true. If there's no victim, surely there's no crime.
Yes, I know that's not what you meant...

Everything people does affects society
What is society? A miserable pile of secrets vague term for "other people".
If you grow cannabis in your fenced back yard, how does that affect other people? If you jerk off or flick your bean to nasty porn, how does that affect other people?
 
Under libertarian conditions, this is true. If there's no victim, surely there's no crime.
Yes, I know that's not what you meant...

What is society? A miserable pile of secrets vague term for "other people".
If you grow cannabis in your fenced back yard, how does that affect other people? If you jerk off or flick your bean to nasty porn, how does that affect other people?

Society can be the victim. Libertarians are being told no two times away from turning into sovereign citizens.

The funny thing about drugs is every illicit narcotic begins life as legal. The American public saw the affects of drugs like cocaine and heroin when they were available over the counter and shoved into every tonic at the drug store. We've seen what happens to places like Portland and San Francisco when cops are instructed to leave drug users alone. But yeah, keep crying about muh weed when we're within five years from it being federally legal.

We're in the middle of seeing that with pornography. The business is inherently exploitative to the actors and has given us a generation of troons and gooners.
 
secondly, libertarianism can only work in a moral society.
Strictly speaking, that's a tautology
Illibertarian people are simply incompatible with a peaceful society, therefore they must be physically removed
Add to that postulates like unlimited self-defense, pre-emptive self-defense, and reciprocity of rights (if you're a communist who wants to abolish property rights, congratulations, you waive your own property rights and your body and property can be homesteaded) and you've got a situation in which being a criminal or a jerkass is EXTREMELY expensive, if not straight up suicide
 
It's a silly concern mainly used by chuds, but it's not an issue nonetheless, especially when you consider that most people, even the normies, agree with libertarian views on sex and basically just want to be left alone without the government bossing them around.

Normies believe whatever narrative the television tells them to believe and are kept blissfully unaware of how degenerate most homosexuals actually are.
 
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There is no such thing as a victimless crime. Everything people does affects society - as retarded as Christians usually are they were right about the slippery slope of gay marriage.
the irony of using a meme of Penn even though he's now a raging pro homosexual Democrat with a transgender daughter who hates Christians and everything they stand for
 
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