World Of Darkness General (VtM, WtO, MtA, etc.)

[WhatIsThePunchline]

Uh... just do the Venture Bros. You can genuinely do that with Mage and it works perfectly; Dr. Venture and Dr. Orpheus are great examples of Mages.

That could work but I think I'd rather do a historic game in the 70s in that case.

 

[Hummingbird]

I just came here to whine about Mage, a game I loved in high school and college but whose 20th Anniversary edition might well be the most insufferable RPG book I've ever had the displeasure to read. Brucato's lunacy even infects the character creation chapter.

All takes on Mage welcome.

Out of curiosity, what do you find so insufferable about it?

 

[Mola Ram]

Out of curiosity, what do you find so insufferable about it?

The book is enormous, so it's hard to focus in on any one thing -- the emphasis on social justice (to the point that it almost feels like it wants to be Activist: The RPG), the general chip on the shoulder tone of so much of it, the needless larding up of what should be straightforward sections with endless discursive asides -- but I think there's a general lack of professionalism that rubbed me the wrong way. Compare a bit of the Character Creation chapter from Vampire 20 to Mage 20's equivalent section.

Vampire 20:

A character’s concept generally refers to who the character was before becoming a vampire. Many Kindred cling desperately to any salvageable aspects of their former selves — their self-image, their occupation, how they lived, what was unique about them. In their new nocturnal world, echoes of their mortal lives are all that stand between many Kindred and madness. Concept is important because it helps a vampire relate to the world. It’s not a numerical Trait, and it has no mechanical effect on the game. Its benefit is that it allows you to formulate a personality for your character, and it provides an anchor for a vampire who wishes to preserve her dwindling Humanity — or to rail against it. Some sample concepts are presented on p. 80. If you don’t see a concept you like, make one up! Its sole purpose is to help you express your character idea concisely.​

Mage 20:

Your answers to those questions provide the concept, a guide and key for every other element of that character. This concept also reveals the human side of your mage; our corporate shark, after all, might be a Syndicate Manager, a Ngoma officiator, a Hermetic wizard, or an Etherite visionary. At heart, though, he’s a creature of the corporate realm, with magicks, skills, and alliances that make him better at his job. A handful of potential concepts can be found on the Character Creation Process chart, though you can feel free to make up your own concepts too. Once you’ve figured out your basic concept, use that as a sort of blueprint to guide the mage’s eventual development. No one, no matter how uncomplicated she might appear to be, is a static, unchanging stereotype. Sure, our corporate raider might look like a typical Wall Street asshole; he might even start off his career as the sort of one-percenter scum you’d like to see dragged behind a team of mules and then shot. Maybe he even thought of himself in those terms, gazing in the mirror of his richly-appointed bathroom every morning on his way to work. What if, however, that Wall Street predator has a change of heart? What if he Awakens to a greater reality? What if he never really was what he appears, on the surface, to be? Maybe he’s pretending to be a simple-minded corporate monster while actually pursing a totally different agenda… or perhaps he is a corporate monster, a monster whose Enlightened Path includes dealing in the fine Art of Desire.​

Apart from the sheer wordiness (it's clear why this thing was nearly 700 pages long and required multiple volumes), why the obnoxious tone; the assumptions about how the reader perceives "the one percent"? This should be a short, to the point bit of technical writing in what is among the most introductory sections of the book, and yet it's full of roundabout writing, tryhard descriptions, and obscure allusions (the Art of Desire is a specific sort of magic most familiar to players of Sorcerers Crusade). The book is full of this sort of thing, and it makes it a terrible slog to get through ... and that's before you get to the magic rules!

 

[Techpriest]

>Old Mage
>Not wordy and pretentious as fuck
Pick one

 

[Morethanabitfoolish]

The preachy tone is a carry over from the prior one, just through a more modern lens. Arguably it contributed to the Technocracy being so popular. What annoys me about 20th edition is it is so pop culture overdosed I get mildly annoyed just reading it. Which continued to the How Do You Do That book too.

 

[Steinercard]

>Old Mage
>Not wordy and pretentious as fuck
Pick one

Mage was the most wordy but that was because Mages were the Reddit Neckbeards of WoD before it was cool. It had a charm based on that. Similar to Legacy of Kain games I guess. But nowadays you actually have to take all that shit seriously along with danger hair waffling

 

[Mola Ram]

Mage was the most wordy but that was because Mages were the Reddit Neckbeards of WoD before it was cool. It had a charm based on that. Similar to Legacy of Kain games I guess. But nowadays you actually have to take all that shit seriously along with danger hair waffling

Maybe it's just that a combative, in-your-face tone (which I admit was certainly present in old Mage, if not quite so heavily in the corebooks themselves) was less cringe-inducing when Brucato wasn't in his 60s.

 

[Tactical Wizard]

Maybe it's just that a combative, in-your-face tone (which I admit was certainly present in old Mage, if not quite so heavily in the corebooks themselves) was less cringe-inducing when Brucato wasn't in his 60s.

He’s recently cleared out his Twitter.

However, his Wordpress is still up.

 

[Mola Ram]

He’s recently cleared out his Twitter.

However, his Wordpress is still up.

He sounds literally insane.

 

[Corn Flakes]

Mage was the most wordy but that was because Mages were the Reddit Neckbeards of WoD before it was cool. It had a charm based on that. Similar to Legacy of Kain games I guess. But nowadays you actually have to take all that shit seriously along with danger hair waffling

Mage was also the most wordy because it was the most abstract and conceptual of the three main splats (and of the extended family Changeling sort of came close). That bit @Mola Ram quoted shouldn't be any wordier than the others, though. It's literally a universal Storyteller system element, it shouldn't need to be fully rewritten for each splat.

 

[Lithos]

For some reason, I feel I should add Werewolf 20's Character Concept because it's simple:

Step One: Character Concept
Before you start spending points to define your
character’s capacities, you need to develop a character
concept. At this point, you only need a general idea of who
your character is and what she does. Make it something
interesting that you will enjoy playing for the long haul,
but make sure that she fits in with the rest of the pack. As
you progress through the character creation process, you’ll
probably want to change or adjust your concept to reflect
some of the choices you make, but it gives you a starting
point. Treat your character concept like your character’s
thesis statement. An example: “My character stayed in
an abusive home to protect her little brother, and had her
First Change when her mother beat her. Waking up to
find her parents dead, she spends her time looking after
her brother because nobody else will.”
At this stage, you need to make three choices to
support your concept. Choose your character’s breed
(native form), her auspice (role in Garou society), and
her tribe (a group that claims her as a member). Make
sure that your choices reinforce the core of your concept;
the better you can relate each aspect to your concept, the
more complete your character will be.

It's like it kind of knows that most players are min-maxers who only look at the dots, and is somehow begging them to actually make a "character".

I've been enjoying Werewolf a lot, as evidenced by my posts, but man, the "veteran" players are... unique.

 

[Tactical Wizard]

He sounds literally insane.

File him under “lost what was left of his mind when not everyone fell all over themselves for Obama”

 

[Syaoran Li]

He sounds literally insane.

It's because he is

 

[knightlautrec]

For some reason, I feel I should add Werewolf 20's Character Concept because it's simple:


It's like it kind of knows that most players are min-maxers who only look at the dots, and is somehow begging them to actually make a "character".

I've been enjoying Werewolf a lot, as evidenced by my posts, but man, the "veteran" players are... unique.

Most of the Vets I've met are pretty decent and not too turboautism. Not as single minded to crush newbies (like say VtM oldfags) but certainly had an idea of how the social and heriarchy of the game works - very strict about it but I get it. Garou have the tenants and the rigidity they do to stop the Wyrm.

I am enjoy Werewolf a ton honestly. I'm not saying it's eeked past Vampire for my favourite splat but it's getting there.

 

[Emperor Julian]

I just came here to whine about Mage, a game I loved in high school and college but whose 20th Anniversary edition might well be the most insufferable RPG book I've ever had the displeasure to read. Brucato's lunacy even infects the character creation chapter.

All takes on Mage welcome.

while goatfuckers writting is as preachy and pretentious as usual he also comes up with some ideas which could work if re written by a gm. Book of the fallen is inexplicably good once you skip the first chapter and ignore the insistance of using evil kabbalah as the definitive trait of nephandi. Personally I though 3rd ed was the high point for mage and phils grubby paws arnt on it.

But compared to some his colleagues the mans a bastion of sanity and morality.

 

[Adamska]

while goatfuckers writting is as preachy and pretentious as usual he also comes up with some ideas which could work if re written by a gm. Book of the fallen is inexplicably good once you skip the first chapter and ignore the insistance of using evil kabbalah as the definitive trait of nephandi. Personally I though 3rd ed was the high point for mage and phils grubby paws arnt on it.

But compared to some his colleagues the mans a bastion of sanity and morality.

Changing Breeds would like to disagree vehemently with you. That was him endlessly revealing he wants to fuck cats along with his little fanclub who pretty much agreed to everything he wanted in said book.

The only positive in it are the Aztec Terrorist Hummingbirds.

 

[knightlautrec]

Changing Breeds would like to disagree vehemently with you. That was him endlessly revealing he wants to fuck cats along with his little fanclub who pretty much agreed to everything he wanted in said book.

The only positive in it are the Aztec Terrorist Hummingbirds.

Also the War of Rage / Changing Breeds kinda reveals all these weird writer's bias against Garou. Like all these writers and their pet fera trying to paint werewolves as being dicks for zero reason of being dicks other than 'I wanna make Garou look like assholes'. Like I get it. Garou are brutal and warlike like wolves and kind of assholes but some of it is so evil villain hand rubbing together.

Like 'wow look at this AMAZING healing gifts wereboars had but those pesky Garou had to genocide the lot of them and that knowledge is now all lost! Behold werewolves are the dickheads all along!'

It's real dumb. Fera are dumb in general.

 

[Techpriest]

Also the War of Rage / Changing Breeds kinda reveals all these weird writer's bias against Garou. Like all these writers and their pet fera trying to paint werewolves as being dicks for zero reason of being dicks other than 'I wanna make Garou look like assholes'. Like I get it. Garou are brutal and warlike like wolves and kind of assholes but some of it is so evil villain hand rubbing together.

Like 'wow look at this AMAZING healing gifts wereboars had but those pesky Garou had to genocide the lot of them and that knowledge is now all lost! Behold werewolves are the dickheads all along!'

It's real dumb. Fera are dumb in general.

The whole point of the war of rage is the werewolves are their own worst enemy. They fight whoever whenever. The rage is everything and no matter how self destructive, they will rage because that’s what they were made to do. Old world’s Fera were fine. You had some real stand out breeds with interesting concepts and characters you could make with them. I’ve always wanted to play a cheesy “mighty morphing Gaian rangers” style game with everyone going for a different breed.

New World’s changing breeds book is absolute hot garbage outside of like two or three things: the bird shifters (which are great), the idea of the tiger/big cat shifters, and Old Man Possum. That’s the book Phil had a big hand in writing and boy does it show. War against the Pure, a werewolf book that came out around the same time, has 1000% better rules and lore for a variety of shifters and better instructions on how to make your own.

 

[ThatOneLurker]

I came across this podcast that tells of a splat that didn't make it called, Alien the Hidden. It's interesting.

Other than that, is there anything you like about v5? There are updates that they've done on some of the characters that I've liked. Anastasia (Milwaukee by Night) has managed to free herself from her sire and make a name as one of Decker's judges. It's nice to see her be a stronger person without it being the SJW kind of "strong female".

I like the idea of a hunger system. Sometimes, I even like it in play. I think the idea of hunger instead of blood points is way more mechanically appropriate for a vampire.

Vampires aren't running on what is essentially mana anymore and feeding isn't an after thought. The primal hunger part of being a vampire is always at the forefront and something that a vampire has to worry about. You can't just walk into a night club anymore, find someone you want to feed on, and then take all but a single blood point and walk out. Hunting, and hunting methods, actually feel like something a vampire has to take time to plan carefully—less they fuck up or end up accidentally killing someone by taking too much blood. Granted that system sort of exists in V20 but it doesn't make much sense since as long as you don't take the last blood point the victim gets off with hospitalization and rest—even if that means 9/10 blood points have been drank by the vampire.

That means in a raw, no homebrew game, even the most wasteful of my players only ever needs to feed every two or three sessions—at least in the games I've played, and we're talking about high generation games where everyone has between 10-13 blood points. Maybe my players are too conservative and don't ever use disciplines or vitae enough, but that's fucking ridiculous. Half the time it feels like the characters aren't even vampires at all.

But feeding and hunger in play for V5 can definitely be annoying and can straight up kill a game if a storyteller isn't careful. You never, ever, want a situation where players are walking around with three or four hunger. That's only two or even less steps away from a hunger frenzy that can straight up ruin a game depending on where it's taking place. I've had games where players frenzied at important meetings with princes and whatnot by just casually trying to activate Blush of Life after forgetting they forgot to activate it earlier. It's been said before but V5 went to the complete opposite extreme with hunger to the point managing it feels like a tedious fucking chore that can lead to hour long scenes of players trying to pick people up at a dive so they can feed.

 

[Mola Ram]

Book of the fallen is inexplicably good once you skip the first chapter and ignore the insistance of using evil kabbalah as the definitive trait of nephandi.

All I remember about Book of the Fallen before tossing it aside in disgust is Phil's #thathappened story about domestic abuse in his shitty PNW neighborhood and lots and lots of trembly admonitions about abuse and abusers in general. Which may be a laudatory goal, but struck me as totally inappropriate for an RPG sourcebook about evil wizards.

Personally I though 3rd ed was the high point for mage and phils grubby paws arnt on it.

And I thought Sorcerers Crusade was Mage's high point, and that has Phil all over it. Something bad happened to that guy's brain between the end of the original WoD and his return to Mage 20.