Science Abortions are for everyone – it’s time for fully inclusive services - Abortions4All - ITT: arguments for post-birth abortion

A conversation on how we think about abortion access and how inclusive our services are is long over due. For far too long, the abortion movement has championed access for all those that require abortion care but with little acknowledgement of the wider structures that govern our reproductive health.

While it is estimated that a quarter of all pregnancies end in abortion – the idea that abortion is always a clear choice is far too simplistic and minimises the experiences of lots of those seeking abortion care. Recent Department of Health and Social Care (DHSC) data revealed that black women are more likely to report a consecutive abortion compared to their white and Asian counterparts.

While the difference is small, there are many reasons for this that typical pro-choice narratives simply fail to address. Those racialised as non-white are likely to be paid 10% less than their white counterparts even when educational attainment is adjusted for. Black women are at heightened risk of experiencing intimate partner violence and less likely to receive adequate support when they do report it.


Black motherhood is plagued with sterotypes of young black teenage mothers who are incompetent or dependent on governement welfare. A recent report into maternal deaths within the UK revealed that black women are five times more likely than their white counterparts to die in childbirth and black babies are more likely to be stillborn. These statistics are not clearly explained by increased comorbidities (the presence of more than one disorder in the same person) or socio-economic conditions amongst black people. A recent Royal College of Obstetric and Gynaecology event highlighted how prejudice and unconscious bias affects the healthcare provided to black patients, including having their pain taken less seriously.

For many black women, becoming pregnant goes beyond traditional anxieties like “how will I cope?” Instead, some consider the rather traumatic question: “Could I die?”

The circumstances for gender non-conforming people is even more bleak with very few medical studies on their experiences of accessing healthcare. In one small study, the majority of respondents were not using contraception, as they incorrectly believed that gender-affirming hormones would also act as contraception, leaving them at possible risk of unplanned pregnancy. While data from the US shows that poor reproductive health is even greater among black trans and non-binary people, with significant rates of sexually transmitted infections and HIV; there is very little information on their experiences of accessing healthcare within a UK context.

It is difficult to determine how many gender non-conforming people are accessing abortion services as the current Department of Health reporting forms fail to include a box that collects gender information. However, the same form still includes a section on marital status, which is as useful as my passport has proven to be in 2020. Despite limited public health data, we do know that trans and non-binary people have poor sexual and reproductive health, but our institutions still treat this population as if they do not exist. How can you advocate for service improvement for populations that are not recorded as existing in the first place?

William Horn, a freelance writer who was originally based in London but now lives in Brooklyn, started taking gender affirming hormones nearly 10 years ago. He told me he feels that healthcare providers fail to consider anything outside of taking hormones.

Frequently, arguments against trans inclusive facilities position trans people as a threat to our safety – despite the data actually showing that cis-gender people continue to be much more of a threat to theirs. For those trans men and non-binary people who do continue with their pregnancy, there is little medical information available and many experience transphobia and erasure from services. There is an increase in intimate partner violence experienced by pregnant people, so we as providers should consider the additional mental burden that continuing with a pregnancy may take on those that already live in a world where survival can be a challenge.

The idea that individuals choose to have an abortion is outdated and fails to account for the structural dimensions that can lead some groups to have an one. Until we start to both acknowledge and understand these within our healthcare system, our abortion services will continue to overlook large groups of people and fail to take a holistic approach to their life circumstances.

In the United States, more providers are familiar with terms such as reproductive justice, a term coined by women of colour to highlight how structural oppression affects reproductive health – the application to the UK continues to lag behind. Recent Black Lives Matter protests where black pregnant women hold signs expressing their concern for the safety of their unborn child has brought to the fore how these issues overlap and intersect; we can longer address them in isolation.

Mara Clarke founder of the Abortion Support Network, an organisation that ensures those that require an abortion have access to the financial means to do so, says: “We know that many of our clients have been migrants, refugees, asylum seekers, members of the Irish traveller community. We don’t ask our clients who they are or how they got pregnant. We don’t ask if they are women or what their gender identity is. We don’t care, and we know that women and pregnant people with money can access services without having to explain or justify themselves. As an abortion fund, we want any person who needs an abortion to have that same experience.

While many in the sector are starting to understand the importance of acknowledging the diverse experiences of abortion, it is integral to providing good quality care that we go a step further and demand better research, data collection and information on the experiences of those that are most marginalised by society.
It is time that we build our movements with diverse experiences in mind and it is time that our abortion services reflected the stories of the communities that we serve.
 
Dismembering fetuses isn't a normal procedure in abortions. I know prolifers have this weird fetish for dismemberment, but it happens rarely if it happens at all. True, I cant say it's never ever happened (if nothing else I'm sure there have been cases where women have had to wait so long before being allowed to abort dead fetuses that the fetus started rotting and decomposing to the point its limbs separated), but it would be an extremely rare thing. Most fetuses don't even have limbs at all when they're aborted, because they haven't reached that far in gestation.

If you want to carry a brainless or inside out fetus to term you do you, but that's something I think more people than not would rather abort because if nothing else they want to spare the child they wanted from suffering further.
What do you think a suction abortion is?
The fetus is pulled apart and suctioned out of the uterus.
I've seen films of it performed, and those fetuses most certainly do have recognizable arms, legs, ribcages, and so on.
 
What do you think a suction abortion is?
The fetus is pulled apart and suctioned out of the uterus.
I've seen films of it performed, and those fetuses most certainly do have recognizable arms, legs, ribcages, and so on.
Again, most fetuses don't even have limbs when most abortions happen. Or they're only starting to develop tiny buds. Even with suction abortions, there usually arent any limbs to severe in the first place.

Currently in the US most abortions are done with pills most women choose to take in their own homes. The result as mentioned looks more like a heavy period than anything else, and is flushed or chucked in the trash like you'd do with any other soiled period stuff.

Gonna link any of those videos btw?
 
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I don't think most people would disagree that shit like the Hartley hooligans and Jaxon Buell don't have lives worth living (though at least the latter was confirmed as incapable of suffering since he had nothing beyond a brain stem).

Or hell, what's arguably worse are the ones that aren't potatoes brain wise and just have bodies that are completely fucked like Tinslee Adams and the butterfly skin disease. So they're fully concious and aware of being in agonizing pain.

Yep, heaven forbid someone abort that shit while it's still a fetus.
Nobody on here has disagreed with that. You don’t address the argument because you know yours sucks rotten ass. The go to argument for pro-aborts is that inconvenience abortions being okay is because the child will just be put into foster care and being poor is literally worse than death. Conservative areas have higher numbers of Downies because you all can’t stop murdering your children. Pro-aborts never follow the logic of their own argument or else they would argue for sweeping eugenics, be pro-suicide, Malthusian, etc. It’s because abortionists are selfish, weak, and think children exist for their benefit.
 
Again, most fetuses don't even have limbs when most abortions happen. Or they're only starting to develop tiny buds. Even with suction abortions, there usually arent any limbs to severe in the first place.

Gonna link any of those videos btw?
Nobody on here has disagreed with that. You don’t address the argument because you know yours sucks rotten ass. The go to argument for pro-aborts is that inconvenience abortions being okay is because the child will just be put into foster care and being poor is literally worse than death. Conservative areas have higher numbers of Downies because you all can’t stop murdering your children. Pro-aborts never follow the logic of their own argument or else they would argue for sweeping eugenics, be pro-suicide, Malthusian, etc. It’s because abortionists are selfish, weak, and think children exist for their benefit.
Like it or not, kids are expensive as hell. People who are poor and don't have the resources to properly care for them are more likely to abort (if they can access it). Those that don't or are unable to often struggle to provide even basic needs and their children suffer as a result.

Talk to a bunch of former foster kids, guarentee at least a few will say they would rather have never been born than pur through the hell that is the foster system. It has the negative reputation it does for a very good reason.

Speaking of baby killing, actual, straight up infanticide used to be pretty common in just about every society. Like people would take whole ass babies and drown them, smother them, incinerate them, leave them outside to die of exposure, chuck them in piles of manure, etc, because they didnt have the resources to care for them. Wanna know what made it rare in the west? Access to safe, reliable contraception and abortion.
 
Politician’s dance around
So are you or are you not pro-suicide and/or eugenics?

Abortion is infanticide. If people aren’t going to take care their of their children they should just get their uterus removed and/or tubes tied.

You know how the failure rate of the IUD is amazingly low?

Here’s the failure rate. He’s very cute.


Nothing‘s foolproof except inceldom.
Getting sterilized is foolproof. None of them ever consider that though because after they’re done riding the cock/pussy carousel they may want a person-shaped pet to play with.
 
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Crisis pregnancy centers help young mothers during their pregnancy and several years after the birth of their child. Which is why they get shit on by the media; doesn't fit the "pro-birth-not-pro-life" narrative.
Nah, they get shit on by the media because they're Christian propaganda dispensaries that pretend to be real abortion clinics. They only exist to convince women who want abortions to change their mind. Some movies they make women watch are up on youtube and they're pretty funny, lol.
propagandada.png

Abortion is infanticide. If people aren’t going to take care their of their children they should just get their uterus removed and/or tubes tied.
Abortions during the early stages of pregnancy isn't. For a while, fetuses are mindless cellular goo. They have less sentience than the cows we kill to make burgers. That goo has the potential to develop into a child, but so does all sperm and men don't generally feel guilty when they let their potential offspring die on cumsocks. 🤔
 
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Nah, they get shit on by the media because they're Christian propaganda dispensaries that pretend to be real abortion clinics. They only exist to convince women who want abortions to change their mind. Some movies they make women watch are up on youtube and they're pretty funny, lol.
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https://youtube.com/watch?v=ZjbiRBCsC7U

Abortions during the early stages of pregnancy isn't. For a while, fetuses are mindless cellular goo. They have less sentience than the cows we kill to make burgers. That goo has the potential to develop into a child, but so does all sperm and men don't generally feel guilty when they let their potential offspring die on cumsocks. 🤔
How early?

They only exist to convince women who want abortions to change their mind
Why is this bad?
 
I'm no expert, but until the sixth week they have no brains. I'd say prior to that, they're definitely more goo than human. Even after their brains start developing there has to be a period of time during which they have less sentience than animals we kill regularly.

Why is this bad?
Because it's propaganda and women who go to crisis pregnancy centers aren't there for that. It's like going to a restaurant, ordering a steak and getting served a plate of shit instead because the restaurant is a secretly a scat fetish sex club.
 
I'm no expert, but until the sixth week they have no brains. I'd say prior to that, they're definitely more goo than human. Even after their brains start developing there has to be a period of time during which they have less sentience than animals we kill regularly.
They have heartbeats at 2weeks. It’s just your opinion that unborn children have no worth.


Waaah pro-lifers mean.
Literally so what? ~98% of abortions are done because the woman is weak minded and selfish.

If it matters this much to pro-aborts they could just get their tubes tied so they could have as much unprotected, consequences-free sex as they want.
 
They have heartbeats at 2weeks. It’s just your opinion that unborn children have no worth.
Having a heartbeat doesn't mean having consciousness. People who are braindead have heartbeats. Cows have heartbeats. Flies have heartbeats. Doctors keep the heart of corpses beating to keep their organs fresh before they transplant them into someone else.

If you think a heartbeat is what makes a life have worth, do you think abortion before 2 weeks is acceptable?

Literally so what? ~98% of abortions are done because the woman is weak minded and selfish.

If it matters this much to pro-aborts they could just get their tubes tied so they could have as much unprotected, consequences-free sex as they want.
It's weak minded and selfish to want to take proper care of your children? Raising a kid in a bad household or giving it up for adoption so it becomes trapped in the foster care system seems cruel. And why blame the mother alone? Oopsie babies happen to married couples too.

As for tubal ligation yes, it seems like a good option for many. Safe sex is important. It seems risky if you want children later, though, because not all reversal surgeries are successful.
 
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Again, most fetuses don't even have limbs when most abortions happen. Or they're only starting to develop tiny buds. Even with suction abortions, there usually arent any limbs to severe in the first place.

Currently in the US most abortions are done with pills most women choose to take in their own homes. The result as mentioned looks more like a heavy period than anything else, and is flushed or chucked in the trash like you'd do with any other soiled period stuff.

Who honestly gives a shit outside of budding psychopaths that can stomach killing children as long as they can't recognize them when you're done, and the pro-life activists that keep trying to pander to them for some arcane reason?


Abortions during the early stages of pregnancy isn't. For a while, fetuses are mindless cellular goo. They have less sentience than the cows we kill to make burgers. That goo has the potential to develop into a child, but so does all sperm and men don't generally feel guilty when they let their potential offspring die on cumsocks. 🤔

A human is a human, and a fetus is necessarily a human at all stages of gestation.

It has its own DNA that will at best be shared with monozygotic twins, so it's not a mere extension of the mother at the beginning. From the fertilization of the ovum, the zygote divides into more cells that constantly array themselves into the various structures that comprise a human body; the fetus is alive, consequently, as this would not occur if it wasn't. It is distinct from anything else that you could term as a mass of cells because the development is ordered and tends towards the complex structure that is the human body. Under normal circumstances, the fetus is destined to grow into a human neonate by virtue of its lineage-- not a cow, not a dog, and not a dolphin. It develops to the form of a newborn, but then again, the newborn also develops into a child who develops into a mature adult, and it'd be asinine to claim that a child is somehow less human than a mature adult. The newborn will also acquire more complex brain function as it grows, not unlike when they were in gestation and growing a brain-- the "sentience" argument is poor, especially when we still consider the comatose and those in a persistent vegetative state human.

It's equally asinine to suggest that a sperm or ovum has the same potential as a growing zygote. Read a book.

It's weak minded and selfish to want to take proper care of your children?

I don't think killing your children is "taking proper care of them".

Raising a kid in a bad household or giving it up for adoption so it becomes trapped in the foster care system seems cruel.

You write like children can't overcome a bad household or children can't leave the foster care system into a loving family, and so they should die because of it.

If we need to improve the foster care system or do more good by the poor and disadvantaged, then we can work towards that instead of abiding feticide. But advocating for abortion because a child might turn out poor is idiotic-- you can turn out poorly no matter how much money your family has, and you can become well off in character even if you're coming from a "bad household" or the foster care system.
 
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It's not an infant yet. You can REEEEE all you want, but that doesn't make you right. And it's not murder either. Murder is unlawful. Abortion isn't.
I hope you don't define the concept of murder by it's legal status. That's one of the stupidest things ever written on this site.
 
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So are you or are you not pro-suicide and/or eugenics?

Abortion is infanticide. If people aren’t going to take care their of their children they should just get their uterus removed and/or tubes tied.


Getting sterilized is foolproof. None of them ever consider that though because after they’re done riding the cock/pussy carousel they may want a person-shaped pet to play with.
Actually tons of us want to get sterilized (I've mentioned before I want a hysto). It's just that even getting your tubes tied can be difficult if not impossible to find a doctor willing to do. Particularly if you're under 30, don't have at least 3 kids, are unmarried, there are tons of excuses women get to be denied sterilization. Men generally have an easier time getting fixed though
 
It's not an infant yet. You can REEEEE all you want, but that doesn't make you right. And it's not murder either. Murder is unlawful. Abortion isn't.

The only thing you're good for is pointing out worthless technicalities, because you legitimately lack the brainpower to be any more useful.

I don't see why something being alive and human means it matters. Lab grown human tissue is alive but nobody treats it as if it were sacred.

Lab grown tissue does not array itself into a whole human body.

I think what we disagree on is what makes a human life important. My opinion is that without sentience a human body is an empty shell. I think there's nothing immoral about pulling the plug on a human who is in a persistent vegetative state and there's nothing wrong with killing a clump of human cells that can't think or feel.

You seem to assign value to the shell rather than the soul.

The issue at hand isn't "what makes a human life important", it's "what constitutes a human life". If the subject descends from humans and the subject is not dead, then they are human and need to be spoken of and treated as such. The "thinking and feeling" litmus test is myopic and generally poor; you're unable to definitively state the very moment the child begins to "think or feel" during gestation, and the child develops greater and greater awareness as they grow-- indeed, there are perceptual features (e.g. object permanence) the child doesn't develop until months down the line. The resultant implication that they must be "less human" is nonsensical, however-- there's no such thing. You're either human or you're not. They possess a "soul" merely by continuing to live.

Furthermore, don't get to have an opinion as it pertains to something as weighty as human life. This isn't an academic question-- at hand is the matter of whether we brutally murder millions of children out of caprice. The stakes demand that there be a right answer to this question. If you're not willing to be definitive, you have nothing worth communicating.

Why, because they can't grow into babies on their own? Fetuses can't either, they need a womblike environment to develop.

Fetuses have the DNA that constitutes a human, which is why they grow into humans. A sperm cell or an ovum only has half those genes, which is why they don't ever develop into a human by itself. Do not die on this hill of equating a growing fetus to a gamete-- it's a waste of everyone's time.

They're not children. Until a certain point, they're alive in the same way plants are alive.

Except that they're not plants, Aristotle. Neither of their progenitors are plants.

Actually tons of us want to get sterilized

There is little to no public discussion about sterilization, and nary a campaign to make sterilization in your youth more acceptable in medicine. Abortion is generally framed as birth control, for when all other birth control fails.
 
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The only thing you're good for is pointing out worthless technicalities, because you legitimately lack the brainpower to be any more useful.



Lab grown tissue does not array itself into a whole human body.



The issue at hand isn't "what makes a human life important", it's "what constitutes a human life". If the subject descends from humans and the subject is not dead, then they are human and need to be spoken of and treated as such. The "thinking and feeling" litmus test is myopic and generally poor; you're unable to definitively state the very moment the child begins to "think or feel" during gestation, and the child develops greater and greater awareness as they grow-- indeed, there are perceptual features (e.g. object permanence) the child doesn't develop until months down the line. The resultant implication that they must be "less human" is nonsensical, however-- there's no such thing. You're either human or you're not. They possess a "soul" merely by continuing to live.
So do you agree with Mama Nails demanding her braindead daughter Jahi be not removed from a ventilator for years until the rest of her body finally went the way her brain did? You agree with her putting on the worst Weekend at Bernie's remake ever and acting like a corpse was somehow alive and capable of recovery?

It's wild people on this site clutch pearls about abortion when we have threads on people like Sammie Bushart and Kailyn Wilcher who don't even begin to take proper care of their kids and really, really should've had abortions (as well as people like Abby Brown who did make the responsible choice and abort).
 
You seem to assign value to the shell rather than the soul.

I think it's less that people assign value to the shell rather than the soul, then it is assigning value to something that could potentially have a soul.

Sure, the fetus may not be able to think or feel, but being aborted never gives it the chance to. That's probably why there are people so adamant against abortion.

Me personally, I think it should only happen very early on or unless there are medical concerns/sexual abuse going on. Beyond that, I think many people are way too irresponsible about this sort of thing and see pregnancy as an inconvenience or something that just "happens" rather than something that should be celebrated and properly planned out.

If you don't want to have kids, use protection. I really don't see why so many people have issue with this.
 
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