One of the biggest wins to come from the streaming era is the emphasis studios put on the animation medium. Across the board, we’re seeing an influx of not only chart-topping children’s animation like Netflix’s record-breaking and Oscar-winning
KPop Demon Hunters, but a surge of wonderful and original adult animation movies and television. At the Annecy International Animation Film Festival, Collider’s
Steven Weintraub had the pleasure of speaking with three of
Prime Video’s most creative forces in this sphere,
Invincible creator
Robert Kirkman,
Hazbin Hotel creator
Vivienne Medrano, and
The Legend of Vox Machina creator
Sam Riegel.
While all three shows are vastly different, ranging from superhero to fantasy, they all have a few things in common. First, in a time when
too many shows get the axe after only one season, each of these not only has a healthy run, but is also
renewed and working on future seasons. Second,
they’re all original, though Kirkman’s is adapted from his comics with
Cory Walker and
Ryan Ottley, and
Vox Machina is adapted from a
Critical Role TTRPG campaign. And finally,
they’re all adult animation, taking risks, and changing the way viewers look at the medium.
Don’t miss the full, wide-ranging conversation below, where the trio discusses pushing the boundaries of live action, how working with Prime Video has allowed them to stay true to the stories they set out to tell, and how the storytellers themselves continue to prove that animation has the potential to move beyond Disney and kids’ shows. Plus, Medrano shares a raunchy tease from
Helluva Boss Season 3, and the three of them share the wildest scenes they’ve gotten away with and discuss what an
Invincible,
Hazbin Hotel, and
Vox Machina crossover episode would look like.
What Would an 'Invincible' x 'Hazbin Hotel' x 'Vox Machina' Crossover Look Like?
"We’d have to leave the Viltrumites out. They’d just try to murder everybody."
COLLIDER: If Prime Video forced you to do a massive three-way crossover episode between Invincible, Hazbin Hotel, and The Legend of Vox Machina, what would it be about?
VIVIENNE MEDRANO: Oh gosh, it would have to probably be like the multiverse, because that's the only way to make the tones work.
SAM RIEGEL: Everybody loves multiverse shows. [Laughs]
MEDRANO: I know. Those are the best things ever.
ROBERT KIRKMAN: That’s the only instance where I would allow an
Invincible musical.
MEDRANO: Oh, yes. That would be fun, actually.
RIEGEL: That would be great. An
Invincible musical, you guys do the music, my character can sing, and at the end of every song, your characters can just kill someone.
MEDRANO: Somebody dies every time.
KIRKMAN: It writes itself.
Which characters would immediately become best friends, and which characters would instantly try to murder each other?
MEDRANO: A lot of them would try to murder each other.
KIRKMAN: We’d have to leave the Viltrumites out. They’d just try to murder everybody.
RIEGEL: I mean, I would love to hear J.K. Simmons sing.
MEDRANO: He
can sing. Did you know that?
RIEGEL: No, I did not.
KIRKMAN: J.K. Simmons can do anything. Put that down.
MEDRANO: He's on the soundtrack for one of my favorite revivals of
Guys and Dolls. It’s on Spotify. He’s amazing.
KIRKMAN: He’s the fucking yellow M&M.
MEDRANO: Yes, he is! [Laughs]
RIEGEL: Wait, what?
KIRKMAN: Has been for many years.
RIEGEL: That's amazing.
MEDRANO: The J.K. Simmons lore.
RIEGEL: We can make the show about the yellow M&M then.
KIRKMAN: That's the crossover
I want to see.
What is the most Hollywood problem you've had to deal with that your younger selves would find hilarious or baffling?
RIEGEL: I mean, a problem, maybe not, but I called up Andy Serkis’s agents and asked him to participate in my show, and that was amazing. Then he wanted to talk first, so I got on Zoom with Andy, from New Zealand, to tell him about the show and what he would be doing. Probably, my younger self would be
astounded at that.
MEDRANO: Again, not a negative — I feel like I have negatives, but we're not talking about those here.
KIRKMAN: We can’t give those to Steven. Save those for books.
MEDRANO: Similarly, growing up, my biggest show was
Invader Zim, and now, my voice director is Richard Horvitz, and he has become one of my dearest friends. I've gotten drunk with him, and I've gone to karaoke with him, and I've just been petty with him. It’s surreal. I feel like that's a Hollywood story in the sense of meeting a hero, and then that becoming a peer, and then them becoming a friend. It’s just such a full circle moment. So, if my younger self knew that I could hit up Richard and be like, “You'll never guess what this person said,” I would lose my mind. I'd be like, “Are you kidding me?”
KIRKMAN: I don't know, the murderer's row of Mark Hamill, Bruce Campbell, Peter Cullen, just the absolute legends. Michael Dorn. The people that I just worshiped as a kid, that I get to work with on
Invincible. It's just crazy. And I'm so irresponsible. I'm trying to cast Ed O'Neill in roles that he is not right for because I want to work with that guy. It will happen one day. But yeah, it's just crazy to me, working with those people. The younger me would just be like, “You're lying.”
Completely. I think it's preposterous that I get to talk to people.
KIRKMAN: I saw you talking to Steven Spielberg recently. I was like, “Man!”
MEDRANO: That's cool!
RIEGEL: Never heard of him.
What's the most “I can't believe they let us do this” moment from your career?
KIRKMAN: The guts thing in Season 4 of
Invincible, and the duration that we were allowed to do it. To Prime's credit, no notes. There was never any, “Less sound, less time,” anything. And Mitchell [Foster], one of our executives, is in the sound mixes, and he's there with us while we're going, “I need more squish there. Can we get it to be more unnerving and more haunting?” I watch that scene, and I'm just like, “I can't believe this happened.”
That's also a crazy, crazy sequence that is phenomenal.
KIRKMAN: [Laughs] Thank you.
RIEGEL: Inspired by what you said, we had a sequence where our characters fly up a dragon's asshole and through his intestines into his stomach, and seeing that come to life and having meetings with artists who were like, “How are we going to get the lining of the anus and the intestinal lining to look dragony?” and “What does a dragon's anus look like?” and having those serious conversations with artists is pretty special.
MEDRANO: We have a sequence in Season 3, so I can't reveal what it is, but people will see in October, that
I think is cool. It's so funny because I was like, “I know this is raunchy,” but I just thought, “This is a sleek music video. It's so cool.” Then seeing people react to it… Brandon Rogers, who is our main character, is known for doing outlandish, crude, he's-naked-in-the-street comedy, and seeing
him be like, “That was a lot,” I was like, “Really? It was a lot to
you?” Then, the fact that Prime is letting us put that out on their platform.
So yeah, we push the boundary on the horny content in Season 3 of
Helluva Boss. I'm excited, though. It's a really cool music video. But yeah, it's definitely intense, I guess, for some people.
I cannot wait. I'm going to bring up Annecy because we're all here, and I love this festival. It's amazing how much it champions animation. Talk a little bit about being here and like what this festival means to each of you.
RIEGEL: I've only been once before this, but in addition to it obviously being a platform for artists who would never get as visible, showing off some of their work, I think it's just a great way for animation people to get together. I get to see all my friends here and meet new people. Most of us live in Los Angeles, who work in this business, and we don't ever see each other because we're isolated in our own little corners. But here, we get to just hang out and be regular people for a few days and enjoy the outdoors, which is also something that the animators are not used to.
MEDRANO: Enjoying the heat right now, which is horrible, actually.
RIEGEL: I love the social aspect.
We're on the same page.
MEDRANO: This is my third year. Obviously, it's gorgeous here. I will say, the lake is just so pretty. The Alps. I just like the scenery, so I like existing in this place. But yeah, every year it gets a little busier. Every year gets more inspiring. This is the first year I've gotten to see some screening stuff, and it's
crazy to see what everyone's making. It's cool to see the work in progress of feature films and things like that, because most people aren't privy to that. I think it's just a great place to make connections with other artists and to meet people. There are a lot of students, and so it's a good vibe. It's very artsy.
RIEGEL: I’m just excited to make art again. It's good.
Next time, stay a little longer.
KIRKMAN: I am learning that.
The Minds Behind 'Invincible,' 'Hazbin Hotel,' and 'Vox Machina' Share Their Favorite Behind-the-Scenes Moments
"It's not about necessarily hitting numbers or meeting benchmarks."
What's the funniest example of fans noticing something you did not intend and then making you wonder if they were right?
RIEGEL: In the opening title sequence for
The Mighty Nein, one of our characters has six fingers. [Laughs] The fans noticed that, and we did not. So, we've tried to retcon it and be like, “No, that was intentional…” for some reason. We still haven’t figured out why, but we’re working on it.
KIRKMAN: There are little Easter eggs that our animators and people will put in that I don't notice until the fans notice sometimes. There was a quarter from the Atom Eve special that Atom Eve made with her friend Val on it, and they put that in a vending machine that some security guards were using, and the fans were like, “Oh man, the Val quarter!” And I was like, “Oh, the Val quarter!” Didn't know they put that in there.
There is a lot of talk now about IP universes and franchises, but your work started from specific voices and weird ideas. How do you protect the original strangeness once the machine around it gets bigger?
MEDRANO: Again, at least from my experience, I've been pretty lucky with Prime not really making us change, and not going, “Oh, you should do it like this.” It's an example of the big machine really just going, “Just make it good,” and we're like, “Okay!” To me, that's been my experience so far, and I've appreciated it because I'm very stubborn.
I don't mind the notes. Sometimes the notes are really, really helpful. But I'm also someone who, getting any kind of note, I'm just like, “No, because this is important for X, Y, Z.” But sometimes it does force you to sit back and go, “Okay, where's this coming from? Why is it being perceived that way? Maybe we do need to tweak it so that something's clearer,” or whatever, if I want to justify its existence or something.
I've spoken to a lot of creators who say that when they get great notes, they really appreciate it. They don't appreciate when someone's writing a note just to write a note.
MEDRANO: Sometimes those feel like the episodes that are the most figured out. It's just like, “Oh, well, I gotta say
something.” Which I get.
RIEGEL: It’s felt all day today that we are saying nice things about our execs because they're standing right there…
MEDRANO: I mean, that is true. [Laughs] We don't have to stretch it that hard, though.
RIEGEL: It’s actually true. They've been super supportive. They never made a note that wasn't from a good place. I think when you're young, and you're just trying to get your show going, you just want it on the air. You just want someone to see something. But now that we've all had shows on for multiple seasons and stuff, I think we've settled into a place, at least I have, where it's not about necessarily hitting numbers or meeting benchmarks. Now, it's just about telling good stories. If they're good enough, the people will show up. You don’t have to play to get an audience; you just have to play to make something good and hope the audience finds you.
KIRKMAN: I'll also add that, aside from the freedom we get from Prime, you can also have the pressure of a big audience and knowing that your show is going to be out there, people are going to be responding to it, people are going to be giving feedback, and that can kind of get to you after a while if you're not careful. But the beauty of animation is that we're so far ahead that we're working on multiple seasons at a time, so if somebody has a comment or a concern or some kind of opinion over something we've done, we're usually eight to 16 episodes ahead of them. So it’s like, “Well, they’ll like what we’re doing. It’ll be fine!”
It's important
not to let that stuff influence you, because I think there's a purity of what you start with, and maintaining that is very important. I'm thankful for the fact that the schedule of animation helps you preserve that.
Animation has become a place where adult stories can be massive, emotional, and visually outrageous. What can animation do for your storytelling that live-action still can't?
MEDRANO: Speaking for me, my characters just couldn't exist in live action without looking terrifying. What I like, and what I pride myself on with my shows, is I like having people gain empathy or attraction or whatever they feel towards these weird-looking characters. Like, I feel like I've done my job when people are crying over our lanky, barn owl-looking demon guy, or a little lizard-looking monster. The fact that people think Angel Dust is hot is really impressive to me. I was like, “I did my job,” because I deliberately was like, “I want to make a really weird-looking cartoon character the sexiest character on my show.” And I feel like I succeeded, considering all the fan art I've seen. [Laughs]
So, I feel like that, to me, could never exist in live action, the way my characters look and the fun. Because I do think animated characters, it’s why people like anthro characters and stuff, is that you can kind of project anything into them, because they don't necessarily look like something, like a person equivalent. You can kind of put yourself into it in a way that you can't always in live action because live action is actors. You can love their stories they tell, but you don't always see yourself in the actors themselves.
RIEGEL: In a weird way, I feel like animation makes the stories that we tell more
real. If we were to tell them in live action, all of us, we would have to be worried so much about how to realize something, and make it, and make it look realistic, and make it not look like a cheap special effect. In animation, you don't have to do any of that. You can just focus on characters and story, and it makes your world more real, even though it is not.
KIRKMAN: For me, I can say that doing the scope of a big epic superhero story is nearly impossible to do in live action on a television budget, and so we get that benefit. But the freedom of storytelling that comes from doing animation is even more nuanced to that, because we can do an episode of
Invincible where Mark goes to the moon and has a five-minute conversation, and then also goes out into the jungle and does this, and finds a guy in the city, and goes to so many different locations. You could maybe build a live-action show around a conversation on the moon into a special episode that takes place on the moon, but to be able to just ping pong back and forth and have the freedom of following the muse and telling the story however you want to tell it, and then kind of bending the show around that is something that would be just absolutely impossible to do in live action. So, aside from the scope and scale, it's also just the very nature of how we tell stories in
Invincible that is dependent on the animation medium.
Invincible,
Hazbin Hotel, and
The Legend of Vox Machina are streaming now on Prime Video. Stay tuned to Collider for more updates on their upcoming seasons.
