Christian theology thread for Christians - Deus homo factus est naturam erante, mundus renovatus est a Christo regnante

[marlimar]

help me to discharge from distractions and to focus on the Christ and His love for us.

It's easy to take the air, rotation of the Earth, etc. for granted and jump to the crucifixion, which is fine; I find it humbling to acknowledge that God is constantly at work keeping this whole universe going for his ends.

Distractions are plenty and the rituals that Catholics participate in I can see pushing your mind to focus on God, carrying a rosary to remind you of the call to constant prayer, sure.

Introducing Mary as worthy of prayer to and the hubris of claiming the power to know who is and isn't sainted along with the notion of purgatory is where the heresy comes in.

Adding steps to salvation when we are told to work on our salvation with fear and trembling is what I take particularly affronting (confession of sins to a man), when the only thing we are told to do in public is our declaration of faith in Christ's perfect life, as the Son of God, killed for our sins and raised from the dead to reign with The Father forever.

Generally, I take it literally when we are told to do things in private, like prayer, which is why I generally only offer praise / thanksgivings rather than prayer requests in church.

 

[24nagging]

Yeah, it's women's influence currently making Russia

kinda, Russia has a very low birth rate
Russia is not the greatest of examples because they reject liberalism. Think of Germany or France or the UK. Women have been given power over there, they maintain said power, and they are running those countries to the ground. Of course that it is multifactorial, but this is not rocket science, women shouldn't be in politics (as Saint Paul says!)

I don't know where you live

I guess you live in an area with no nightclubs and women don't show cleavage or tight pants
Get real, women have been sexually liberated to an egregious degree

Introducing Mary as worthy of prayer

so your parents aren't worthy of prayer? your friends aren't worthy of prayer? Prayer is a form of communication, not worship per se. You protestants only have access to prayer as a mode of communication to God because you have dispensed with the Sacraments, but we Catholics have access to greater forms of prayer (aka sacrifice and oblation)
So yes, we pray to Mary because she is the Mother of God and Queen of Heaven, and as such she has privilege access to his Son and King, making her communication to him more effective.
Mary is worthy of prayer because anyone is worthy of prayer

Adding steps to salvation when we are told to work on our salvation with fear and trembling

we do not hold that our salvation comes from works, our salvation comes from faith alone. That Faith leads us to and is manifested in good works, as Saint James tells us.
Confession is just the means by which we get our sins absolved, since Christ himself gave that power to the Apostles and their successors. And what joy it is, to know that we have an effective means by which Christ himself, through the person of the Confessor, forgives us of our sins against him.

 

[JeanRob1]

Think of Germany or France or the UK. Women have been given power over there, they maintain said power, and they are running those countries to the ground. Of course that it is multifactorial, but this is not rocket science, women shouldn't be in politics (as Saint Paul says!)

That's not the case here in France. There's no female president, female politicians are doing the same thing that their male counterparts and they aren't maintaining any power over the rest of the country. Women here vote in the same way as the rest of the country, they aren't necessarily working for the "sexual liberation", and they aren't responsible for it.
Here in France, pornography legalization was made by men, abortion was voted by a almost men-only parliament, birth control was legalized by men, and women were agreeing (or not) in the same proportion than men.

 

[24nagging]

That's not the case here in France. There's no female president, female politicians are doing the same thing that their male counterparts and they aren't maintaining any power over the rest of the country. Women here vote in the same way as the rest of the country, they aren't necessarily working for the "sexual liberation", and they aren't responsible for it.
Here in France, pornography legalization was made by men, abortion was voted by a almost men-only parliament, birth control was legalized by men, and women were agreeing (or not) in the same proportion than men.

Simone de Beauvoir was a woman behind plenty of this stuff
get real. Abortion was, is and will be pushed primarily by women in France, and everywhere, because they are the prime beneficiaries of it, a long with sexual liberation. Legislation doesn't just come out of the blue

 

[marlimar]

o your parents aren't worthy of prayer? your friends aren't worthy of prayer? Prayer is a form of communication, not worship per se. You protestants only have access to prayer as a mode of communication to God because you have dispensed with the Sacraments, but we Catholics have access to greater forms of prayer (aka sacrifice and oblation)
So yes, we pray to Mary because she is the Mother of God and Queen of Heaven, and as such she has privilege access to his Son and King, making her communication to him more effective.
Mary is worthy of prayer because anyone is worthy of prayer

>muh whatabout's... you worship a lady that has never heard a single word you've ever prayed to her, sucks to suck.

Confession is just the means by which we get our sins absolved, since Christ himself gave that power to the Apostles and their successors. And what joy it is, to know that we have an effective means by which Christ himself, through the person of the Confessor, forgives us of our sins against him.

These are the extra steps I find egregious.

 

[24nagging]

you worship a lady that has never heard a single word you've ever prayed to her

you are talking about the Mother of our Lord, to whom he loved very dearly. If she is not in Heaven, and thus in direct communication with God, then we should despair for no one is
also nobody worships Mary

These are the extra steps I find egregious.

these extra steps are given by Christ

 

[marlimar]

you are talking about the Mother of our Lord, to whom he loved very dearly. If she is not in Heaven, and thus in direct communication with God, then we should despair for no one is
also nobody worships Mary

these extra steps are given by Christ

I'm talking about a mortal woman that has no idea who you are nor likely cares.

Those extra steps are not added by Christ, you will held to account for your lies, sucks to suck. You confess your sins to God in private prayer, or as part of your witness testimony to help others. The volcel in the box has no power or regard for your soul or he would be fruitful and multiplying.

 

[24nagging]

'm talking about a mortal woman that has no idea who you are nor likely cares.

who is in Heaven because of her magnificent virtue and grace of God

Those extra steps are not added by Christ

Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father has sent me, even so send I you. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said unto them, Receive you the Holy Spirit: Whosoever's sins you remit, they are remitted unto them; and whosoever's sins you retain, they are retained. (John 20:21-23)

Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of faith shall deliver the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he has committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that you may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much. (James 5:14-16)

So not only is it something Christ gave to the Apostles to whom he sent to the nations, it is also something attested in the early Christian community, and has been done to our present day.
Confession is an Apostolic Sacrament

 

[marlimar]

who is in Heaven because of her magnificent virtue and grace of God

Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father has sent me, even so send I you. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said unto them, Receive you the Holy Spirit: Whosoever's sins you remit, they are remitted unto them; and whosoever's sins you retain, they are retained. (John 20:21-23)

Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of faith shall deliver the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he has committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that you may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much. (James 5:14-16)

So not only is it something Christ gave to the Apostles to whom he sent to the nations, it is also something attested in the early Christian community, and has been done to our present day.
Confession is an Apostolic Sacrament

He's talking about the Holy Spirit to remit sins to, not a only human man. The Lord forgives the sin, not a only human man.

I see why the split happened, having to deal with obstinate fools tests the quickness of our anger and only creates enmity. Have fun believing what you want, it doesn't affect me. Enjoy purgatory or wherever they've convinced you you're going.

 

[Local Farmer]

Also, this is anecdotal, but still: my friend, who is in spiritual search was considering joining Catholic church and people he met there were... Well... Similar to the stereotype in that regard. A lot of aggressive ethno-nationalists, a lot of general hatred towards women as well. What personally stood out to me was condemning abortions while actively supporting wars. Basically these guys seemed to be death and torture obsessed, just like this dude in our thread was saying something about women getting rightful punishment through painful birth, some of them were talking about how women's duty is to die in childbirth and man's duty is to do get murdered in another gay ass war "for your country". I don't know how can anyone have such a poisoned heart and call themselves a Christian.

Worst part is that Catholics are a small minority here which makes this amount of weirdos a bit alarming. I don't know more details, such as whether priests were aware of this or not (seemed like they were but just didn't care?), but my friend went to various groups and churches from different cities and he was really disappointed by encountering some of the worst individuals in his spiritual journey ever. There seemed to be an extreme "anti-sjw" trend among them, for lack of better term. Anything that isn't this batshit mindset is "too liberal

As I say often, the Church is a big place with a lot of opinions, and even more opinions to go around, and more converts are joining with a lot more opinions.

As I was talking about in the KKK, the only real concern for me as a cradle is when they stop disagreeing and start entering open rebellion within the Church.

Maybe one day I’ll get blasted and give all my unwarranted thoughts on the types of new converts on here

 

[Soycast II]

The Lord forgives the sin

Catholics agree.

 

[marlimar]

Catholics agree.

They have extra steps or hoops to jump through instead of going to the Holy Spirit in your heart and repenting, it's all so very performative and it tires me.

 

[fresh pair of socks]

They have extra steps or hoops to jump through instead of going to the Holy Spirit in your heart and repenting, it's all so very performative and it tires me.

The alternative is the Evangelical method: do whatever you want all the time and say God forgives you because He knows what's in your heart. That is performative.

 

[Soycast II]

They have extra steps or hoops to jump through instead of going to the Holy Spirit in your heart and repenting, it's all so very performative and it tires me.

Well that’s assuming the Holy Spirit can’t work through people. We are baptized by other people, and we can confess our sins to other people. They may say the words, but God is the one doing the forgiving.

(Also, while we can still go directly to God in prayer for forgiveness, there’s no way of knowing for sure if we are forgiven. (perfect contrition.)Believe me, I do it every day. It would be a blessing if I could confess my sins.)

 

[24nagging]

He's talking about the Holy Spirit to remit sins to, not a only human man. The Lord forgives the sin, not a only human man.

we don't think the priest forgives, we believe the Holy Spirit thru the priest forgives the sins, like Jesus said in John. So we half way agree
you still haven't proven that this was not done in the early Church

 

[Venial Sneeds]

Protestants assume we all have a mind capable of reading the scripture and sharing how it interacts with our personal testimony, Catholics assume everyone is stupid and are milk-Christians with no teeth or even appetite for meat, so the mass must be told things in very simple terms

I think you put it very nicely - Nothing stops Catholics for coming together and organizing a Bible study. The problem could be that although this would be recommended, it's not mandatory in the way The Liturgy is mandatory, and so most people just take the priests' observations during the homily and stay there.

We Catholics might answer you "The Bible study you started 5 years ago will only retread the steps of 2000 years of Theology", but you would astutely ask "And have you read these theologians?". Most haven't.

Catholics seem to just make what is already hard enough (Loving God with your whole heart, mind, body, soul / Loving your neighbor as God first loved you) even harder with rituals, icons and a whole lot of goofy stuff

Catholics do a lot of stuff which may seem extra to the Baptist perspective: "Are Christ and The Bible not enough?", but this perspective is shared by the atheists: "Is being a good person not enough?". The problem is not in what you do, but why you do it.

I'm talking about a mortal woman that has no idea who you are nor likely cares.

This is an excellent opportunity to talk about the nature of Sainthood, a topic in which I mostly see people talking past each other. I'll try my hand at it graphically.

 

[Soycast II]

This is an excellent opportunity to talk about the nature of Sainthood, a topic in which I mostly see people talking past each other. I'll try my hand at it graphically.

It should also be noted that the Book of Tobit probably has the best biblical proof of the saints praying for us, however that unfortunately got removed with the reformation.

 

[marlimar]

I think you put it very nicely - Nothing stops Catholics for coming together and organizing a Bible study. The problem could be that although this would be recommended, it's not mandatory in the way The Liturgy is mandatory, and so most people just take the priests' observations during the homily and stay there.

We Catholics might answer you "The Bible study you started 5 years ago will only retread the steps of 2000 years of Theology", but you would astutely ask "And have you read these theologians?". Most haven't.


Catholics do a lot of stuff which may seem extra to the Baptist perspective: "Are Christ and The Bible not enough?", but this perspective is shared by the atheists: "Is being a good person not enough?". The problem is not in what you do, but why you do it.


This is an excellent opportunity to talk about the nature of Sainthood, a topic in which I mostly see people talking past each other. I'll try my hand at it graphically.

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I appreciate your genuine interest in following Christ, I share that desire to shed the sin of this worldly body step by step, as best I can in the numbered days I have remaining. We are approaching the same desired destination in different ways; it seems to me. I hold to the scripture as best I can, you interpret intercession differently, thankfully neither of us will sit in judgement of the other; as much as I would love for salvation to be corporate, it has always been deeply personal. We can only follow The Great Commission in the ways and with the gifts God has given us.

This whole debate is made even more foolish because I'm a pre-determinist, and I can't even claim to be saved because it is ultimately God's sovereign choice, I just follow the scripture as best I can now that I have a genuine interest in living for God and not for myself.

 

[Venial Sneeds]

I'm a pre-determinist, and I can't even claim to be saved because it is ultimately God's sovereign choice, I just follow the scripture as best I can now that I have a genuine interest in living for God and not for myself.

IDK what pre-determinism entails but that's interesting, I think I agree. I don't think I'm saved yet, but Jesus said to trust He'd do it. You could say we just have faith He will.

 

[GenderCop]

(Also, while we can still go directly to God in prayer for forgiveness, there’s no way of knowing for sure if we are forgiven. (perfect contrition.)Believe me, I do it every day. It would be a blessing if I could confess my sins.)

I don't know as much as ppl in this thread, but I do know one reason Martin Luther finally gave up on confession as a sacrament (he kept 2, got rid of 5) is that he thought nobody could really know all their sins.

I always think of the liturgy "what I have done, and what I have failed to do"--I think that basically covers it.
But if INTENT is equally important, that could be a problem, because I agree we do not always understand our true intentions until much later, if ever.