Christian theology thread for Christians - Deus homo factus est naturam erante, mundus renovatus est a Christo regnante

[Preacher ✝]

The Wisdom of Bl. Fulton Sheen

Day 365 - With the crib seen as a tabernacle and the child as a kind of host, then the home becomes a living temple of God. The sacristan of that sanctuary is the mother, who never permits the tabernacle lamp of faith to go out.

 

[Chicha Drinker]

So from what ive seen, co-redemptrix is an idea that is approached and poked from time to time, but has been stopped from being accepted as dogma multiple times for a variety of reasons. And it seems to me that this is one of the most contested topics in the catholic church in regards to fundamental theology. What are the catholic views here on the subject?

INB4, denying Mary the role of co-remeptrix doesnt mean someone is a Nestorian or is denying Jesus' divinity, seldom have i seen that argument made legitimately and not just used as a silencing mechanism.

 

[The man The only man]

Its all rather pointless pedantry IMO, and one the Orthodox Christians pagans have led the way in with how they dealt with the Iconoclasts anti-totemists. On that front, I fully agree with the Orthodox Pagan solution to such joyless doctrines. Impaled at the Stake!

One of the reasons why iconoclasm lost in Byzantium was because the supposed "saint" Irene of Athens had more love for icons than God and his words. You got this woman who did everything God forbid (filicide, false witness, promoting adultery for political gains, doing a false oath before God, misusing the church for personal gains, justifying her husbands death because he was an iconoclast and never showing any repentance for any of her sins) and she is still seen as a saint and venerated as one because she had the right opinions about a theological standpoint. This weird sanctimoniousness is even seen in your post, where you agree with killing iconoclasts because they dared to harm your sculptures and paintings. One of the main problems with sainthood in general is that it gets abused for political gains. Seemingly a lot of Christian and Orthodox saints are venerated simply because they agreed with certain theological standpoints of the church

Iconoclasts forget this. They also forget the importance of having mortal examples of a good Christian life. Many of the Saints died for the grace of Christ, and should that not be remembered in ways more "Concrete" then simple letters on a page?

I think you are simplifying it because creating a picture/story/statue of a devout someone isn't a problem in itself but hosting feasts, prayers and celebrations for that person (in a religious context) could be a problem. You can use these people as good examples in sermons but it shouldn't cross that line any further.

 

[Bagger 293]

the theological implications of calling the Mother of God a mere "hebrew woman" are massive and blatant

Yeah but nobody said that and you had to add in the word "mere" to make the statement offensive just like the other guy had to do with "random". Yes, it's about context, like all language; if two people say "Jesus was a man," one in reply to a monophysite and the other in reply to an Arian, then one says it in affirmation of the trinity implying "also a man" and the other in denial implying "only a man" - maybe this is what you're getting at.

But it seems pretty obvious to me the OP said it to contrast Mary's human nature to God's divine nature implying "ancient Hebrew woman and not God" because he thinks praying to Mary is idolatry, not "ancient Hebrew woman and nothing else" which is a baldly antagonistic reading. And you hopefully don't disagree that Mary was not divine. So where is the disagreement? It's that you think praying to Mary isn't idolatry and the rest is tone-policing and trying to get him to say something actually bad about her.

 

[marlimar]

So from what ive seen, co-redemptrix is an idea that is approached and poked from time to time, but has been stopped from being accepted as dogma multiple times for a variety of reasons. And it seems to me that this is one of the most contested topics in the catholic church in regards to fundamental theology. What are the catholic views here on the subject?

INB4, denying Mary the role of co-remeptrix doesnt mean someone is a Nestorian or is denying Jesus' divinity, seldom have i seen that argument made legitimately and not just used as a silencing mechanism.

Isaiah 42:8

I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

I've never understood how "Co-redemption" could ever have been an accepted thing, but that's why I'm not Catholic. Praying to a dead woman is akin to me yelling at the television when my sportsball team has upset me.

Yeah but nobody said that and you had to add in the word "mere" to make the statement offensive

Eve added words to Satan's lie:

Genesis 3:3 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die

Why she would add words onto God's testimony is a puzzling thought, maybe since the serpent was only the second creature (God was in the Garden but is the Creator) that she had spoken to, she enjoyed the gossip, or she thought that since she was able to touch the fruit and not die, she wouldn't die from eating it either, when God had not forbidden touching the fruit, she just made that up whole cloth.

The enemy is known as a deceiver and adding words to a testimony is certainly deceiving, praying to saints or any dead man besides the risen Christ Jesus, whose name is above all names is fruitless as the Holy Spirit is the helper of Christ, who is one with the father. The Holy Ghost doesn't intercede when being called on the name of the saints, Mary or any other mortal.

 

[24nagging]

you had to add in the word "mere"

this is very pedantic
I put mere before the words hebrew woman in quotes, which implicitly means that mere is not part of the original phrase "hebrew woman", put in there to emphasize the absurdity of the title given by Candlelight, not add to it.
And indeed, when we debate this absurd title we are debating about the merits of Mary as the greatest intercessor to God on our behalf, her role in salvation history, and her dignity as Mother of God. In other words, we are refuting the objection that praying to her is idolatrous.
The way we refer to thing revels what we think of those things. If I say "stinky bum" instead of "homeless guy" you can infer that I don't like homeless people. Same thing here but with the Holy Virgin Mary
In a nutshell: we are arguing about theology via the titles we give to Mary. I do admit it requires a certain level of abstraction (like any topic in theology).

The Holy Ghost doesn't intercede when being called on the name of the saints, Mary or any other mortal.

quite the contrary. Praying to the Saints is like when your friends prays to God on your behalf, with the difference that the Saints are in heaven with God and your friend is not, which makes their prayers more effective, since the prayer of a just man is more meritorious than that of a unjust man.

 

[Bagger 293]

Dawg if you're not gonna read my posts don't bother replying

 

[marlimar]

quite the contrary. Praying to the Saints is like when your friends prays to God on your behalf, with the difference that the Saints are in heaven with God and your friend is not, which makes their prayers more effective, since the prayer of a just man is more meritorious than that of a unjust man.

You can pray to dead folks all you want, I will speak with the living Christ, through the Holy Spirit who has indwelt in my heart, our results will differ.

 

[Amerikaner Teddybär]

You can pray to dead folks all you want, I will speak with the living Christ, through the Holy Spirit who has indwelt in my heart, our results will differ.

>He doesn't know the Saints have Eternal Life in Heaven

 

[24nagging]

Dawg if you're not gonna read my posts don't bother replying

I say the same thing to you

 

[The man The only man]

Praying to the Saints is like when your friends prays to God on your behalf, with the difference that the Saints are in heaven with God and your friend is not, which makes their prayers more effective, since the prayer of a just man is more meritorious than that of a unjust man.

1. How do you know that they are in heaven, are just and/or meritorious?
2. How does a prayer (to God) get stronger if you direct it towards a saint. Do prayers need to be certified by saints for God to give (more) attention to you or your prayers?
3. How do you know that the saint will bother with your prayer and direct it towards God, isn't praying to God directly a 100% guaranteed way for Him to receive it, so why bother with praying to saints at all?
4. This is barely disgusted polytheism.
5. There are recognized saints that are fictional like Mary of Egypt (source: one monk that said "trust me bro"). So, people who pray to fictional saints, what happens to their prayers (insert joke about atheists praying to Santa)?
6. Why do you phrase it like we are children who are too retarded to understand prayer?

 

[marlimar]

>He doesn't know the Saints have Eternal Life in Heaven

Isaiah 42:8

I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

Catholic Bibles must have a cute way of dancing around this quite obvious statement by Christ.

 

[Amerikaner Teddybär]

Isaiah 42:8

I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

Catholic Bibles must have a cute way of dancing around this quite obvious statement by Christ.

Saints aren't graven images as they are not pagan idols but those that have been made holy by God. I can also use a biblical basis via Moses' Bronze Snake in the Book of Numbers.

 

[marlimar]

Saints aren't graven images as they are not pagan idols but those that have been made holy by God. I can also use a biblical basis via Moses' Bronze Snake in the Book of Numbers.

I don't know if you're intentionally misunderstanding, but the bible explains how to pray and who that prayer is directed towards, saints aren't mentioned. We are told to pray to the Heavenly Father, who is set apart as holy, for the sake of his son Jesus who is also holy as he and the father are one.

I suggest you stop adding steps if you want your prayers to be heard by the God you proclaim to worship.

 

[Amerikaner Teddybär]

I don't know if you're intentionally misunderstanding, but the bible explains how to pray and who that prayer is directed towards, saints aren't mentioned. We are told to pray to the Heavenly Father, who is set apart as holy, for the sake of his son Jesus who is also holy as he and the father are one.

I suggest you stop adding steps if you want your prayers to be heard by the God you proclaim to worship.

We do worship the Trinitarian God just as yourselves. Saint Paul has written many times for others to pray on his behalf. (See 1 Tim. 2:1–4) Plus the Book of Revelations literally mentions the saints in Chapter 8 verses 3-4 where Saint John the Apostle sees “[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God”.

Plus the Early Christians also prayed for saintly intercession, such as Saint Clement of Alexandria, Origen, Saint Cyril of Jerusalem, Saint John Chrysostom, and many others.

 

[marlimar]

We do worship the Trinitarian God just as yourselves. Saint Paul has written many times for others to pray on his behalf. (See 1 Tim. 2:1–4) Plus the Book of Revelations literally mentions the saints in Chapter 8 verses 3-4 where Saint John the Apostle sees “[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God”.

Plus the Early Christians also prayed for saintly intercession, such as Saint Clement of Alexandria, Origen, Saint Cyril of Jerusalem, Saint John Chrysostom, and many others.

Group prayer is encouraged, Paul wanted the churches to pray to God the Father on behalf of his son Jesus, while he was imprisoned. Paul did not instruct his churches to pray to saints or Mary for him while he was in prison, they could do nothing to help him, God the Father could.

 

[Preacher ✝]

Its about to be 2026 and somehow we're still dealing with people who dont understand the concept of intercession...

 

[Neverender]

This year, may God bless and save us all, be we holy or unholy, ignorant or wise, high or low: may the light of His grace and mercy illumine every soul.

 

[marlimar]

Its about to be 2026 and somehow we're still dealing with people who dont understand the concept of intercession...

Perhaps this will be the year we respectively stop casting pearls before swine?

 

[TroonsDid911]

Some janny deleted my "Republican Jesus" video because "Don't shit up the thread with irrelevant nonsense" so I will elaborate.

I do not identify as Christian and I do not believe he was literally God incarnate but I do believe a real human being likely named Jesus existed and made such an impact he started a religion that changed the course of history.

Most of the old testament is kike propaganda but I find the book of Ecclesiastics and the character of King Solomon to be fascinating. He was the wisest and most powerful king of Israel and he sought truth above all else. He denied himself nothing, enjoying all kinds of pleasure but still seeking wisdom and trying to find the ultimate meaning behind everything. In the end, Ecclesiasties is his ultimate confession of what he found. Vanity., meaninglessness, a "striving after the wind". He realised all his struggles to find meaning and all his accomplishments meant nothing. He would die, poor people would die, animals would die. He was no different then an animal because in the end he would die too. He laments over the vanity that himself and mankind struggle over. It is probably the most gripping philosophical book in the Bible that everyone should read.

Ecclesiasties 3:16-22 - Some random translation:

"I took another good look at what’s going on: The very place of judgment—corrupt! The place of righteousness—corrupt! I said to myself, “God will judge righteous and wicked.” There’s a right time for every thing, every deed—and there’s no getting around it. I said to myself regarding the human race, “God’s testing the lot of us, showing us up as nothing but animals.” Humans and animals come to the same end—humans die, animals die. We all breathe the same air. So there’s really no advantage in being human. None. Everything’s smoke. We all end up in the same place—we all came from dust, we all end up as dust. Nobody knows for sure that the human spirit rises to heaven or that the animal spirit sinks into the earth. So I made up my mind that there’s nothing better for us men and women than to have a good time in whatever we do—that’s our lot. Who knows if there’s anything else to life?"

In short, suck my balls Janny. Everything you do is a "vanity and striving after the wind". How about you ban all the Sharty users and Reddit fags shitting up all the other threads on this site?