Is gender identity real?

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Mars Attacks! dijo:
Most third genders rely on sex stereotypes and come from societies with very strict gender roles.
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One non-western society where transsexualism was deemed normal was this Injun tribe in South America that would make one of their sons a girl if they had like 5 sons and no girls to marry off before the Spanish came.
 
Ultimately if someone wants to transition, that's none of my business. It's their body and their life. :powerlevel: As a dysphoric person who chooses to deal with it in other ways though, I think giving out permanent alterations that may or may not help should be done with a bit more caution. Generally to get hormones and surgery a person has to be in therapy for at least a year, but plenty of gender therapists are happy to let them do the minimum number of sessions (one a month or less) and just assume that they know what they want, without encouraging them to question WHY they want it or if it's really going to solve their problem.
Puppet Pal Clem dijo:
yeah them suicide rates aren't necessarily suggesting this
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This is part of why I'm critical of transition. Dysphoria isn't always solved by treatment. You "fix" one thing, then you start fixating on something else. Eventually you're left with things that can't be changed and that's too much for some people. I'm not advocating "pray away the gay" but sometimes the best way to be happy is to make peace with the hand you were dealt in life.
 
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It's true, if there was a way to stop dysphoria with drug treatment and coping mechanisms, i'd be for it, because feeling like there's something wrong your body isn't pleasant. There's no way (at least not in the near future) to fully turn a man into a woman biologically, so transitioning doesn't help a ton.
I'm a little hesitant to say publicly that I think being trans should be cured, in fear of being seen as a horrible person who hates trannies or something like that.
 
KiwisAreCute dijo:
I'm a little hesitant to say publicly that I think being trans should be cured, in fear of being seen as a horrible person who hates trannies or something like that.
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well, that depends on how you word it. if you're saying "i think that trans people should have the option to undergo treatment in order to make them more comfortable as their biological sex if they want to", then yeah, that's fine and i don't think any rational person could get mad at you for it. but if you're either coming from it at an angle like "this makes me personally uncomfortable and i don't want people like this to exist" or "the only treatment available for trans people should be to make them not be trans" then that's.. more than a little questionable.

:powerlevel: i have a hormone imbalance and i could never picture myself as comfortable in my body before i was put on testosterone (i'm a man but i had very feminine features/went through a puberty more similar to a biological womans puberty than a mans) and i don't think any amount of medication that didn't fix my feminine sexual characteristics would help the way i was feeling. i'd much rather be how i am today than drugged up so much that i didn't care.
 
Puppet Pal Clem dijo:
How about reality?

A gay person can get as many dicks as they want shoved up their butt, but you cannot change your biological sex.
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This thread is kinda veering off topic a bit, so I won't really go too deep into this but I don't think anyone is suggesting that transitioning 'changes someone's biological make-up.' That's what people who are against the idea of transitioning say that it is to make their platform seem like the only reasonable side of the debate.

The purpose of transitioning is to alleviate gender dysphoria, which it undeniably does and tons of research on this has provided evidence that in most cases yes, it does help a lot. Nobody is saying that their biological make-up post-transition is identical to that of a woman who was biologically born a woman. It's more about being able to look in the mirror and seeing a woman, and trying to have the world perceive them as a woman in order to combat their dysphoria. Depression rates are remarkably higher amongst those who do not pass or believe that they do not pass.

Puppet Pal Clem dijo:
yeah them suicide rates aren't necessarily suggesting this
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That's because treatment of transgendered people, while better than a few years ago, still has a road to go.
For starters the suicide rates of transgendered people take along anyone who's been treated in any way shape or form for gender identity disorders. That includes many people who did not transition, and you'll find that most of those that commit suicide ARE in fact those who either did not transition or whose transition did not help in their passability. A lot of the stunningly high depression and suicide rates also tends to come from them experiencing discrimination, treatment refusal, assault, and other nasty things.

Transition is for many the fix that they need. It's just not the right end-goal for anyone suffering from gender identity disorders. It's something that should definitely be treated on a case by case basis, but pretending that it never helps and that it shouldn't be allowed seems more like a personal objection to it than anything to do with your concern for others. If you said 'transition shouldn't be the first any only thing we grab for when it comes to treating gender identity disorders' I'd agree wholeheartedly. (though it bears mentioning that in most places, it's not as easy to achieve a medically assisted transition as people make it out to be. Many places require you to live as a your preferred gender for a few years before you're allowed to be put on hormone treatment), but I definitely don't agree that medical transition is something we shouldn't be making use of, when there's good medical evidence that suggests that it in many cases helps a lot.
 
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shibbolethal dijo:
well, that depends on how you word it. if you're saying "i think that trans people should have the option to undergo treatment in order to make them more comfortable as their biological sex if they want to", then yeah, that's fine and i don't think any rational person could get mad at you for it. but if you're either coming from it at an angle like "this makes me personally uncomfortable and i don't want people like this to exist" or "the only treatment available for trans people should be to make them not be trans" then that's.. more than a little questionable.
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Oh no, people should be able to do what they think is best. I've never felt uncomfortable with trans people,and I think people should be able to decide what kind of treatment they want. I just know some trans people can't even get a surgery for some medical reason or another, and that's horrible. It makes me want there to be some sort of alternative for people who can't transition. People who think transitioning is the best choice for them should be able to decide for themselves; it's really none of my business.
[Edit] Also, some people just can't afford, or are scared to have a surgery. Surgery for some people has led to people feeling very happy with themselves, but I feel there should be something for the people who can't have that.
 
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OtterParty dijo:
into women and claiming to be mtf. level of interest in transitioning may vary
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It's just hilarious to me on a personal level because when I was in high school, sometimes my guy friends and I would joke that we were lesbians, because we were men who were attracted to women.
 
Alec Benson Leary dijo:
It's just hilarious to me on a personal level because when I was in high school, sometimes my guy friends and I would joke that we were lesbians, because we were men who were attracted to women.
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Well, since "male lesbians" tend to have some form of developmental or emotional delay, this seems to be taking the joke too literally, and a world that is stupid enough to humor them.
 
Alec Benson Leary dijo:
Can someone please explain this particular craziness to me?
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I remember years ago, my mom had someone in one of her art groups who was pretty obviously trans - but interestingly, like Brianna Wu was, an Autogynephiliac. TL;DR (s)he's now one of the "Cotton Ceiling" crowd who claim that lesbians who don't want to fuck MTF trannies are inherently transphobic.

I bring this up because thanks to the Tumblrifcation of gender identity by Social Justice Warriors (I.E. your gender is what you say it is), this is the sort of thing considered a woman now:

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....I can't imagine why any enterprising Lesbian wouldn't want a chunk of that action, can you Kiwis?

I'd probably find this less eminently mockable if this shit didn't read like a retarded version of Dr. Pyg's Dollotrons from the Batman series.
 
Male Idiot dijo:
Oh those "pray the gay away" camps do nothing. I was thinking about a chemical solution, a drug that fixes the error in the brain. Of course it may not be possible, but it would be worth investigating I think, if nothing else than to allow for an alternative choice.
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That's not really how the brain works though.
 
There is a simple test, are you turned on by dicks, vags, or both? All else is dressing.

Honestly I figure within the next 25-50 years sex-change surgery will be viewed like lobotomys are now. Unnecessary surgeries to deal with psychological/brain chemistry issuses that some chemical will fix eventually. The question is how many people will have their reputations/lives destroyed as they figure out the correct medication for the issue.
 
neverendingmidi dijo:
There is a simple test, are you turned on by dicks, vags, or both? All else is dressing.

Honestly I figure within the next 25-50 years sex-change surgery will be viewed like lobotomys are now. Unnecessary surgeries to deal with psychological/brain chemistry issuses that some chemical will fix eventually. The question is how many people will have their reputations/lives destroyed as they figure out the correct medication for the issue.
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I think the sex change will still have a big place, but simply as a fetish for those who just want to do it because it makes them horny. Jimmy will like to be whipped, Timmy likes to dress up as Pikachu to get off, and Tommy will want to be a chick with a dick.

Those that are actually feeling bad would benefit greatly from a chemical solution. The brain is basically an electric and chemical machine. Yes, it is depressing when you think about it. Nothing magical there.
 
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